170 réponses à ce sujet

[GnusmasTHX]

DuffyMJ wrote...

GnusmasTHX wrote...

She's a lone wolf, get over it.

The fact that she can kill a thousand people by herself doesn't mean she has any leadership capacity.

Miranda on the other hand does. Not just in combat, but in leading Cerberus task groups. This is evident in just about EVERY single part of the game where you learn about her, as well as Mass Effect: Redemption and probably Galaxies.

Cerberus is just as a militia terrorist group as the CIA. The whole point of the loyalty missions is to get the loyalty of your squad. If you say follow a pink hippo into battle, they'll do it. But instead you choose Miranda. Despite their personal feelings, Miranda's leadership skills are unaffected because they know to follow SHEPARD's orders.

Cry more.

Great to see that your brain is capable of rationalizing the most ridiculous and ass backwards logic humanly possible!

No, you're just stupid.

Frankly nothing you've said about the game holds up. And neither do your ''opinions" on the matter.

Better luck next time.

[Ehlisuun]

Ok folks. Who do you bet on? Three US Army platoon leaders or three US army snipers?

[Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien]

DuffyMJ wrote...

Great to see that your brain is capable of rationalizing the most ridiculous and ass backwards logic humanly possible!

Compared to your LACK of logic seeing as you haven't given any really good reason to confirm why Samara would make a good leader, I suggest you just stop before you make yourself look even more of an idiot than you already are.

The comment you quoted on shows far more logic than you have in this entire thread, but that really isn't hard now is it seeing as you are a clueless jerk just trying to create flames....

News for you buddy, if you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen!

[nitefyre410]

DuffyMJ wrote...

 Non-Cerberus crew don't trust Miranda and Jack flat-out hates her.  Period.

I can deal with Garrus because while strategically and morally inept, he's very talented tactically, but there's no excuse for Miranda being a good team leader.  

I've made the argument again and again that Samara is VASTLY more capable as a fireteam leader than any other choice possible, and while everyone simply points out her flaws as a "lone wolf" type, the fact remains that you'd have to be a total fool to choose to follow a Taliban or other terrorist group militia's squad commander into battle over a super-specialized 1,000 year veteran lone wolf commando.  And the whole thing about "she's not used to leading a team, she'd get her whole team killed" is totally moot, because the consequence of her leading the fire team is HER OWN DEATH!

    

 



Its not about  pointing out the Flaws it has to the with
Tactics, team positioning,  strateagies  in fire... those are  simple
not Samara strengths,   while Samara is an amazing powerful  biotics,
she is just not a Fire team... there is more to leading then just being
the  most power  matter of fact useually the most power is NOT the
leader... In that case GRunt should have been Fire team lead over
Samara... He is tank  breed Krogan, and the best pure fighter you have
on you squad

Miranda, Garrus, Jacob are you best team leads.

Garrus or Grunt to escort the crew back.

Legion or Tali for the Vents

Samara or Jack for the Barreir specialist...

That
it ... the last mission is not about a popularity contest, its about
getting the job done and  putting the best people do the job in the
position they need to be in to make sure mission  is a  sucess..

Take you feelings about the character out of the equaiton because frankly  they are unimportant

Modifié par nitefyre410, 08 février 2010 - 08:55 .

[DuffyMJ]

Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien wrote...

DuffyMJ wrote...
I understand how the thing works, who you have to pick due to the games programming etc. I'm not talking about the game mechanic sense, I'm talking about in the design decision sense.  It makes no sense.  I'm not "crying" I'm just frankly really astounded at how ridiculous people are "defending" that Samara should be a poor leader who gets HERSELF killed as a result of somehow not having enough experience or command-through-loyalty to lead 3 people into battle.  I just find it incredibly stupid that people are defending Bioware's decision on this.

I am astounded at how thick you are if you can't see why she makes a poor leader. She is a lone-wolf, she wouldn't know how to co-ordinate a team because she has done everything on her own.

Do you not comprehend the meaning of the word lone-wolf?

Garrus and Miranda HAVE lead teams before and don't try to argue about Garrus again. Trying to compare Sidonis with Dr.Saleon is seriously laughable. Considering Garrus was hunting down Saleon whilst Sidonis was an apparent team-mate and the only mistake Garrus made was believing he was still such.

Zaeed isn't a good leader, he obviously pissed off his group members enough that they sided with Vido.

I'm the thick one?! LMAO You're the one who can't get it through your head that Garrus has blood lust and can't let **** go and that Saleon --> Sidonis clearly demonstrates that fact.  That a good leader does not make.  He didn't learn JACK from Shepard in ME 1.  He thanks Shepard for showing him the value of getting things done right, etc. etc. and what does he do?  Becomes a freaking vigilante and gets others killed for his crass.  Great job Garrus. 

