196 réponses à ce sujet

[Demx]

I was assuming that the body had the power she was seeking. Otherwise, I don't see the point in having an old god around.

[errant_knight]

Siradix wrote...

I was assuming that the body had the power she was seeking. Otherwise, I don't see the point in having an old god around.

The body might have knowledge--if a god's knowledge comes from the mind and not the soul, but the body is just a human body. Yes, it is difficult to figure out what Morrigan may have planned. Perhaps her reasons truly are altruistic, or perhaps she does want to use it against the Chantry. Or perhaps (and likely) there's something about an old god that we don't know. Interesting, isn't it?

Modifié par errant_knight, 09 février 2010 - 04:12 .

[Demx]

It is interesting to ponder the many possibilities, such as having to fight her in the future because of her plans with the child.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Morrigan doesn't really seem to give a rat's ass about the freedom and dignity of others, so I doubt she really wants to create a religous revolution to free people, especially mages, from the Chantry's iron fist..



Her purposes, however, are difficult to fathom. My theory has to do with magic and power. Remember, it was the old gods who supposedly were the ones who taught the secrets of magic to the Tevinter. The old gods seem to have an awesome well of knowledge when it comes to magic and power. Knowing Morrigan, that seems the most likely reason: to gain more magical power and knowledge, something she is constantly going on about wanting.

[Kekse2k]

Another thing I find note-worthy is the fact that Morrigan's acceptance of the Archdemon as being an Old God gives evidence to there being some truth to the Chantry's teachings, at least in Morrigan's eyes. We know her as someone who has little regard for the Chantry and its ways, including the Maker. Listening to her banter with Leliana, she takes a strong position against the existence of the Maker and that, if he did exist, he was some sort of incompetent father-figure (he did, after all, turn his gaze away from his first creations, strongly evidenced to be the spirits of the Fade, in favor of a new creation. That's kind of messed...).



In essence, it is Morrigan's belief that the Chant of Light is flawed, but not entirely without its truths, unless she knows something else about the Old Gods that the Chant has exorbitantly skewed. Yeah, just found that interesting. Really doesn't shed light on the whole mystery...

[errant_knight]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Morrigan doesn't really seem to give a rat's ass about the freedom and dignity of others, so I doubt she really wants to create a religous revolution to free people, especially mages, from the Chantry's iron fist..

Her purposes, however, are difficult to fathom. My theory has to do with magic and power. Remember, it was the old gods who supposedly were the ones who taught the secrets of magic to the Tevinter. The old gods seem to have an awesome well of knowledge when it comes to magic and power. Knowing Morrigan, that seems the most likely reason: to gain more magical power and knowledge, something she is constantly going on about wanting.

That's not entirely true. She cares about both Sten's imprisonment and his dignity. She also want's Jowan freed. She doesn't like the Chantry or the things it does. I'm not saying she'd sacrifice herself to achieve the goal of bringing down the Chantry, but if she could do that and still survive, I think she'd do it. Power must also be involved, because survival is her primary goal--surviving Flemeth, surviving the Chantry.... Power is her best bet.

Kekse2k wrote...

Another thing I find note-worthy is the fact that Morrigan's acceptance of the Archdemon as being an Old God gives evidence to there being some truth to the Chantry's teachings, at least in Morrigan's eyes. We know her as someone who has little regard for the Chantry and its ways, including the Maker. Listening to her banter with Leliana, she takes a strong position against the existence of the Maker and that, if he did exist, he was some sort of incompetent father-figure (he did, after all, turn his gaze away from his first creations, strongly evidenced to be the spirits of the Fade, in favor of a new creation. That's kind of messed...).

In essence, it is Morrigan's belief that the Chant of Light is flawed, but not entirely without its truths, unless she knows something else about the Old Gods that the Chant has exorbitantly skewed. Yeah, just found that interesting. Really doesn't shed light on the whole mystery...

That is interesting! Who would have thought that we'd have an almost-confirmation of some of the Chantry's teachings from Morrigan, of all people!

Erm, the turning away from his first creations? That's in Christianity (and presumably Judaism-someone correct me if I'm wrong), too--angels.

Modifié par errant_knight, 09 février 2010 - 04:47 .

[draxynnus]

errant_knight wrote...

