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BioWare please stop with the worthless downloads!


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#151
Sylvius the Mad

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the_one_54321 wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...
You should only be comparing prices to other video game RPGs.

Why?
 
You've made an assertion, but no one's going to accept it as true unless you can support it.

Because it is the only type of comparison that will give you accurate and telling results. You don't compare the flavor of a steak to the flavor of a pear to determine which is worth more money.

You're ignoring the possibility that all of the other games are underpriced.  Or that BioWare's games are more valuable than those of other developers.

Look at a sports team.  If they sell out every single game, then their prices are too low - regardless of the prices other teams charge.

#152
the_one_54321

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Sylvius the Mad wrote...
You're ignoring the possibility that all of the other games are underpriced.  Or that BioWare's games are more valuable than those of other developers.


No, actually I've said precisely that I think typical game prices are too low. Game prices, not the DLC.

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
Look at a sports team.  If they sell out every single game, then their prices are too low - regardless of the prices other teams charge.


I disagree, as I've already outlined to you extensively, and with no stress spared on my part, what I think concerning fair price. To summarize it, yet again, without getting all long winded over it, yet again, what people are willing to pay dictates acceptable market price, not necessarily a fair price.

#153
Yrkoon

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pastypus wrote...

If you guys like paying 5 bucks for about 20 minutes of content my hats of to you. And i have a nice bridge in the desert to sell ya.enjoy

A bridge, you say?    Interesting.  For 5 bucks?    Can I call it my own?   Will it be MIne?  Will I be the legal owner of this bridge?

No?  then what kind of  point are you trying to make here?   The community is not "gullable sheep" for  buying DLCs.   We're told exactly what we'll be given in exchange for our 5 bucks.  And by the way,  RTO was Awesome.  It was   Emotional, Dramatic and thought provoking.  And oh yeah... it was fun.   And on its own, it breathed new life into my current  DA:O playthrough.  It may very well have been the best 5 bucks I've spent so far this year.

I do, however, understand the point that others (not you though) have made against DLCs.  There is something legitimately questionable  in charging for content that should  (ideally speaking) be free.  After all, many of us have enjoyed countless hours of gaming bliss playing free, downloadable mods for Neverwinter Nights.  But aside from the ideological, this is the state of the gaming industry today.    There'd be no such thing as DLCs if the gamers themselves didn't give in to their addictions and MAKE them popular and profitable.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 10 février 2010 - 12:44 .


#154
grieferbastard

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the_one_54321 wrote...
DLC isn't a market standard because it's only just started testing it's feet. It may very well become a market standard in the near future.

I know that I am an exception in terms of typical market behavior. I take it as a compliment.

I recognize percieved value, and reject it. It's a misperception in this case. It's a lot of people comparing it to movie prices and cups of coffee and not realizing the mistake they are making. The phrase "if all your friends jumped a bridge, would you do it too" is applicable here.

I have spent my money. I spent it on DA:O, and also Shale, considering that it came free with the box. I exercise both my forms of potential market influence. I spend where I think it's worth it, and I don't spend where I think it's not worth it. I believe that DLC is ultimately bad for the consumer, and so I will not support it.


The mistake I feel you are making is that you're trying to press your personal valuations on relative judgement onto other peoples justification for their decisions. It's a matter of personal priorities - fair price is determined by the market as in the consumer. It's not a fair price to you simply because you don't like the idea of DLC. You'd rather it all be bundled and priced as a single product. Good for you. For some people DLC is viewed as a seperate financial investment based on entertainment value not on cost.

It's the fundamental difference between 'how much X can I get for $5' and 'how much entertainment is worth $X'. If someone places a higher value on enjoyment than cost the basis of their metric is different. I realize you're trying to ignore that but it's a fundamental aspect of economics. What you're trying to do is discuss mathmatics but you only want to include prime numbers. Hence it's an incomplete model.

