170 réponses à ce sujet

[Ehlisuun]

GnusmasTHX said



"She's a lone wolf, get over it.



The fact that she can kill a thousand people by herself doesn't mean she has any leadership capacity."



If she can kill a thousand people by herself why is SHE the one that dies? There was nowhere near a thousand collectors in any of the fights.

[AtreiyaN7]

No, Samara isn't a good fireteam leader. She's a Justicar for goodness' sake. Justicars are basically lone wolves, and as far as I can tell, they do not really do a lot of team-leading nor do they work with others all that often.

** Edit: I see someone else said it too. Being able to kill a lot of people does not equate to being able to lead a team. I like Samara, and she was good in her role as the biotic keeping a shield up.

Modifié par AtreiyaN7, 08 février 2010 - 08:39 .

[DuffyMJ]

Veryth wrote...

Leadership is more than just telling people what to do. Zaeed may have the tactical knowledge, but he lacks the respect of those around him. He leads through brutality. Garrus formed his team because he got things done, and people respected him, as mentioned during his recruitment quest.

Okay, that's a good point that Garrus' charisma brought people to follow him, like he was a reluctant leader.

I can bite on Garrus being a good leader.

But no way are Jacob and Miranda better choices than Samara.  Non-Cerberus folks simply don't trust them!  And the tensions with Jack who not only distrusts but outright disdains Cerberus?  Bad news, folks. Bad, bad.

[GenericPlayer2]

jimmyjoefro wrote...

He was betrayed by his partner, Vito, in what was most likely a power struggle. There's nothing in the game that tells us what happened to Zaeed happened because he was a ****** poor leader. It all sounds like Vito's just a power hungry mercenary that was just waiting to take Zaeed out.

Thats not it. Ask him about the Turian  ship model and he will talk about that mission and how his whole team died. He is happy about it because he didn't have to split the money with them.

[GnusmasTHX]

DuffyMJ wrote...

Veryth wrote...

Leadership is more than just telling people what to do. Zaeed may have the tactical knowledge, but he lacks the respect of those around him. He leads through brutality. Garrus formed his team because he got things done, and people respected him, as mentioned during his recruitment quest.

Okay, that's a good point that Garrus' charisma brought people to follow him, like he was a reluctant leader.

I can bite on Garrus being a good leader.

But no way are Jacob and Miranda better choices than Samara.  Non-Cerberus folks simply don't trust them!  And the tensions with Jack who not only distrusts but outright disdains Cerberus?  Bad news, folks. Bad, bad.

Depends on how you play the game. Everyone liked everyone in my playthrough.

And people trusted ME, so if I told them to follow Cerberus, they would.

[DuffyMJ]

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

No, Samara isn't a good fireteam leader. She's a Justicar for goodness' sake. Justicars are basically lone wolves, and as far as I can tell, they do not really do a lot of team-leading nor do they work with others all that often.

Neither do CIA clandestine agents, but I would listen to one of them over a local county Sheriff, I'm pretty sure...

[tmp7704]

Ehlisuun wrote...

Did you actually play the ending? It shows the entire group minus Shep's party at the end, but the first time you pick a fire team it is just 3 people. The tech in the vent shaft shows up the same time the character does and they open a door so everyone can link up. If the tech dies it is while closing said door and in that scene there are only 7 people shown. Shep's squad is 3, tech guy is 1 so that leaves the fire team leader's 3 man squad.

It's logic really. If your team is 3 people and the other team is 3 people plus the tech guy... just where do the remaining members of your team come from given they're present at the end?

(let alone why wouldn't you want to have all people take part in the fight after you spent 2/3rd of the game preparing them for it)

Modifié par tmp7704, 08 février 2010 - 08:43 .

[Ehlisuun]

Someone can't be good or great at something they haven't done before? No one posting in this thread has every tried something for the first time and found they were a natural? Samara has more respect from the rest of the characters than any of the others do. All of the others have someone alienated by them.

