140 réponses à ce sujet

[verskk]

Nautica773 wrote...
Really? Because outside of performing CPR, Miranda doesn't have much of a reason to be following Shepard around the galactic core. I suppose she's human and has some sympathetic leanings for the human colonies....

She is the right-hand "man" of the person who set up the entire mission in the first place. And her presence serves as his oversight. Not to mention that Miranda is actually experienced in combat whereas Liara was just a scientist that could somehow stand toe-to-toe with some of the best warriors around...
Frankly, i think Miranda's presence makes much more sense. (Not that i wasn't a fan of Liara.)

I think about it this way, i guess:
Liara was related to Benezia and had an interest in the Protheans.
Miranda is the number one to TIM and has an interest in human preservation.

Seems pretty fair to me.

[reepneep]

hanifj wrote...

the other thing about ME1 sidequests was that you REMEMBERED them - whether it was the Indian guy who wanted his ___'s body or the ____ that asked you to kill her sister...

the only side quest i remember in ME2 was one of the last ones where you have to select one of two options (and there is a freaking glitch that auto-selects the other) and it has a specific outcome... but it was pathetic and lame compared to most of the stuff in ME1 (like the biotic research facility sidequest in ME1)

The 'Mr. Batia's Wife' quest and the one for the colonist background with the slave in the normandy's docking bay were the only ones I though were really any good.  The rest were just, go here, kill this dude, break this dude's kneecaps, fetch this item, etc.  They were all really small in scope and rarely took more than five minutes of actual work to do them (I refuse to count travel time to and from an objective).  Even the squad's personal quests in ME1 were hopelessly lame.

I recently did a run through ME1 where I did practically everything, including the mineral, asari writing and league of one quests.  It took around 26 hours, with several of those spent mucking around in the inventory.  My first ME2 playthrough took 31 hours doing almost none of the sidequests.  ME2 actually has far more, higher quality missions than ME1.

[Nautica773]

verskk wrote...
I think about it this way, i guess:
Liara was related to Benezia and had an interest in the Protheans.
Miranda is the number one to TIM and has an interest in human preservation.

Seems pretty fair to me.

I'm being a little unfair. But, to be honest, for a game that focuses on characters, I would expect greater motivation than what we had in Mass Effect. Characterization was easily one of the worst portions of the original, it would have been nice to see greater involvement of the followers in the ME2's plot.

Hopefully, BioWare will see this and try to work the followers and the story closer together for the finale.

[Phil5000]

Schneidend wrote...

It's not a plot-driven game. It's character-driven.

/thread

That's not an excuse.

[verskk]

hanifj wrote...

I agree, i feel that the recruitment and loyalty missions were as important to the story as any "main" mission. Shepard very much needed skilled individuals in ME2, and needed to make sure they were focused on the mission before undertaking it. I welcome the fact that each character gave us an opportunity to hear a new story. Besides, if there had been 20 missions that had all been focused on the characters having some quarrel with the collectors, i would have learned nothing about them.

wtf? what actual skills did you use besides basic biotic/tech hacking stuff? the funny thing about the whole suicide mission is HOW WEAKSAUCE IT WAS. you could have picked any number of people to do anything, it would have made no flipping difference at the end.

Well, from a writing and universe point of view, having any biotic/tech skills at all wouldn't be "basic." But it isn't like Bioware is going to make a recruitable character that has no special skills just to show you that having them isn't a common occurence within the ME world.

Like Kaidan said in ME1, very few human children actually ended up with biotic abilities even when a concerted effort was made. As for tech abilities, how many people do you know that can remote-hack a supercomputer? 

They seem common to the player because all the characters' abilities are ones that would only be possessed by very few individuals in the ME universe, meaning they are the ones you need to recruit. Meaning they are the only ones you see.

[yummysoap]

Mass Effect 1: Therum, Noveria, Feros, Virmire, Ilos and Citadel
Mass Effect 2: Freedom's Progress, Horizon, Collector Ship, Derelict Reaper and Suicide Mission.

