170 réponses à ce sujet

[DuffyMJ]

Gerse1 wrote...

DuffyMJ wrote...

 Non-Cerberus crew don't trust Miranda and Jack flat-out hates her.  Period.

I can deal with Garrus because while strategically and morally inept, he's very talented tactically, but there's no excuse for Miranda being a good team leader.  

I've made the argument again and again that Samara is VASTLY more capable as a fireteam leader than any other choice possible, and while everyone simply points out her flaws as a "lone wolf" type, the fact remains that you'd have to be a total fool to choose to follow a Taliban or other terrorist group militia's squad commander into battle over a super-specialized 1,000 year veteran lone wolf commando.  And the whole thing about "she's not used to leading a team, she'd get her whole team killed" is totally moot, because the consequence of her leading the fire team is HER OWN DEATH!

THIS. omg. on my first play through I hadn't consulted internets on how to keep people alive, tried to make logical roleplaying choices and picked her. Miranda even told me it was a great choice!  I didn't pick Garrus and Miranda for same reasons, and Jack had barely finished calling Miranda a **** like 2 seconds earlier, so it didn't make sense to pick her. Although, Samara didn't die for me but the tech specialist (legion).  I got pissed and restarted with Garrus and all went well, but still.

Haha, also for me, I had no indication from the tech specialist dying that it meant it was the Samara choice's fault, so I picked her the second time as well! and as a result I didn't have a good biotic person and lost a squad member during the bug swarm thing! Murrrrrr.  I lost 4 people in my first run, I really can't tell you all how much it hurt me to lose 4 people, especially when Tali died!  I really don't feel good even replaying and saving everyone, I just feel like I failed as a leader and nothing can change how I feel it really puts a hole in my heart. <3<3

[Lmaoboat]

We should wait until Bioware releases a Mass Effect D&D sourcebook so we can see the Charisma and Wisdom values of our squad mates.

Modifié par Lmaoboat, 08 février 2010 - 09:48 .

[Jeremy Winston]

Someone asked earlier about the big deal of "covering fire." While this isn't news to anyone, covering fire is designed to prevent the enemy from sighting a target. It's not designed to kill or hurt them, but to keep them off another target.



So, the assumption is that, without specifically providing covering fire for your tech specialist, one of the enemy took a bead and shot him/her in the head.

[apk117]

Samara not being great at small unit tactics is understandable, but Zaeed... come on, one of the galaxy's most experienced mercenaries and co-founder of the Blue Suns. Strikes me as odd that he fails at leading the fireteam on the suicide mission.

Modifié par apk117, 08 février 2010 - 11:36 .

[DuffyMJ]

Jeremy Winston wrote...

Someone asked earlier about the big deal of "covering fire." While this isn't news to anyone, covering fire is designed to prevent the enemy from sighting a target. It's not designed to kill or hurt them, but to keep them off another target.

So, the assumption is that, without specifically providing covering fire for your tech specialist, one of the enemy took a bead and shot him/her in the head.

I understand that, but there's no way to interpret that that was a shortcoming of the second fireteam leader's incompetence on the first playthrough, ya know?

[Jeremy Winston]

No doubt. They could have helped with having Shepard say something like, "Damn... should have had someone with more XYZ experience..."

[Jigero]

antilles333 wrote...

Samara has like 400 years of experience. It's natural for one to hear Miranda say "someone with experience" then go to the person with four centuries of it.

So if you been a carpender for 400 years, you should know how to do plumbing right?

[DBHolm]

This thread is utterly ridiculous, and that comes from someone who chose Samara in the first place. The reason why Samara is not a good leader is perfectly clear, and they make sense. Whether or not she could have been a good leader despite having spent 400 years on her own is irrelevant; we're shown explicitly that she is not.

As for the Cerberus personnel, both Jacob and Miranda have experience leading people. They have the skills required. Garrus lead his own squad and did well until he was betrayed by circumstances beyond his control.

Your gripe really has no merit. Just get over it.

Modifié par DBHolm, 08 février 2010 - 10:13 .

[Schneidend]

apk117 wrote...

