Aller au contenu

Photo

Samara not being a good fireteam leader is totally ridiculous


  • Veuillez vous connecter pour répondre
170 réponses à ce sujet

#126
DuffyMJ

DuffyMJ
  • Members
  • 944 messages

DaerogTheDhampir wrote...

Having one's enemies unite against him doesn't mean he's a bad leader. If anything, he was so good that the enemies had to unite. Garrus is a great leader, but a horrible diplomat. DuffyMJ, you bring up Hitler, thanks for going with that one law that I forget the name of that Hitler or ****s will likely be brought up as an argument continues. Also, Hitler would make a better leader than Samara, as he did have a more commanding presense, in public anyway with his hypnotic charisma. Samara isn't a commander, she is a great soldier, but doesn't have a commanding presense.


lmao every asinine conversation must dissolve into Hitler analogies! :D

#127
Forsakerr

Forsakerr
  • Members
  • 795 messages
how can someone who is working alone gain leadership? leadership means leading people you cant learn leadership by working alone so Samara cant be a good leader ,Garrus was approched to be a specter but he stepped back because his father did nt approved it and he was in the military before joining C-Sec so would Garrus be a better leader than Samara ? you bet he would

#128
Lmaoboat

Lmaoboat
  • Members
  • 1 021 messages
Listen up you scum-sucking degenerates, I'm DuffyMJ, and that means I'm way smarter than you brain dead ****s because all of you are a bunch of glue-sniffing retards who are unfit to breath the same air as I. You can not possibly have a valid point because you are a bunch of inbred morons who couldn't formulate a coherent thought. Now I think I've wasted enough time trying to enlighten you uncultured knuckle-draggers, and will instead spend by time on much more intelligent species of plankton. In closing, **** you uneducated pissants, I hope your mom gets raped and killed.

#129
tmp7704

tmp7704
  • Members
  • 11 156 messages

kekvitirae wrote...

The choice I would question is why Garrus makes a good team leader... Yeah, he's fit for combat, and he's led another team before, but he's mostly a loner.

Extensive experience in the military and then C-Sec -- Turians get enlisted at age of 15 and spend on average 15 years in active service, with officers and such serving 'for life'. He's pretty much like Jacob in this regard.

#130
Arrtis

Arrtis
  • Members
  • 3 679 messages
nihlus won that entaglement by mean of manipulating her code.*running away from a person you tie with when you have better things to do is a win to me*

#131
Cutlass Jack

Cutlass Jack
  • Members
  • 8 091 messages

DuffyMJ wrote...

And Samara was the Asari equiv. of an N7!!! She bested Nihlus, a spectre, in combat!

Once again, would you choose Nihlus over Garrus or not?


Um...Nihlus was taken out by a single shot from a normal gun in the back of his head while in a combat zone. Garrus survived getting hit with the cannons of a flying assault vehicle.

So I'd go with Garrus. Image IPB

Modifié par Cutlass Jack, 08 février 2010 - 09:13 .


#132
Jeremy Winston

Jeremy Winston
  • Members
  • 647 messages
Again, you're confusing single combat with squad tactics and leadership.

#133
DuffyMJ

DuffyMJ
  • Members
  • 944 messages

DaerogTheDhampir wrote...

Having one's enemies unite against him doesn't mean he's a bad leader.


Have you ever played Risk? 

#134
Daerog

Daerog
  • Members
  • 4 857 messages

DuffyMJ wrote...

Robin Hood was a good leader because he was an experience KNIGHT (AKA JUSTICAR!!!!) in the Holy Land during King Richard's Crusade! BOOM-SHAKA!!!!


Justicars work solo, knights in the crusades didn't. Also, Arthurian Knights were not reality's knights, there was barely a code. Then again, Robin Hood isn't exactly reality, nor is Garrus. But, Garrus proves leadership, Samara has never proven leadership.

#135
Jeremy Winston

Jeremy Winston
  • Members
  • 647 messages

DuffyMJ wrote...

DaerogTheDhampir wrote...

Having one's enemies unite against him doesn't mean he's a bad leader.


Have you ever played Risk? 

Still doesn't make you a bad leader.  Now, if the game was Diplomacy, you might have a point.

Having the enemy all gang up on you in Risk means they seriously respect you as a threat.

#136
DuffyMJ

DuffyMJ
  • Members
  • 944 messages

Forsakerr wrote...

how can someone who is working alone gain leadership? leadership means leading people you cant learn leadership by working alone so Samara cant be a good leader ,Garrus was approched to be a specter but he stepped back because his father did nt approved it and he was in the military before joining C-Sec so would Garrus be a better leader than Samara ? you bet he would


You can't teach leadership, leadership is an inate quality.  If it could be taught or gained through experience, every company would be a successful company and every civil service manager would be a great manager, and it would be physically impossible for a new college grad to be a great leader, especially fresh officers out of ROTC.  Unfortunately, none of those things are fact.