In your opinion you're not getting the bvalue out of DLC that you expect for the cost of it. You can justify that however you want; you feel the game should be more expensive but include all the content in one production cost or that $X should equate to X amount of game time. Both of which are just personal opinions. The realities of the market itself and what is and is not a good model for producing and selling games, using or not using DLC and the like are a lot more complicated than you're willing to discuss.

Which is also fine. In this current situation though what's effectively going on is that you got a game worth $80-$100 for $50 because the rest of us are perfectly happy to buy DLC and feel we are getting good value on our investment. We do want a DLC-model in the market. Prefer it even. Nature of economics, we'll all vote with our dollars and see where the cards fall.

Where you're treading on shakey ground is words like 'overpriced' and 'unreasonable'. Unless you can show me actual hard data on profit margins for the DLC that's just speculation. I can show you earnings estimates and financial projections for them however and they don't support your speculation.

Show me the actual data supporting your position and I'll bite.

#155
Guest_Semone_*

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The real problem is that they didnt made the dlc.They are parts of the game why do you think the characters respond to them. its because its the part of the game they didnt release so you pay them more money, all of dlc are done they just waiting for the time to reales them so you pay them its called monopoly bisness.

#156
TS Grey

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DLC is that added touch to somethings of a story in a game or a different way to play it than originally intended. Sure it uses similar things from the original, but that's because of coding.



Time is money and as much as the content could be free, it's an added experience. $5 is incredibly cheap, and those complaining it's not. I find it comforting they released that many for the game, especially with an expansion in the horizon.



All I have to say is I have the PS3 version of the game. I hope you can get the RTO dlc out soon so I can enjoy it before the expansion comes out. It's been a wonderful game.

#157
Yrkoon

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Semone wrote...

The real problem is that they didnt made the dlc.They are parts of the game why do you think the characters respond to them. its because its the part of the game they didnt release so you pay them more money, all of dlc are done they just waiting for the time to reales them so you pay them its called monopoly bisness.

I can assure you  that this isn't true at all.

And part of the reason why these DLCs aren't free is BECAUSE they had to pay the voice actors to come back in and speak the new lines.  (Alistair's, Wynne's and Logains to be specific.  No other characters in this game have any new lines in RTO)

#158
the_one_54321

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grieferbastard wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...
DLC isn't a market standard because it's only just started testing it's feet. It may very well become a market standard in the near future.
I know that I am an exception in terms of typical market behavior. I take it as a compliment.
I recognize percieved value, and reject it. It's a misperception in this case. It's a lot of people comparing it to movie prices and cups of coffee and not realizing the mistake they are making. The phrase "if all your friends jumped a bridge, would you do it too" is applicable here.
I have spent my money. I spent it on DA:O, and also Shale, considering that it came free with the box. I exercise both my forms of potential market influence. I spend where I think it's worth it, and I don't spend where I think it's not worth it. I believe that DLC is ultimately bad for the consumer, and so I will not support it.

The mistake I feel you are making is that you're trying to press your personal valuations on relative judgement onto other peoples justification for their decisions. It's a matter of personal priorities - fair price is determined by the market as in the consumer. It's not a fair price to you simply because you don't like the idea of DLC. You'd rather it all be bundled and priced as a single product. Good for you. For some people DLC is viewed as a seperate financial investment based on entertainment value not on cost.
It's the fundamental difference between 'how much X can I get for $5' and 'how much entertainment is worth $X'. If someone places a higher value on enjoyment than cost the basis of their metric is different. I realize you're trying to ignore that but it's a fundamental aspect of economics. What you're trying to do is discuss mathmatics but you only want to include prime numbers. Hence it's an incomplete model.
In your opinion you're not getting the bvalue out of DLC that you expect for the cost of it. You can justify that however you want; you feel the game should be more expensive but include all the content in one production cost or that $X should equate to X amount of game time. Both of which are just personal opinions. The realities of the market itself and what is and is not a good model for producing and selling games, using or not using DLC and the like are a lot more complicated than you're willing to discuss.
Which is also fine. In this current situation though what's effectively going on is that you got a game worth $80-$100 for $50 because the rest of us are perfectly happy to buy DLC and feel we are getting good value on our investment. We do want a DLC-model in the market. Prefer it even. Nature of economics, we'll all vote with our dollars and see where the cards fall.
Where you're treading on shakey ground is words like 'overpriced' and 'unreasonable'. Unless you can show me actual hard data on profit margins for the DLC that's just speculation. I can show you earnings estimates and financial projections for them however and they don't support your speculation.
Show me the actual data supporting your position and I'll bite.