Samara not being great at small unit tactics is understandable, but Zaeed... come on, one of the galaxy's most experienced mercenaries and co-founder of the Blue Suns. Strikes me as odd that he fails at leading the fire team on the suicide mission.

Zaeed has the tactical knowledge, but lacks the charisma. Garrus has both.

[Jeremy Winston]

Zaeed also is less concerned with saving everyone, in my mind. He'd be very willing to kill someone to save the team (or at least himself) and less willing to take, maybe a slightly risker move to save everyone.

[Oawa]

DuffyMJ wrote...

I say it can't be taught because I remember going to so many awful "leadership workshops" both in college and while working for my state that really just felt like a complete waste of time and I can't imagine it being anything but a good consulting gig to "teach" leadership.

Well there's your problem, you couldn't take the workshops seriously.

You can learn a lot, and help find ways to better yourself "leadership" wise if you actually care enough to pay attention hehe.

[AngryTigerP]

Think I should set the record straight:



Sidonis didn't betray Garrus because Garrus was a bad leader. He betrayed him because he was threatened with death, and he was a coward who now has the blood of the team on his hands.



And if you paid attention, the ONLY reason that all 3 major merc companies are on Garrus's trail is because his squad had systematically begun dismantling them from the inside out, performing whatever task they were assigned absolutely spot-on. Such a team could only succeed against the odds they faced with the aid of a fantastic squad leader.



And as for single-combat experience, Garrus has plenty, too. Or do you not think holding out against an army of mercs with nothing but a sniper rifle is a good show?

[Sn0wst0rm]

AngryTigerP wrote...

Think I should set the record straight:

Sidonis didn't betray Garrus because Garrus was a bad leader. He betrayed him because he was threatened with death, and he was a coward who now has the blood of the team on his hands.

And if you paid attention, the ONLY reason that all 3 major merc companies are on Garrus's trail is because his squad had systematically begun dismantling them from the inside out, performing whatever task they were assigned absolutely spot-on. Such a team could only succeed against the odds they faced with the aid of a fantastic squad leader.

And as for single-combat experience, Garrus has plenty, too. Or do you not think holding out against an army of mercs with nothing but a sniper rifle is a good show?

Add to that the fact that his squad got obliterated WITHOUT his leadership. The fact that a 10 person squad was able to ****** off 3 mercenary organizations by systematically taking out their ability to conduct business should be evidence enough that Garrus is a great choice for taking on superior numbers with a small group. (They say as much in his profile while you look through your choices.)

[Malanek]

Miranda stands out head and shoulders above the others for a leadership role IMO. She is described as a tactician and leader both in story and game mechanics. Although it would be better to keep Jack out of her squad.



Samara doesn't strike me as having any leadership qualities at all. I don't really get any of the arguments for her presented here.



As for Garrus, well his one and only time in a leadership role ultimately ended in failure. When I played it the first time, picking Garrus didn't even occur to me to be a good choice.

[Sn0wst0rm]

Schneidend wrote...

apk117 wrote...

Samara not being great at small unit tactics is understandable, but Zaeed... come on, one of the galaxy's most experienced mercenaries and co-founder of the Blue Suns. Strikes me as odd that he fails at leading the fire team on the suicide mission.

Zaeed has the tactical knowledge, but lacks the charisma. Garrus has both.

If you listen to his stories while on the Normandy, you would hear about how just about every mission he has been on, he managed to get out alive while the rest of the people with him died. While he is a survivor and badass as all getout, he was also willing to sacrifice the mission and innocent live to get revenge on Vido during his loyalty mission. He might be a great fighter, and theoretically a good tactician, but his in the field leadership skills are very apparently lacking.

[Series5Ranger]

jimmyjoefro wrote...

He was betrayed by his partner, Vito, in what was most likely a power struggle. There's nothing in the game that tells us what happened to Zaeed happened because he was a ****** poor leader. It all sounds like Vito's just a power hungry mercenary that was just waiting to take Zaeed out.

If he was such a great leader he would have inspiured enough loyalty that the other members wouldn't have betrayed him for a few Creds.

[Sn0wst0rm]

Malanek999 wrote...