#137
DuffyMJ

DuffyMJ
  • Members
  • 944 messages

Lmaoboat wrote...

Listen up you scum-sucking degenerates, I'm DuffyMJ, and that means I'm way smarter than you brain dead ****s because all of you are a bunch of glue-sniffing retards who are unfit to breath the same air as I. You can not possibly have a valid point because you are a bunch of inbred morons who couldn't formulate a coherent thought. Now I think I've wasted enough time trying to enlighten you uncultured knuckle-draggers, and will instead spend by time on much more intelligent species of plankton. In closing, **** you uneducated pissants, I hope your mom gets raped and killed.


For some reason I read that in a Hanar voice

#138
Cutlass Jack

Cutlass Jack
  • Members
  • 8 091 messages

DuffyMJ wrote...

You can't teach leadership, leadership is an inate quality.  If it could be taught or gained through experience, every company would be a successful company and every civil service manager would be a great manager, and it would be physically impossible for a new college grad to be a great leader, especially fresh officers out of ROTC.  Unfortunately, none of those things are fact.


I think you just purposely lost your own arguement. Image IPB

#139
DuffyMJ

DuffyMJ
  • Members
  • 944 messages
alright well as much fun as I'm having I have to write a paper that I've been putting off for an hour now before zooming to my next class. Thanks for delaying me and helping me fail grad school by not unanimously agreeing with me and letting the page die on page 1. You damn SOB's. :P

Modifié par DuffyMJ, 08 février 2010 - 09:20 .


#140
Jeremy Winston

Jeremy Winston
  • Members
  • 647 messages
Our pleasure. :)



Good luck on the paper.

#141
DuffyMJ

DuffyMJ
  • Members
  • 944 messages
Oh wait, one last thing. You are all insane. I would rather have Blasto the Hanar Spectre as a squad leader, I would rather have Conrad Verner or Private Jenkins as a squad leader than INCOMPETENT GARRUS!!!!!!!

#142
Illum.se

Illum.se
  • Members
  • 49 messages
Naw, Samara is a solo player. I'd never put her as leader.

#143
Daerog

Daerog
  • Members
  • 4 857 messages
Blasto could solo the suicide mission.

#144
jawlz

jawlz
  • Members
  • 77 messages
Wow... seriously? Wow.

#145
DuffyMJ

DuffyMJ
  • Members
  • 944 messages

DaerogTheDhampir wrote...

Blasto could solo the suicide mission.


"Enkindle this genetically-enhanced Enkindler fecal matter!"

#146
Lumenadducere

Lumenadducere
  • Members
  • 115 messages
Yeesh. Well, first off good luck with the paper, hope it goes well.

But Duffy, I think you're misinterpreting some of the issues here. Samara may get along well with people and may command respect, and yes she may also be extremely capable of killing her enemies. But the issue here is both tactical experience and experience leading groups. Samara is capable and wise, but without the tactical knowledge or the experience to lead and manage troops, she's not going to be as capable as some of the other options. I'm not sure why she dies instead of someone else - the consequences sometimes don't line up well, but I don't think that's the issue.

As for Garrus, he didn't just lead his squad on Omega (who performed flawlessly until he was lured away), but he was also in the Turian military for years, where he also gained leadership experience. And yes, he may not have been a good judge of character in recruiting Sidonis, but a) that's not an issue because the crew was recruited by Shepard and B) he's still got the tactical knowledge and the knowledge of how to handle groups of combat troops, etc.

For the Cerberus crew, that's the whole reason to have the loyalty missions. If you don't have Jack's loyalty and she's with the distraction crew, she dies, presumably because she's not loyal to Shepard and disobeys an order. If they're loyal and in the middle of a combat situation, they're probably going to be willing to follow orders regardless of their personal feelings towards Cerberus. To me it was much more a matter of trusting Shepard - they may not like his decision to place Miranda or Jacob as leader, but they trust him/her enough to be willing to follow his/her desires, even if that means temporarily listening to someone from Cerberus.

Miranda and Jacob had experience leading beforehand, Jacob in the Alliance military and Miranda as the leader of several Cerberus cells and projects. Plus they'd both have the tactical knowledge required to be able to issue the proper commands, even if their personal charisma leaves something to be desired. This is the same issue with Zaeed - he regularly got his squad killed on jobs and missions, so not only is he not charismatic but he also makes poor tactical decisions that result in death.

And I'd very much disagree that leadership cannot be taught. Some of it is innate, yes, but experience can do a lot to teach someone. There are reasons as to why when a company is looking to hire a manager they want someone with management experience, and there are oftentimes mitigating factors behind leadership not being successful. Plus there are differing levels of leadership experience before one actually leads. A college grad may be a great leader if they've spent time leading clubs, charity organizations, or managing events. Or they could be a crappy one if they've never done anything involving leadership before and they're just winging it.