Well, I don't see that as helpful to her. It's the soul of the old god that has value, not the human body it inhabits. From what we know of the ritual, the stronger and more knowledgable the host, the easier it is for a powerful mage to 'settle in', but we don't know that any of the host's own knowledge and skills survive the transfer. Morrigan certainly believed that all she was would be entirely replaced by Flemeth.

I'd actually guess that the possession is easiest with a powerful but relatively ignorant host - after all, a powerful, knowledgeable host would likely be able to find a way to effectively fight back. The rub is, of course, that when it comes to magic you have to become more knowledgeable in order to become more powerful, but now that I think on it, it does strike me that Morrigan does have some fairly strategic gaps in her abilities - she has a lot of offensive magic, but no training in the types of spells one might expect to use to defend against a posession attempt (Anti-Magic, Glyphs leading up to Glyph of Neutralisation...). This does make me wonder how much of this is due to Morrigan's temperament, and how much of it is Flemeth arranging things so that Morrigan becomes powerful while remaining vulnerable?

Regarding the plan between Flemeth and Morrigan - it does seem strange that Morrigan could have known about this in advance while still being surprised at being sent off with the Grey Wardens. I'm guessing that the offer is still made even if you don't recover the Black Grimoire, so it's presumably something Flemeth and Morrigan had discussed beforehand rather than something Morrigan figured out from the Grimoire.

This makes me wonder if Morrigan's surprise at being sent off was actually an act. She outright admits at multiple occasions that she's happy to manipulate the emotions of others, including saying something along the lines of "He's being manipulative, I know, I do it too" in response to Dog. With this in mind, it does seem quite likely that the exchange between Flemeth and Morrigan was a preplanned act to garner sympathy from the Wardens.

The alternatives, that I can see, is that Flemeth and Morrigan had discussed the idea in hypotheticals but Morrigan did in fact not realise that this was actually why Flemeth sent her with the Wardens until afterwards, or that while the plan had been prearranged, Morrigan didn't expect to be dispatched just yet. (Even if, logically, the pair would never have had a better opportunity to attach Morrigan to the remaining Wardens, Morrigan may have genuinely been caught off-balance by how quickly things developed - and the original plan may well not have taken into account the possibility that the Ferelden Wardens might be reduced to just two in desperate need of any assistance they could get. Morrigan may have been expecting some Machiavellian plan to get her in among the organisation of Grey Wardens that existed pre-Ostagar, while Flemeth just saw the opportunity and took it.)

EDIT: Regarding the angel thing, I think that's only explicitly stated in Islamic texts, but I'm no religious scholar so don't quote me on that.

Modifié par draxynnus, 09 février 2010 - 05:07 .

[iyyillius]

My interpetation was this.... morrigan upon reading the grimore discovered her mothers plan....seeing that she needs to both repel flemeth in the future and also have offspring more powerful than her n herself she chose this path to ensure that she could posses the body of her shild and become powerful enough to protect herself from flemeth.

[Kimarous]

I have a second theory on the matter. Maybe the plan isn't to gain the Old God's power by possessing it's body... but rather, to gain it's power over the darkspawn.



Think about it. The darkspawn deliberately seek out the Old Gods and taint them into becoming Archdemons, who then become the "hive masters", as it were, who gain control over the horde and lead them on to... um... blighting. If I recall correctly, the taint overrides the original mind of the Old God and makes them more Archdemony.



I wonder... if Flemeth/Morrigan bore the god-child and the darkspawn found and tainted said child into a humanoid Archdemon, what if Flemeth/Morrigan tried to possess the child at that point? Could she override the Archdemon's soul and retain her mind, becoming a "sane" Archdemon with the complete and utter loyalty of the horde?

[Kekse2k]

errant_knight wrote...

That is interesting! Who would have thought that we'd have an almost-confirmation of some of the Chantry's teachings from Morrigan, of all people!

Erm, the turning away from his first creations? That's in Christianity (and presumably Judaism-someone correct me if I'm wrong), too--angels.

Mmm I am rather uninformed concerning religion. I do remember, though, that in Christianity, there was the creation of...light and dark, land and ocean, foliage and...stuff...beasts of the land, sea, and air, and then came Man, followed by Woman. If I am ridiculously off, blame my memory, and beat it with a candlestick (in all seriousness, I don't mean to offend with my ignorance).