Unfortunately profit margins can only be extrapolated from analysis of the business model. I did a comparions earlier which you fairly critiqued. But even with that critique, the margins have got to be far and away larger than than the original game pricing scheme. And it is this discrepancy that bothers me. Each product should be priced independantly of the others. There is no reason for there to be such an obvious huge gap in price vs content.

I am not, however, trying to force my views on others. You may have noticed that my discussion with Monica ended in my condoning her choice despite it's opposition to mine. I am, certainly, trying to convince them that they should put more thought into it than "cup of coffee costs X and DLC costs Y, so I'm definitely not being overcharged." And I think it's a perfectly fair argument to make.

#159
Emeraq

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VaeVictus X wrote...

Really? I don't think they're worthless at all. Keep em coming BioWare!


I'll take a double of what he's drinking, and keep em coming Bioware!

#160
David Gaider

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the_one_54321 wrote...
Free is perhaps going a bit too far, but it's along that line of reasoning. $5 for an hour or less is unreasonable and I'm not going to pay it. Essentially my thoughts are that you charged too little at the start and are now trying to make up profit margins with further sales. The results are painfully short bits of content for unreasonable prices.

I see the dialogue has gone further, but I'll just respond to this one point and then move on out of here. This isn't really my department, after all, so I don't want to make it seem like I'm the person to talk to with regards to making these decisions. I can, however, speak as a developer in general.

My point is that prices are set according to what people are willing to pay for things. You keep comparing the value to the price of the original, full-length game -- but it doesn't work like that. DLC isn't a full-length game. There is an upper limit to how much someone will pay for a full-length game, and that's pretty well-established and (unfortunately) hasn't changed much in many years other than to go down. Retail expansions, when they first came out, also caused a certain amount of consternation. It's smaller in comparison to the original game, but so is the potential audience -- and now there is an expectation as to what an expansion will cost, much like with a full game. DLC is still relatively new. Digital distribution allows a developer to provide content much more quickly to gamers who both want it and might still have the game on their hard drives. Should it be priced in comparison to the original game? Not any more than an expansion is.

Is it profitable? Let's hope so. That's the idea with any product we put out, isn't it? If you want to argue that a publisher should lower the price so they can sell more units and thus make a bigger profit, maybe they'll listen. But if you want to argue that the price should be lowered because you want it anyway and yet don't want to pay as much for it, I'm not sure where that's supposed to go. If enough people feel it's not worth their time, they won't buy it and the publisher would naturally need to either change the price or the content. But if we're making content that people want (which is the idea, for us developers) at a price that they feel is the equivalent purchase to a cup of coffee (the comparison, after all, is not product but what they expect to get out of that much of an expenditure) then that's what the DLC is worth. Very simple.

So the price is no more related to the amount of content than the price for the original game was. A 20-hour RPG costs as much as a 40-hour RPG. You'll have to decide for yourself if it's worth it for you, as with any game (full-length, expansion or DLC) and you're free to say it isn't and vote with your dollar -- but if your argument is that it should be cheaper simply because it's short then I can only respond by saying that's not how prices are set. Some people like to say that's unfair, but that only really applies if you have to buy it. The "if you don't like it, don't buy it" argument gets dismissed a lot around here, but I've yet to see an argument against it that doesn't smack at least a little of entitlement -- intended or not.

But that's just my two cents, much like your own. Reasoned feedback is always helpful, and I appreciate the thought you've put into your posts.