Modifié par Lumenadducere, 08 février 2010 - 09:43 .


#147
Gerse1

Gerse1
  • Members
  • 448 messages

DuffyMJ wrote...

 Non-Cerberus crew don't trust Miranda and Jack flat-out hates her.  Period.

I can deal with Garrus because while strategically and morally inept, he's very talented tactically, but there's no excuse for Miranda being a good team leader.  

I've made the argument again and again that Samara is VASTLY more capable as a fireteam leader than any other choice possible, and while everyone simply points out her flaws as a "lone wolf" type, the fact remains that you'd have to be a total fool to choose to follow a Taliban or other terrorist group militia's squad commander into battle over a super-specialized 1,000 year veteran lone wolf commando.  And the whole thing about "she's not used to leading a team, she'd get her whole team killed" is totally moot, because the consequence of her leading the fire team is HER OWN DEATH!


THIS. omg. on my first play through I hadn't consulted internets on how to keep people alive, tried to make logical roleplaying choices and picked her. Miranda even told me it was a great choice!  I didn't pick Garrus and Miranda for same reasons, and Jack had barely finished calling Miranda a **** like 2 seconds earlier, so it didn't make sense to pick her. Although, Samara didn't die for me but the tech specialist (legion).  I got pissed and restarted with Garrus and all went well, but still.

#148
DuffyMJ

DuffyMJ
  • Members
  • 944 messages

Lumenadducere wrote...

Yeesh. Well, first off good luck with the paper, hope it goes well.

But Duffy, I think you're misinterpreting some of the issues here. Samara may get along well with people and may command respect, and yes she may also be extremely capable of killing her enemies. But the issue here is both tactical experience and experience leading groups. Samara is capable and wise, but without the tactical knowledge or the experience to lead and manage troops, she's not going to be as capable as some of the other options. I'm not sure why she dies instead of someone else - the consequences sometimes don't line up well, but I don't think that's the issue.

As for Garrus, he didn't just lead his squad on Omega (who performed flawlessly until he was lured away), but he was also in the Turian military for years, where he also gained leadership experience. And yes, he may not have been a good judge of character in recruiting Sidonis, but a) that's not an issue because the crew was recruited by Shepard and B) he's still got the tactical knowledge and the knowledge of how to handle groups of combat troops, etc.

For the Cerberus crew, that's the whole reason to have the loyalty missions. If you don't have Jack's loyalty and she's with the distraction crew, she dies, presumably because she's not loyal to Shepard and disobeys an order. If they're loyal and in the middle of a combat situation, they're probably going to be willing to follow orders regardless of their personal feelings towards Cerberus. To me it was much more a matter of trusting Shepard - they may not like his decision to place Miranda or Jacob as leader, but they trust him/her enough to be willing to follow his/her desires, even if that means temporarily listening to someone from Cerberus.

As for Miranda and Jacob, they had experience leading beforehand, Jacob in the Alliance military and Miranda as the leader of several Cerberus cells and projects. Plus they'd both have the tactical knowledge required to be able to issue the proper commands, even if their personal charisma leaves something to be desired. This is the same issue with Zaeed - he regularly got his squad killed on jobs and missions, so not only is he not charismatic but he also makes poor tactical decisions that result in death.

And I'd very much disagree that leadership cannot be taught. Some of it is innate, yes, but experience can do a lot to teach someone. There are reasons as to why when a company is looking to hire a manager they want someone with management experience, and there are oftentimes mitigating factors behind leadership not being successful. Plus there are differing levels of leadership experience before one actually leads. A college grad may be a great leader if they've spent time leading clubs, charity organizations, or managing events. Or they could be a crappy one if they've never done anything involving leadership before and they're just winging it.


I say it can't be taught because I remember going to so many awful "leadership workshops" both in college and while working for my state that really just felt like a complete waste of time and I can't imagine it being anything but a good consulting gig to "teach" leadership.

#149
Guest_antilles333_*

Guest_antilles333_*
  • Guests
Samara has like 400 years of experience. It's natural for one to hear Miranda say "someone with experience" then go to the person with four centuries of it.

#150
Talthanar

Talthanar
  • Members
  • 205 messages
Samara would be a poor choice due to the path she chose to take. Maybe she doesn't like leading people and therefor sucks at it. Not rocket science here people (read op).



Also military chains of command (officers anyway) is stupidly poor in reaction time. Talked to a former officer nurse lady a couple months back. She had a dumb loud speaker that was loud and did not allow her to effectively do her job. She went to the chain of command and got nowhere. Meanwhile one day she saw a sergeant major walk by and mentioned her problem to him. He grabbed a chair and unplugged it on the spot.



In theory Legion would be a good leader however he waits for consensus rather than tell his whatcherbobbies that this is the way it's gonna be and if ya don't like it bugger off.