The additional content in Noveria and Feros was not plot related -- there was about the same amount of plot related mission content in the two games, it's just the second one it was spread out amongst the recruit missions.

Modifié par yummysoap, 09 février 2010 - 01:25 .

[verskk]

Nautica773 wrote...

verskk wrote...
I think about it this way, i guess:
Liara was related to Benezia and had an interest in the Protheans.
Miranda is the number one to TIM and has an interest in human preservation.

Seems pretty fair to me.

I'm being a little unfair. But, to be honest, for a game that focuses on characters, I would expect greater motivation than what we had in Mass Effect. Characterization was easily one of the worst portions of the original, it would have been nice to see greater involvement of the followers in the ME2's plot.

Hopefully, BioWare will see this and try to work the followers and the story closer together for the finale.

I think that's just an effect of them having to introduce the characters and their backstories in this game. If they keep most of the characters for the third game, they won't need to spend so much time on introducing you to the characters.

That being said, i enjoyed their backstories.

[reepneep]

hanifj wrote...

I agree, i feel that the recruitment and loyalty missions were as important to the story as any "main" mission. Shepard very much needed skilled individuals in ME2, and needed to make sure they were focused on the mission before undertaking it. I welcome the fact that each character gave us an opportunity to hear a new story. Besides, if there had been 20 missions that had all been focused on the characters having some quarrel with the collectors, i would have learned nothing about them.

wtf? what actual skills did you use besides basic biotic/tech hacking stuff? the funny thing about the whole suicide mission is HOW WEAKSAUCE IT WAS. you could have picked any number of people to do anything, it would have made no flipping difference at the end.

The same argument could be made for ME1.  Besides, I don't remember any decisions you had to make in the first game getting EVERYONE killed...

[hanifj]

i don't think bioware conscientiously tried to follow an art form - even if they did - they failed miserably - because none of the characters have any real reason to be part of the suicide mission unlike 7 samurai who come to respect each other and work with each other - it was simply a lame loyalty collectathon - it's like no one really cares, everyone is sort of their because of a coincidence - their reasons for being there weren't very developed - few seemed to acknowledge the fate of the galaxy was at stake



and dude stfu, of course i've played gow2, wtf kinda question is that?



the mixture of the missions was mostly stop, pop, and shoot a la GOW2



me1 had missions which were pure exploratory, or driving, or something else, there were missions that had objectives other than shooting something in the head, ME2 had some silly "deliver a crate" side quest and a few token "find the bracelet" things that were not separate side quests



in me2 i did NOTHING but stop, hide behind a wall, and kill with some silly overweight power like adrenaline or pull



insanity was a cakewalk



for ultra-advanced collectors their technology sure sucked



i get that you liked the game, good for you man, but it pales in comparison to what i and many other diehard ME fans would expect from a game following up from ME1's mind blowing plot



give me one sequence in ME2 that was as cool as the ME1 sequence with the ______ VI at _____ when you take the mako there and get out and speak to understand the fate of the ________



instead we get one crappy line from EDI saying the Collector's are __________ blah blah blah, move on



based on what i can tell, it seems like the game was genuinely rushed, either that or EA wants to rape people for some DLC

[Darth Drago]

After just finishing the game for the first time, I have to agree that there is not as many main plot quests in ME2 than ME1.

In ME1 you had Eden Prime, The Citadel (exposing Saren), Artemis Tau, Noveria, Feros, Virmire, back to the Citadel, Ilos, and the finale back to the Citadel. Granted maybe the first two Citadel ones could be considered minor ones but the others where huge levels that didn’t completely have you shooting every time you opened a door.

ME2 you had Awakening, Freedoms Progress, Collector Ship, Reaper IFF, and Suicide Mission. Most of these were very short quests compared to those ME1 had.

Having so many quests to get your companions as well as their loyalty quests compared to the few main plot quests put the balance in hunting down them over the reason WHY your recruiting them. There should have been  more of a balance to this.

[Drakron]

verskk wrote...
Liara is no more connected to the main plot than, say, miranda. If they had just made a recruitment mission for miranda and then used that as an excuse to nix half of the ME2 characters and sub-plots, i would be upset.