#161
TheKnave69

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What an interesting topic. One thing I notice is that many people are applying intrinsic value to the DLC, i.e. if the main game costs X and I get Y amount of gameplay, then a DLC that costs a X% I should get Y% of gameplay. The entertainment industry doesn’t work that way. The only intrinsic value in a product is what I can get for the disc and packaging at a recycling plant.
 
The value in the entertainment industry comes from subjective value. Consider home video as an example. You can pay $14.99 for a single disc edition, or $19.99 for the two disc edition with all of the VAM (value added material). The DLC is value added; the subjective value is $5 in this case. You don’t need the DLC to play the game, but it adds value to the game, either in the form of new items, additional storylines, etc. But instead of paying for the extra content up-front, you are paying for it as is becomes available.
 
The whole thing about games keeping up with inflation and increasing in price is another inaccurate argument. Consider consumer electronics, DVD’s, etc. As the format matures, and associated cost of production drops, so does the retail price. It reaches a sell thru price point, at which point it can go no lower, or else it becomes unprofitable to produce, and can’t go higher because the consumer market won’t pay that price. Look at BLU-RAY discs and players. When they came out, they were around $40 and the players were in the $1000 range. This was above the price point for the perceived value. In the past year both of them have dropped significantly. For SD DVD, the market has stabilized at around $20 per disc and the BD market has stabilized at around $29 per disc.
 
I am hazarding a guess that the profit margin in the gaming industry has shrunk significantly, which is why you are seeing many more mergers, acquisitions, and re-alignments than in the past, a more motion picture mentality of less marginally profitable products and a greater focus on the tent pole blockbusters, and a greater focus on owning the IP of a game. But aside from the CEO’s cell phone number, profit margins are the most closely guarded secret in any industry.
 
The DLC is most likely a low cost low yield (or do I dare say a loss-lead) item, to keep community interest that will add value to re-releasing the product as a GotY or special edition with all expansions for roughly the same price as, or at a slight discount from, the original price. It also serves as a soft sell marketing tool to keep community interest for the next installment, whether that is an expansion, or a sequel.
 
While there is a licensing fee to console makers across platforms, and I would suspect a lesser fee for an “exclusive” period (which is why you see a single console edition for the first 6 months to a year), it would probably be built into the pricing model.
 
Another thing to consider with pricing is that it is the MSRP. The publisher probably gets a per unit wholesale price from distributors, who in turn apply their mark-up. That’s why prices at GS versus Wal-Mart for the same product will generally have a 2-5 dollar difference, and is also why places like Steam can offer super saving sales.
 
The developer, if in-house probably gets a budget that has no relation to ultimate sales and the corporate bottom line, while the contract publisher either gets a fixed fee or T&M + x% in fee.
 
I have certainly digressed. The bottom line is: Is the DLC worth $5 to you or not? If so, buy it, if not, don’t.  

Modifié par TheKnave69, 10 février 2010 - 02:40 .


#162
the_one_54321

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David Gaider wrote...
...
But that's just my two cents, much like your own. Reasoned feedback is always helpful, and I appreciate the thought you've put into your posts.

Heh, that's pretty much what we've been talking about for that passed couple pages. Thanks for your thoughts, though.

#163
TheKnave69

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Duplicate

Modifié par TheKnave69, 10 février 2010 - 02:38 .


#164
What a Twist

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I didn't need to buy the DLC, it was my choice. Was it worth $5? With all the issues leading up to its release, maybe not. The content itself was probably worth $5 to me, its a matter of opinion. You could say a legendary piece of art isn't worth $5 to you, but its worth millions to someone else.



Hell, I spend $5 just using the @#$%ing ATM in the mall, so why not on RTO.