[Sn0wst0rm]

Bioware made it clear which squad members were effective in leadership positions. If you actually listen to the back stories of the characters, it is clear which are best suited to leading TEAMS. While there is no doubt an Asari Justicar is experienced in battle, team leadership does not just translate from personal experience. You need to be able to coordinate other people. After 400 years, of solo work, Samara just isn't used to being a team leader. Putting that aside for now. The profiles that Bioware provides when you are given the choice of people to assign to different tasks are worded to provide clues as to who to assign to which jobs. The reason that you can assign the wrong people to jobs is because YOU are supposed to be playing a leader as well. If you assign a squad member with the wrong skill set to a job, things go sideways. If you don't like that, too bad. That is just the way the game and the story plays out.

[Schneidend]

GnusmasTHX wrote...

Depends on how you play the game. Everyone liked everyone in my playthrough.

And people trusted ME, so if I told them to follow Cerberus, they would.

This. The only difference being that I convinced Jack and Miranda to simply get over it, so they didn't necessarily like each other.

[DuffyMJ]

GnusmasTHX wrote...

DuffyMJ wrote...

Veryth wrote...

Leadership is more than just telling people what to do. Zaeed may have the tactical knowledge, but he lacks the respect of those around him. He leads through brutality. Garrus formed his team because he got things done, and people respected him, as mentioned during his recruitment quest.

Okay, that's a good point that Garrus' charisma brought people to follow him, like he was a reluctant leader.

I can bite on Garrus being a good leader.

But no way are Jacob and Miranda better choices than Samara.  Non-Cerberus folks simply don't trust them!  And the tensions with Jack who not only distrusts but outright disdains Cerberus?  Bad news, folks. Bad, bad.

Depends on how you play the game. Everyone liked everyone in my playthrough.

And people trusted ME, so if I told them to follow Cerberus, they would.

That's not true, Tali and the Cerberus duo have nasty words on Freedom's Prog. no matter how you play, and Jacob have tension during the recruitment no matter how you play, Jack and Miranda have three seperate incidents no matter how you play,  Zaeed relishes on how he killed Cerberus agents no matter how you play...

[CardonT]

DuffyMJ wrote...

Veryth wrote...

Leadership is more than just telling people what to do. Zaeed may have the tactical knowledge, but he lacks the respect of those around him. He leads through brutality. Garrus formed his team because he got things done, and people respected him, as mentioned during his recruitment quest.

Okay, that's a good point that Garrus' charisma brought people to follow him, like he was a reluctant leader.

I can bite on Garrus being a good leader.

But no way are Jacob and Miranda better choices than Samara.  Non-Cerberus folks simply don't trust them!  And the tensions with Jack who not only distrusts but outright disdains Cerberus?  Bad news, folks. Bad, bad.

If I recall it correctly, his file during the suicide mission says that he is a former general (might be mistranslated into german). So yes, he has a LOT of experience leading people.
The charisma-thing about Samara and spending 400 years of her life alone sum up. Her poor leadership skills get her killed because she can't properly order to give covering fire ore barrage a spot to pin enemies down. That might be why a stray bullet will hit her.

[GnusmasTHX]

Ehlisuun wrote...

GnusmasTHX said

"She's a lone wolf, get over it.

The fact that she can kill a thousand people by herself doesn't mean she has any leadership capacity."

If she can kill a thousand people by herself why is SHE the one that dies? There was nowhere near a thousand collectors in any of the fights.

God. The factors leading to their deaths are OBVIOUSLY not indicative of HOW they die, through and through.

How does sending a non hacking specialist through a vent = getting shot in the head?

If you choose the wrong person, or don't have that person loyal, they just die. The context doesn't necessarily fit in all scenarios. Though in this case it does, because she dies in combat, which is just about as contextual as you need it to be, unlike my first example.

[Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien]

DuffyMJ wrote...
I understand how the thing works, who you have to pick due to the games programming etc. I'm not talking about the game mechanic sense, I'm talking about in the design decision sense.  It makes no sense.  I'm not "crying" I'm just frankly really astounded at how ridiculous people are "defending" that Samara should be a poor leader who gets HERSELF killed as a result of somehow not having enough experience or command-through-loyalty to lead 3 people into battle.  I just find it incredibly stupid that people are defending Bioware's decision on this.