[DuffyMJ]

GnusmasTHX wrote...

DuffyMJ wrote...

GnusmasTHX wrote...

DuffyMJ wrote...

Veryth wrote...

Leadership is more than just telling people what to do. Zaeed may have the tactical knowledge, but he lacks the respect of those around him. He leads through brutality. Garrus formed his team because he got things done, and people respected him, as mentioned during his recruitment quest.

Okay, that's a good point that Garrus' charisma brought people to follow him, like he was a reluctant leader.

I can bite on Garrus being a good leader.

But no way are Jacob and Miranda better choices than Samara.  Non-Cerberus folks simply don't trust them!  And the tensions with Jack who not only distrusts but outright disdains Cerberus?  Bad news, folks. Bad, bad.

Depends on how you play the game. Everyone liked everyone in my playthrough.

And people trusted ME, so if I told them to follow Cerberus, they would.

That's not true, Tali and the Cerberus duo have nasty words on Freedom's Prog. no matter how you play, and Jacob have tension during the recruitment no matter how you play, Jack and Miranda have three seperate incidents no matter how you play,  Zaeed relishes on how he killed Cerberus agents no matter how you play...

You killed Cerberus agents too.

You can resolve the tension with Tali in a separate conversation afterwards.

You can resolve the tension with Jack and Miranda as soon as they start arguing after Jack's mission.

Pretty much the paragon options nullify EVERY example you just said, excluding Zaeed, but that's because he was PAID, and because you can't speak to him in a proper dialog.

And then loyalty just nets you the added, everyone trusts Shepard, therefore everyone follows his orders.

Sorry, but you're just grasping for straws. Try harder.

Yeah because we all know that one conversation can heal all wounds and change and win hearts and minds right?  You obviously have lots of leadership experience in your own life, huh?

[SidNitzerglobin]

DuffyMJ wrote...

I'm the thick one?! LMAO You're the one who can't get it through your head that Garrus has blood lust and can't let **** go and that Saleon --> Sidonis clearly demonstrates that fact.  That a good leader does not make.  He didn't learn JACK from Shepard in ME 1.  He thanks Shepard for showing him the value of getting things done right, etc. etc. and what does he do?  Becomes a freaking vigilante and gets others killed for his crass.  Great job Garrus. 

And yet his squad on Omega only gets taken out when he isn't there to lead them...

The decision on who to lead the second fire team isn't a strategic one.  The leader of the second fire team isn't going to decide whether or not they should be assaulting the base or how to go about doing it, Shepard makes these decisions, their job is to make sure that it gets done.

Modifié par SidNitzerglobin, 08 février 2010 - 08:59 .

[DuffyMJ]

Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien wrote...

DuffyMJ wrote...

Great to see that your brain is capable of rationalizing the most ridiculous and ass backwards logic humanly possible!

Compared to your LACK of logic seeing as you haven't given any really good reason to confirm why Samara would make a good leader, I suggest you just stop before you make yourself look even more of an idiot than you already are.

The comment you quoted on shows far more logic than you have in this entire thread, but that really isn't hard now is it seeing as you are a clueless jerk just trying to create flames....

News for you buddy, if you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen!

I don't have logic?  Look you little utilitarian, XP-counting piece of hanar poo, YOU CAN'T HANDLE MY LOGIC!!! :happy:

[KnightofPhoenix]

DuffyMJ wrote...

I'm the thick one?! LMAO You're the one who can't get it through your head that Garrus has blood lust and can't let **** go and that Saleon --> Sidonis clearly demonstrates that fact.  That a good leader does not make.  

Because you don't want Garrus to kill innocent Collectors?...No wait.
Use your brain. Regardless of what you think about Garrus' ethic, you can't deny his leadership capablilty. His so called "bloodlust" is useful against the collectors.

[Ehlisuun]

The bottom line disagreement here is this: one side takes any bio information on the characters to be the final word and completely literal, the other looks at the character, their actions, their bio, and their dialogue as a composite. How well does Jack's bio fit her after a paragon romance? Is she an evil, crazed, out of control killer?

[tmp7704]

Ehlisuun wrote...

That isn't logic. You cannot claim something was present in a scene it wasn't present in.

It seems like logical explanation when you consider once you get past these door you close them so the Collectors cannot follow. Making it equally difficult for anyone on your own side to catch up with you. While yes, not all team members were shown explicitly in the scene it does not mean they weren't present there. Lot of cutscenes during the game don't even show both your squad mates 100% of the time for example even though you know for sure they're with you.

Using your own logic, if these extra members were never shown to actually join you later, shouldn't it mean that didn't actually happen? Either you can accept that some things take place off camera or there will be many things impossible to explain.