#165
the_one_54321

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TheKnave69 wrote...
The whole thing about games keeping up with inflation and increasing in price is another inaccurate argument. Consider consumer electronics, DVD’s, etc. As the format matures, and associated cost of production drops, so does the retail price. It reaches a sell thru price point, at which point it can go no lower, or else it becomes unprofitable to produce, and can’t go higher because the consumer market won’t pay that price. Look at BLU-RAY discs and players. When they came out, they were around $40 and the players were in the $1000 range. This was above the price point for the perceived value. In the past year both of them have dropped significantly. For SD DVD, the market has stabilized at around $20 per disc and the BD market has stabilized at around $29 per disc, regardless of content.


This was an interesting point, but consider the relation of cost of production to the increase in graphics and animation quality. Producing games has gotten more expensive, not less. And distribution doesn't often get cheaper. The materials decrease in price, but sending them places does not.

#166
TheKnave69

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the_one_54321 wrote...

TheKnave69 wrote...
The whole thing about games keeping up with inflation and increasing in price is another inaccurate argument. Consider consumer electronics, DVD’s, etc. As the format matures, and associated cost of production drops, so does the retail price. It reaches a sell thru price point, at which point it can go no lower, or else it becomes unprofitable to produce, and can’t go higher because the consumer market won’t pay that price. Look at BLU-RAY discs and players. When they came out, they were around $40 and the players were in the $1000 range. This was above the price point for the perceived value. In the past year both of them have dropped significantly. For SD DVD, the market has stabilized at around $20 per disc and the BD market has stabilized at around $29 per disc, regardless of content.


This was an interesting point, but consider the relation of cost of production to the increase in graphics and animation quality. Producing games has gotten more expensive, not less. And distribution doesn't often get cheaper. The materials decrease in price, but sending them places does not.


The relation to cost of production is not a linear relationship to the increase in graphics and and animation quality.  As the technology becomes more complex, the tools to manipulate them generally become more advanced, possibly to include enhanced user interface to simplify the process.  Look at something like CGI using key frame animation.  You animate Frame 1 and frame 12, and the comuter extrapolates the interframes and draws the images.  Or creating more efficient lipsync algorithms.

There are a couple of approaches to things like that.  One is to license a game engine and modify it (how many games used the Quake 3 engine, or the Half Life 2 engine), or develop a propriatory engine.  Both have their advantages and disadvantages.  Using a pre-existing engine enables the developer to concentrate more on building the game and less on building the tool-set, while creating a propriatory engine enables the owner to license the engine and generate revenue from rival developers, and is generally built into the cost-benefit model. 

I saw it a lot in the home entertainment industry.  We would use our rival to create our menus for DVD's, while our rivals would use our compression department to conform the video and audio.

#167
the_one_54321

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So, you're arguing that inflation has not impacted the cost of game development? That's not really supported by the deduction that profit margins have also shrunk. If game development is indeed becoming harder to make profitable, and I'd agree with you on that, then it's not likely that development has been getting cheaper.

#168
Darkga

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the_one_54321 wrote...

And this leads to all my ire over this DLC nonsense. DLC has effectively tricked the majority of consumers to look at it from the producers perspective and accept incredible profit margins. I, on the other hand, recognize just what is going on here, and am choosing not to participate. And when the topic comes up around here, I say that I will refuse to participate, and I will explain exactly why when someone asks.


+1 (bolding mine) and I blame EA. It was inevitable though...

#169
Rictras Shard

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the_one_54321 wrote...
More examples of improper price comparison.


An example of improper dismissal.

#170
thegreateski

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Yes, EA is the devil.



they're actually selling us cut content from the game and the expansion is actually only going to be an hour long.



Then they'll start selling us all the missing mage robes and leather armor.



I thought everybody knew this?

*puts his tinfoil hat back on*

#171
TheKnave69

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the_one_54321 wrote...

So, you're arguing that inflation has not impacted the cost of game development? That's not really supported by the deduction that profit margins have also shrunk. If game development is indeed becoming harder to make profitable, and I'd agree with you on that, then it's not likely that development has been getting cheaper.