As for Garrus, well his one and only time in a leadership role ultimately ended in failure. When I played it the first time, picking Garrus didn't even occur to me to be a good choice.

His time on Omega as Archangel was not his only leadership experience. He was in the Turian Military, and later a C-Sec Officer. While I understand that people would have some tripidation in following someone whose squad got obliterated, some of you consider the fact that they got wiped out bad. Think about it this way, he made a bad judgement call in trusting Sidonus, he admits that. I don't think that we have to worry about one of the team betraying them to the Collectors. However, while he was actually present and leading his team he managed to keep them alive, strike at mercenary groups much larger than his team, and cripple the mercs ability to do business so badly that they had to band together to take out a team of 10 people. I don't think that the game gave a good impression of the ratio of his team to the mercenaries that they were taking out. Add to that that his geurilla operations had been going on a while before the mercs managed to do anything about it, a fast strike on the Collector Base has even less chance of his methods coming back to bite you in the ass.

[Malanek]

Sn0wst0rm wrote...

Malanek999 wrote...

As for Garrus, well his one and only time in a leadership role ultimately ended in failure. When I played it the first time, picking Garrus didn't even occur to me to be a good choice.

His time on Omega as Archangel was not his only leadership experience. He was in the Turian Military, and later a C-Sec Officer.

He wasn't a leader in c-sec though was he? I was under the impression he hated it there and was stiffled by all the rules and his superiors. It wasn't a good fit for him. What role did he have in the military?

[Dizzy473]

I do love this "Samara/Zaeed/whoever is obviously a better choice!!".



Knowing how to lead and being good at it are two different things.



I know how to drive, doesn't mean I'll be winning any Formula 1 races anytime soon.

[jimmyjoefro]

Series5Ranger wrote...

jimmyjoefro wrote...

He was betrayed by his partner, Vito, in what was most likely a power struggle. There's nothing in the game that tells us what happened to Zaeed happened because he was a ****** poor leader. It all sounds like Vito's just a power hungry mercenary that was just waiting to take Zaeed out.

If he was such a great leader he would have inspiured enough loyalty that the other members wouldn't have betrayed him for a few Creds.

That's illogical.  For one, they're mercenaries.  Loyalty, for them, goes to whoever holds their next job and hands out the paychecks.  This isn't the military or a police force.  Secondly, we don't even know how much Vido paid the 6 men to capture Zaeed. It could have been a mountain of credits.  Complete control of the Blue Suns seems like a pretty lucrative gig and worth a fair sum. Finally, Zaeed wasn't killed because he was a bad leader.  Vido tried to kill him because Zaeed didn't want to deal with slaving for the Batarians, and Vido did.  Like I said, a power struggle was the reason for Zaeed's ejection from the Blue Suns, not his leadership or his men's loyalty.

Modifié par jimmyjoefro, 08 février 2010 - 11:29 .

[Chuck_Vu]

As someone who's been in the infantry (and I'm not going make any over inflated claims of my level of bad-ass, I was just infantry, not special forces or navy seals or what-ever) for a few years before I decided military life wasn't for me. During that time, I've had good leaders and bad leaders (people who told ME what to do), so I have some minor experince on this. Given a choice on which FICTIONAL character to take orders from.... I chose Garrus. Samara, while certainly a solo bad-ass, lacks experience as a leader (+400 years of combat exp does not equal +400 years of combat leadership, I mean who was she leading in that 400 years besides herself?), the closest thing she had to that was parenting. Miranda seems to me more concerened about spreadsheets and overhead, and therefore would an excellant office manager (my opinion only, I am not stating this as fact). And Zaeed seams like the type to suffer "accidental" friendly fire. Garrus, given his FICTIONAL backround story and profile, has both combat experience, AND experience as a combat leader, so I would be more inclined to follow Garrus. And it helps that Garrus is more people friendly then the other three. But that's just me and my opinion (it's just an opinion, not fact).



That said, I thought the success of the Fire Team leader was determined on the players success in his/her loyalty mission and weather or not you performed the related upgrade or not. Same thing goes with whomever you send as the Tech Specialist.