I am astounded at how thick you are if you can't see why she makes a poor leader. She is a lone-wolf, she wouldn't know how to co-ordinate a team because she has done everything on her own.

Do you not comprehend the meaning of the word lone-wolf?

Garrus and Miranda HAVE lead teams before and don't try to argue about Garrus again. Trying to compare Sidonis with Dr.Saleon is seriously laughable. Considering Garrus was hunting down Saleon whilst Sidonis was an apparent team-mate and the only mistake Garrus made was believing he was still such.

Zaeed isn't a good leader, he obviously pissed off his group members enough that they sided with Vido.

[Ehlisuun]

That isn't logic. You cannot claim something was present in a scene it wasn't present in. I don't care where they came from, perhaps they came in after the initial wave. If they weren't in the scene they weren't in the scene.



What is this crap about not calling for covering fire? There is a gap three feet wide in a sliding door, all the bad guys are on the outside of it, and they good guys are on the inside. The tech tries to close it and is shot right before it closes. All of the other characters are firing through the door until Shep helps close it. Where is there an opportunity for "covering fire"? If someone asked me to "cover them" by shooting where I am already shooting how does that help? Is it the magic words? Do people really think what you call something makes a big **** almighty difference?

[Daerog]

Garrus went Robin Hood for 2 years, and Robin Hood was a good leader. Leading people takes some personality, too, I chose Miranda as leader and she pretty much commanded, not asked or suggested, but practically demanded that people give covering fire, Samara is very, very calm, and doesn't have as much of a commanding presense. You can respect her, but her orders will invoke thought on those she talks to rather than direct obediance.

Zaeed can command obediance, but he isn't the best tactician... loyalty mission being one, pulling a Saren isn't the best move.

Modifié par DaerogTheDhampir, 08 février 2010 - 08:46 .

[Cutlass Jack]

Ehlisuun wrote...

Someone can't be good or great at something they haven't done before? No one posting in this thread has every tried something for the first time and found they were a natural? Samara has more respect from the rest of the characters than any of the others do. All of the others have someone alienated by them.

Actually remember that Samara's code would dictate she'd snap the neck of half your crew if she wasn't under vows to you. Most of them have very dubuious backgrounds. She also spends her time purposely isolated from the rest of the crew to avoid issues.

So they don't know her like Shepard does. Assuming Shepard made the effort. Respect her power? Absolutely. Trust her not to try to inflict 'justice' on them? I'm not so sure.

[Ackillez]

Garrus is the undisputable second-in-command in combat situations. Miranda is a damn corporate executive.



I'm inclined to agree that Zaeed and Samara are as valid leader choices as Miranda and Jacob. I mean, except for Miranda and Jacob every other team member is either



a) an alien

filled with hate/distrust for cerberus for various other reasons

c) both



Miranda is even incompetent enough to let her personal petty disagreements with Jack jeopardize the entire mission, requiring Shepard to salvage the situation.

[DuffyMJ]

Sn0wst0rm wrote...

Bioware made it clear which squad members were effective in leadership positions. If you actually listen to the back stories of the characters, it is clear which are best suited to leading TEAMS. While there is no doubt an Asari Justicar is experienced in battle, team leadership does not just translate from personal experience. You need to be able to coordinate other people. After 400 years, of solo work, Samara just isn't used to being a team leader. Putting that aside for now. The profiles that Bioware provides when you are given the choice of people to assign to different tasks are worded to provide clues as to who to assign to which jobs. The reason that you can assign the wrong people to jobs is because YOU are supposed to be playing a leader as well. If you assign a squad member with the wrong skill set to a job, things go sideways. If you don't like that, too bad. That is just the way the game and the story plays out.

Dude, read the whole thread before you reply.  The point isn't the gameplay mechanic, it's the wisdom of putting Miranda and Garrus as "better skill-sets" over Samara,  I just fundamentally disagree with that.  Who in the right mind would follow Miranda into battle? The "ice queen" Cerberus person that half the team doesn't trust?  Please.  And Garrus has merely TWO YEARS of experience as a "squad commander" (aka vigilante who led his folks to doom because of his hubris).   Lone Wolf or not, after 400 years, you damn well have leadership qualities.  Samara's very PRESENCE in awe-inspiring and charismatic.