Of course.

Its not as if Liara is the daugher of Matriarch Benezia is found on Therum were the Saren is attempting on capturing her so she can help finding the Conduit.

Oh wait ...

Serious, do you people even read what you just typed? Liara is more connected to the main plot that anyone that come aboard ME2 that are just recruited to go along, Miranda is just there because she is Cerebus ... there is nothing personaly at stake with he in connection to the main plot, same with Jacob as the only ones that have a connection are Garrus, Tali and Legion.

[Mudzr]

I think you found what ME2 was really missing.

Still, everything else about the game is fantastic, but maybe a happy medium for ME3? Actually screw that, the finale needs a massive encampassing plot, expecially as we stil have sooo many loose ends.

[hanifj]

The same argument could be made for ME1.  Besides, I don't remember any decisions you had to make in the first game getting EVERYONE killed...

getting killed is a gimmick, me1 didn't need that, and even the process of getting killed in me2 was purely dependent on collectathon, nothing connected to the plot a la genophage and _____ in me1

the plot in ME1 itself was enough to overcome the gameplay flaws... the cycle of ______, the fate of the ______, the _____ in the citadel and how they evolved, the introduction of cerberus, the terra firma party, etc.

everything had a place and purpose 

when people justify me2 craptastic plot with "we genuinely need all these people and need their loyalties" i press the BS button, because frankly the characters SPECIFICALLY added nothing to the suicide mission

Modifié par hanifj, 09 février 2010 - 01:40 .

[Darth Drago]

yummysoap wrote...

Mass Effect 1: Therum, Noveria, Feros, Virmire, Ilos and Citadel
Mass Effect 2: Freedom's Progress, Horizon, Collector Ship, Derelict Reaper and Suicide Mission.

The additional content in Noveria and Feros was not plot related -- there was about the same amount of plot related mission content in the two games, it's just the second one it was spread out amongst the recruit missions.

Excuse me?
Noveria had key elements when you talked to Benezia, Sarens second in command. Feros had the Thorian which opened up other plot elements behind Sarens motives. Not plot related, yea right...

[WilliamShatner]

Indeed, your crew members dying in ME1 was a decision, one that you had to ponder about and live with the major consequences for the rest of the game (and one would have assumed the rest of the trilogy...).



Reading some people's playthroughs of ME2 it seems that even if you do everything right the game is a bit random in whether people live or die, and when they do die it's "Oh well, let's move on."

[hanifj]

IF EACH OF THE RECRUITED characters had some score to settle with the collectors or had some unique knowledge (with a reveal) or something related to beating them, the game would flow much better from a plot perspective.. i get the sense that bioware TRIED to do that with the grunt recruit mission, but ultimately it was a huge failure IMHO



instead what we got was a collectathon, plain and simple



it's like they broke the game up into pieces, handed a piece off to india, one piece of china, did some pieces in canada, cut copy and pasted it into a galaxy map, ship the product

[Schneidend]

Phil5000 wrote...

That's not an excuse.

You are right. It is, in fact, not an excuse at all.

[hanifj]

WilliamShatner wrote...

Indeed, your crew members dying in ME1 was a decision, one that you had to ponder about and live with the major consequences for the rest of the game (and one would have assumed the rest of the trilogy...).

Reading some people's playthroughs of ME2 it seems that even if you do everything right the game is a bit random in whether people live or die, and when they do die it's "Oh well, let's move on."

QUOTED for the mega freaking truth

[hanifj]

sadly Liara's story was the only one that could have flowed well with the overall plot given her motivations, i don't want to spoil it, but they could have done a lot more to work on that, instead they let it end in 5-10 lines and you move on, lame



but of course when you have a bunch of cheap people in india working on half your game, canada a piece of your game, and china a piece of your game, and your intent is to cut copy and paste it into a galaxy map to cash in on the gears of war 2 crowd, getting a flowing and interconnected plot is next to impossible



my suggestion fellow disappointed fans - go read alistair reynolds' revelation space trilogy which actually has an awesome plot throughout the three main novels - when i played ME1 i was told it was heavily influenced from revelation space so i went and bought the books, and simply put: MIND BLOWN

[diskoh]

The plot of the game is Shepard recruiting a squad and gaining their loyalty for a suicide mission to save humanity.