[DuffyMJ]

SidNitzerglobin wrote...

DuffyMJ wrote...

I'm the thick one?! LMAO You're the one who can't get it through your head that Garrus has blood lust and can't let **** go and that Saleon --> Sidonis clearly demonstrates that fact.  That a good leader does not make.  He didn't learn JACK from Shepard in ME 1.  He thanks Shepard for showing him the value of getting things done right, etc. etc. and what does he do?  Becomes a freaking vigilante and gets others killed for his crass.  Great job Garrus. 

And yet his squad on Omega only gets taken out when he isn't there to lead them...

It gets taken out when he manages to get all three major gangs to align against and conspire against him as a united front (both militarily and clandestine-wise, which is how Sidonis was turned). 

... Unless you also think Hitler was a brilliant leader for managing to get every major world power except for Japan to unite against him?  

Garrus is like Hannibal Barca, he knows how to win fights but not how to use them.

[Giantevilhead]

Samara shouldn't be a good leader but they should have made Morinth a good leader.

[DuffyMJ]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

DuffyMJ wrote...

I'm the thick one?! LMAO You're the one who can't get it through your head that Garrus has blood lust and can't let **** go and that Saleon --> Sidonis clearly demonstrates that fact.  That a good leader does not make.  

Because you don't want Garrus to kill innocent Collectors?...No wait.
Use your brain. Regardless of what you think about Garrus' ethic, you can't deny his leadership capablilty. His so called "bloodlust" is useful against the collectors.

He's a "good leader" in the way that Saren was a leader, i.e. only he makes it out alive as was the case on Omega!

[DuffyMJ]

Ehlisuun wrote...

The bottom line disagreement here is this: one side takes any bio information on the characters to be the final word and completely literal, the other looks at the character, their actions, their bio, and their dialogue as a composite. How well does Jack's bio fit her after a paragon romance? Is she an evil, crazed, out of control killer?

This.

And thanks for writing that, I think it's helping me understand why I'm getting so riled up, people defending Bioware's way of doing it remind me of school grammar marms who insist on everything being literal, framed, 100% fixed by boundaries as though they were handed down by God.  (i.e. Samara can't be a good leader because "obviously" lone wolves are terrible leaders and are way less experienced than some hothead who led a few guys against militas and mercenaries on omega for "omg two whole years!!")

Modifié par DuffyMJ, 08 février 2010 - 09:04 .

[Obadiah]

I think ME2 should have had some non RPing missions (where all you do is fight, maybe one or 2 blurbs for character), where you could pick a team with any leader, with the sole purpose of building up a 2nd fire team and getting the group to trust another member of the squad with leadership before the final suicide mission.

In real life that's what leaders do.

Modifié par Obadiah, 08 février 2010 - 09:11 .

[kekvitirae]

There is some logic in Samara being a bad team leader. She plays by her own rules (The Code) and mostly works alone.

The choice I would question is why Garrus makes a good team leader... Yeah, he's fit for combat, and he's led another team before, but he's mostly a loner. Mordin makes for a logical choice. He's already had experience in an STG, despite his age.

[77boy84]

Being a lone wolf for 1000 years doesn't mean you are a good leader.



Leading and working with a group is a whole lot different than working by yourself.



And the game even says Samara and other justicars primarily work in Asari space, and have trouble dealing with other species.



So now we got someone that always worked alone, and will have a hard time working with the rest of your team just because they aren't asari.



Miranda might not be trusted by your team, but your team trusts you, and if you say "listen to her, she knows her stuff", they'll take your word for it.

[nitefyre410]

Ehlisuun wrote...

The bottom line disagreement here is this: one side takes any bio information on the characters to be the final word and completely literal, the other looks at the character, their actions, their bio, and their dialogue as a composite. How well does Jack's bio fit her after a paragon romance? Is she an evil, crazed, out of control killer?

 

Never read the Character bios are all, just went off of what I learned abou the Character through out the game. I saw straight through Jacks little, "I am bad ass biotic  don't **** with me front"  the whole time i was thinking. " Scared little girl who is afaid to get close to some one and can't deal with her emotions..."  That whole game tells you who is suit for what role with even reading the  Character Dossier .

[SidNitzerglobin]

DuffyMJ wrote...

SidNitzerglobin wrote...
And yet his squad on Omega only gets taken out when he isn't there to lead them...

It gets taken out when he manages to get all three major gangs to align against and conspire against him as a united front (both militarily and clandestine-wise, which is how Sidonis was turned). 

... Unless you also think Hitler was a brilliant leader for managing to get every major world power except for Japan to unite against him?  

Garrus is like Hannibal Barca, he knows how to win fights but not how to use them.

Wow, invoking the Godwin rule on Garrus?!?   I never thought I'd see the day.