I didn't mean to imply that the cost of development is getting cheaper, unless they outsource (but that's a whole 'nother can of mash), but what happens is that prices stabilize at an equilibrium where the cost of development is taken into account.  You will generally find one high cost/high profit title every couple of years, and numerous derivatives: sequels, expansions, licensed IP properties, etc.  This is not to say that the derivatives are in any way less than the original, although some are.  Some sequels are surprisingly good, and at times better than the original.  BG2 for example. 

After the initial development cost for the initial product, utilizing the same engine, with tweaks due to advancing technology, cuts a good portion of the development cost.  Developing secondary markets for the IP also amoritize the debt across multiple revenue streams.  Movie studios do the same thing.  If a movie is a hit, they produce sequels, or set up ancillary markets: television, home media, books, etc. 

Back at the start of the gaming industry, there were many stand-alone games that small shops worked on, very few games built franchises (Ultima, and the D&D properties being the notable exceptions, although there were others), or were not intended to be a franchise when started.  And I don't remember very many licensed products, clothes, toys, books related to some of the older games.  If you look at something like Mass Effect, the designers stated at the beginning that it would be a trilogy.  With DA:O, there are flash games, books, clothing designs, etc.

The overall cost has gone up per product line, in addition to the corporatization of the gaming industry (there is a joke that it's called the motion picture INDUSTRY, not the motion picture ART, although most above-the-line talent would disagree) the financial models have changed from, work a game out, don't announce it until it's almost gold, and then work on the next title to: Set a release date, hype the **** out of it, and release it on or about the announced date (we can patch it later if we have to).  There's always a strained relationship between art and commerce, especially in the entertainment industry, but I digress.  It's similar to the the current studio model of releasing a picture big and hoping to recoup the losses in the first couple of weeks of release.  Hope it has legs, but don't count on it. 

The revenue base has expanded in both breadth and depth, giving games a longer life cycle.  This interest is additionally supported by an active fan base who create mods and unofficial patches, fanfic, fan art, etc., which Bioware has always had a reputation for having a good relationship with.

#172
Pinkleaf

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Anyway, Now that Bioware know that DAO is loved by many, I doubt if there will be time for any more download stuff with The awakening, Dragon age 2, 3, 4 and 5 in the making. ;-)

#173
Guest_Semone_*

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Yrkoon wrote...

Semone wrote...

The real problem is that they didnt made the dlc.They are parts of the game why do you think the characters respond to them. its because its the part of the game they didnt release so you pay them more money, all of dlc are done they just waiting for the time to reales them so you pay them its called monopoly bisness.

I can assure you  that this isn't true at all.

And part of the reason why these DLCs aren't free is BECAUSE they had to pay the voice actors to come back in and speak the new lines.  (Alistair's, Wynne's and Logains to be specific.  No other characters in this game have any new lines in RTO)


Dude my dad works with computers and he told me that it takes good amout of time to make some thing that is so conected to the story that the game responds to it. it was made withe the game not the expantion but the dlc, why do you think the realeased stome prisoner with the game and why wardens keep came aout after week of game realese.

#174
xikux

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I agree, I'd rather buy a full expansion rather than those small downloads.



I'll still buy the small ones though.

#175
Onyx Jaguar

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I'd like to chime in again and say a couple of years ago I bought a pack that had PoP: The Sands of Time, Splinter Cell and Beyond Good and Evil for 10 bucks. So everything is overpriced.

I still personally feel that Warden's Keep and RTO a bit overpriced for what they offer. Warden's Keep its not so bad, but I have seen other instances on the marketplace where you get more content for the same price. It seems more in line that they are keeping up with the usual "new content is always 10 bucks" trend that is going on rather than a judge for price to quality. Because in all fairness RTO seems more like it was made by someone testing out the modding tools since all of the assets were in the original game, this just adds some dialogue. So in essence you pay five bucks for dialogue and some stat editing to items and enemies.

Edit:  Another price comparison.  RTO: 5 bucks,  I Made a Game With Zombies in It: 1 buck
And these could go on, there is nothing about RTO that doesn't scream mod to me. 

Modifié par Onyx Jaguar, 10 février 2010 - 09:26 .