There are about 23 plot missions.

[Sirsmirkalot]

Indeed, your crew members dying in ME1 was a decision, one that you had to ponder about and live with the major consequences for the rest of the game (and one would have assumed the rest of the trilogy...).

Reading some people's playthroughs of ME2 it seems that even if you do everything right the game is a bit random in whether people live or die, and when they do die it's "Oh well, let's move on."

What I also dislike is that in ME1 I had to choose my LI well ahead of the love scene, while in ME 2 this is not the case. In ME2 I can still choose my LI litterally 2 seconds before the love scene, press quick load and try out another to see the differant sequences.

In ME1 it feels like your choises carry a lot more weight, unlike in ME2.

Modifié par Sirsmirkalot, 09 février 2010 - 01:58 .

[Warlokki]

Mass Effect 2 is a short story collection with the stories forming a coherrent story. Yes, it is coherrent. IMO. Excellent game. In all aspects. Not because it's "2" (AOE>AOE2) but because i love it.
My two cents concerning the original question/discussion

Modifié par Warlokki, 09 février 2010 - 01:54 .

[Ahglock]

Nautica773 wrote...

WilliamShatner wrote...

The problem with excusing the lack of plot in favour of being character driven is that 1) your character, the main character doesn't really develop in the game at all and 2) neither do the squadmates.

Can you imagine how long the game would have been though? That's part of the problem with ME2 is the inclusion of so many new characters. Most of the game is spent just explaining who they are, they certainly didn't have time for them to develop in any fashion. 

It was an interesting idea but a bit too ambitious. 

Well FF13 has playtimes of 60-90hours.(though from what I am reading the fans are not pleased, and it is turning into a epic fail with an awesome first week)  While they are different styles of games, maybe we should begin to expect more.  Either cut characters so each character is more developed or make the game longer. 

[reepneep]

hanifj wrote...
in me2 i did NOTHING but stop, hide behind a wall, and kill with some silly overweight power like adrenaline or pull

insanity was a cakewalk

for ultra-advanced collectors their technology sure sucked

The combat in ME1 wasn't all that different.  As for collector tech sucking, remember that part in ME1 where the scarriest battlship in know space gets gunned down by... a frigate?  WTF?

i get that you liked the game, good for you man, but it pales in comparison to what i and many other diehard ME fans would expect from a game following up from ME1's mind blowing plot

give me one sequence in ME2 that was as cool as the ME1 sequence with the ______ VI at _____ when you take the mako there and get out and speak to understand the fate of the ________

instead we get one crappy line from EDI saying the Collector's are __________ blah blah blah, move on

based on what i can tell, it seems like the game was genuinely rushed, either that or EA wants to rape people for some DLC

Mindblowing?  Its a basic space opera with ideas carbon copied from any number of other sources (starcontrol 2 in particular) mixed with the writings of HP Lovecraft.  I still enjoyed the game, but there was plenty of eyerolling going on.   Cosmic horror kinda loses it's punch when the old god is just a giant robot.

The VI on Ilos was a gigantic cop out.  They string you along for the whole game wondering exactly what's going on and  BAM! INFODUMP!  You end up having every last detail explained by a talking encyclopaedia.  No intrigue, no inscrutable motivaitons, no mystery.  The way it was revealed to you in ME2, a bit at a time and never even being able to truely trust the info you were getting was far more interesting.  I like it when a story makes me use my head to figure out what's going on.  I must be a ****** shooter fan. <_<

It was unfortunate that you didn't get a chance to sit down for coffee with Harbinger, though.  Still, TIM had more than enough sinister to make up for it.

[Bigeyez]

Since when do character-driven storys not have plots? (That very sentence is redundant) I think you guys need to go back to ENG 1101...