See my edit to my previous post though, you are arguing that Garrus is a horrible leader because of his strategic decisions.  The 2nd fire team has no strategic decisions to make.

Everything you are sighting as negatives for Garrus apply pretty much directly to Samara as well,  didn't she spend hundreds of years hunting down her own daughter, slaughter entire villages, etc. in defense of her code?

Modifié par SidNitzerglobin, 08 février 2010 - 09:10 .

[_000Darkstar]

DuffyMJ wrote...

Sn0wst0rm wrote...

Bioware made it clear which squad members were effective in leadership positions. If you actually listen to the back stories of the characters, it is clear which are best suited to leading TEAMS. While there is no doubt an Asari Justicar is experienced in battle, team leadership does not just translate from personal experience. You need to be able to coordinate other people. After 400 years, of solo work, Samara just isn't used to being a team leader. Putting that aside for now. The profiles that Bioware provides when you are given the choice of people to assign to different tasks are worded to provide clues as to who to assign to which jobs. The reason that you can assign the wrong people to jobs is because YOU are supposed to be playing a leader as well. If you assign a squad member with the wrong skill set to a job, things go sideways. If you don't like that, too bad. That is just the way the game and the story plays out.

Dude, read the whole thread before you reply.  The point isn't the gameplay mechanic, it's the wisdom of putting Miranda and Garrus as "better skill-sets" over Samara,  I just fundamentally disagree with that.  Who in the right mind would follow Miranda into battle? The "ice queen" Cerberus person that half the team doesn't trust?  Please.  And Garrus has merely TWO YEARS of experience as a "squad commander" (aka vigilante who led his folks to doom because of his hubris).   Lone Wolf or not, after 400 years, you damn well have leadership qualities.  Samara's very PRESENCE in awe-inspiring and charismatic.

No matter how you put it, Garrus and Miranda STILL have more LEADERSHIP experience than Samara, even factoring in Samara's lifespan. Garrus was in the Turian military for a number of years. He spent time hunting down Saren with Shepard, effectivly learning from arguably THE best leader there is. Add to that the fact he spent two years putting those leadership skills he learned from Shepard and the Turians to good use.  Miranda was genetically modified to be perfect in every way possible, and then went to Cerberus where she became the leader of a number of operations. You don't become the right hand of The Illusive Man by being an incompetent leader.

Also, you argue that Samara's 400 years of combat experience adds to your case, whereas I believe it is a hinderance. You don't spend 400 years working by yourself honing your ability to get the job done solo, and then expect to jump into a leadership position/working with a group like it's riding a bicycle.

[Jeremy Winston]

Also, this idea that Garrus only has two years experience is garbage. He was considered as one of many Spectre possibilities. For that to happen, he had to have years of military training and experience.

In fact, I figure he's probably right up there in the Turian's equivalent of N7.

The last two years just cemented his leadership abilities.

EDIT: Ninja'd!

Modifié par Jeremy Winston, 08 février 2010 - 09:10 .

[DuffyMJ]

DaerogTheDhampir wrote...

Garrus went Robin Hood for 2 years, and Robin Hood was a good leader. Leading people takes some personality, too, I chose Miranda as leader and she pretty much commanded, not asked or suggested, but practically demanded that people give covering fire, Samara is very, very calm, and doesn't have as much of a commanding presense. You can respect her, but her orders will invoke thought on those she talks to rather than direct obediance.

Zaeed can command obediance, but he isn't the best tactician... loyalty mission being one, pulling a Saren isn't the best move.

Robin Hood was a good leader because he was an experience KNIGHT (AKA JUSTICAR!!!!) in the Holy Land during King Richard's Crusade! BOOM-SHAKA!!!!

[Daerog]

Having one's enemies unite against him doesn't mean he's a bad leader. If anything, he was so good that the enemies had to unite. Garrus is a great leader, but a horrible diplomat. DuffyMJ, you bring up Hitler, thanks for going with that one law that I forget the name of that Hitler or ****s will likely be brought up as an argument continues. Also, Hitler would make a better leader than Samara, as he did have a more commanding presense, in public anyway with his hypnotic charisma. Samara isn't a commander, she is a great soldier, but doesn't have a commanding presense.

[DuffyMJ]

Jeremy Winston wrote...

Also, this idea that Garrus only has two years experience is garbage. He was considered as one of many Spectre possibilities. For that to happen, he had to have years of military training and experience.

In fact, I figure he's probably right up there in the Turian's equivalent of N7.

The last two years just cemented his leadership abilities.

EDIT: Ninja'd!

And Samara was the Asari equiv. of an N7!!! She bested Nihlus, a spectre, in combat!

Once again, would you choose Nihlus over Garrus or not?