[GnusmasTHX]

DuffyMJ wrote...

GnusmasTHX wrote...

DuffyMJ wrote...

Veryth wrote...

Leadership is more than just telling people what to do. Zaeed may have the tactical knowledge, but he lacks the respect of those around him. He leads through brutality. Garrus formed his team because he got things done, and people respected him, as mentioned during his recruitment quest.

Okay, that's a good point that Garrus' charisma brought people to follow him, like he was a reluctant leader.

I can bite on Garrus being a good leader.

But no way are Jacob and Miranda better choices than Samara.  Non-Cerberus folks simply don't trust them!  And the tensions with Jack who not only distrusts but outright disdains Cerberus?  Bad news, folks. Bad, bad.

Depends on how you play the game. Everyone liked everyone in my playthrough.

And people trusted ME, so if I told them to follow Cerberus, they would.

That's not true, Tali and the Cerberus duo have nasty words on Freedom's Prog. no matter how you play, and Jacob have tension during the recruitment no matter how you play, Jack and Miranda have three seperate incidents no matter how you play,  Zaeed relishes on how he killed Cerberus agents no matter how you play...

You killed Cerberus agents too.

You can resolve the tension with Tali in a separate conversation afterwards.

You can resolve the tension with Jack and Miranda as soon as they start arguing after Jack's mission.

Pretty much the paragon options nullify EVERY example you just said, excluding Zaeed, but that's because he was PAID, and because you can't speak to him in a proper dialog.

And then loyalty just nets you the added, everyone trusts Shepard, therefore everyone follows his orders.

Sorry, but you're just grasping for straws. Try harder.

Modifié par GnusmasTHX, 08 février 2010 - 08:48 .

[DuffyMJ]

GnusmasTHX wrote...

She's a lone wolf, get over it.

The fact that she can kill a thousand people by herself doesn't mean she has any leadership capacity.

Miranda on the other hand does. Not just in combat, but in leading Cerberus task groups. This is evident in just about EVERY single part of the game where you learn about her, as well as Mass Effect: Redemption and probably Galaxies.

Cerberus is just as a militia terrorist group as the CIA. The whole point of the loyalty missions is to get the loyalty of your squad. If you say follow a pink hippo into battle, they'll do it. But instead you choose Miranda. Despite their personal feelings, Miranda's leadership skills are unaffected because they know to follow SHEPARD's orders.

Cry more.

Great to see that your brain is capable of rationalizing the most ridiculous and ass backwards logic humanly possible!

[Sn0wst0rm]

I did read the thread, I also played the frakking game. You learn about how the crew starts following you into battle, not Cerberus. Tali and Garrus say as much, so does Chakwas. You are leading, you assign squad leaders. They are following YOUR chain of command.

[SidNitzerglobin]

As already mentioned, Samara isn't a leader as justicar's work alone.  She wouldn't have had any experience with leading squads in combat in the last 5 or so centuries.  Even assuming she did in her youth, I'd think she might be pretty rusty by now.

Based upon what we see in ME2, Miranda is so not a leader either IMO, but we have to assume that she has some skills based upon her leading the most resource intensive and important of the Cerberus cells.

Garrus is the most natural choice to me. He's got mad tactical skills, previous experience leading small military/para-military units, and is generally pretty easy to get along with (as long as you aren't a merc/criminal/mad scientist).

Modifié par SidNitzerglobin, 08 février 2010 - 08:51 .

[Ehlisuun]

Eh, Cutlass Jack...liking someone and respecting them are totally different. I have ****loads of respect for people that might want to snap my neck and might be able to. Anyone who doesn't respect someone like that is a moron. Furthermore, doesn't *EVERYONE* spend time isolated from the rest of the crew? Which two squadmates are in the same room?

[CRISIS1717]

Duffy you can actually ask characters who they trust. Jack doesn't like Cerberus but she considers Jacob a good person.

Jacob also has alliance background and lead a security team so imo he's the perfect choice.

I think Samara is a powerful team member, if not the most powerful team member but who says she is able to look after herself and a team at the same time? it doesn't matter if she's strong.