The way the Maker did it, he made spirits, was unhappy because they weren't creative (nothing grows in stagnant waters), so he made those who couldn't command the Fade to their will and essentially would have to struggle. From what I remember in the Codex entries, the Maker turned away from them, despite their best efforts to give him what he sought (which is relative to parents seeing their children "grow up" and make them proud, in my opinion), and in turn, the spirits try to see things through the eyes of those beyond the Veil so that they may pass this on...okay, well that made more sense in the language of my mind. So, wait, now I can't remember why I...ok nvm heh. What I was saying about Morrigan was that she said something about how uncool the Maker was for something...he did...like that. Yeah.

draxynnus wrote...

The alternatives, that I can see, is that Flemeth and Morrigan had discussed the plan in hypotheticals and Morrigan did in fact piece it together afterwards, or that while the plan had been prearranged, Morrigan didn't expect to be dispatched just yet. (Even if, logically, the pair would never have had a better opportunity to attach Morrigan to the remaining Wardens, Morrigan may have genuinely been caught off-balance by how quickly things developed.)

I remember Flemeth replying to Morrigan when Morrigan made a comment about how Flemeth was casting her out in the manner that she did. She said something along the lines of "If you're going to do something right, do it yourself, or hear about it for a decade or so afterwards." Should look at the part that talks about hearing about it for a decade or so afterwards...makes little sense if applied to the first impression that she's only talking about casting Morrigan out. Hear about what? Hear about how she had a chance to be free...or hear about this "plan" that could have come to fruition. Heh, I don't really know, it's something random I just thought of...sorry if that was confusing.

[draxynnus]

Kekse2k wrote...

errant_knight wrote...
That is interesting! Who would have thought that we'd have an almost-confirmation of some of the Chantry's teachings from Morrigan, of all people!
Erm, the turning away from his first creations? That's in Christianity (and presumably Judaism-someone correct me if I'm wrong), too--angels.

Mmm I am rather uninformed concerning religion. I do remember, though, that in Christianity, there was the creation of...light and dark, land and ocean, foliage and...stuff...beasts of the land, sea, and air, and then came Man, followed by Woman. If I am ridiculously off, blame my memory, and beat it with a candlestick (in all seriousness, I don't mean to offend with my ignorance).

Indeed - Christianity, from memory, never actually talks about where the angels come from - they simply pop up when needed.

Islam, however, talks about the djinn being made from "smokeless fire" as humanity was made from clay, and then God placed humanity over them in his favour. That's how Shaitan fell, in fact - Allah demanded that the angels bow to Adam, and Shaitan and his followers refused, and were cast out of Heaven in punishment.

[errant_knight]

draxynnus wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

Well, I don't see that as helpful to her. It's the soul of the old god that has value, not the human body it inhabits. From what we know of the ritual, the stronger and more knowledgable the host, the easier it is for a powerful mage to 'settle in', but we don't know that any of the host's own knowledge and skills survive the transfer. Morrigan certainly believed that all she was would be entirely replaced by Flemeth.

I'd actually guess that the possession is easiest with a powerful but relatively ignorant host - after all, a powerful, knowledgeable host would likely be able to find a way to effectively fight back. The rub is, of course, that when it comes to magic you have to become more knowledgeable in order to become more powerful, but now that I think on it, it does strike me that Morrigan does have some fairly strategic gaps in her abilities - she has a lot of offensive magic, but no training in the types of spells one might expect to use to defend against a posession attempt (Anti-Magic, Glyphs leading up to Glyph of Neutralisation...). This does make me wonder how much of this is due to Morrigan's temperament, and how much of it is Flemeth arranging things so that Morrigan becomes powerful while remaining vulnerable?

Regarding the plan between Flemeth and Morrigan - it does seem strange that Morrigan could have known about this in advance while still being surprised at being sent off with the Grey Wardens. I'm guessing that the offer is still made even if you don't recover the Black Grimoire, so it's presumably something Flemeth and Morrigan had discussed beforehand rather than something Morrigan figured out from the Grimoire.

This makes me wonder if Morrigan's surprise at being sent off was actually an act. She outright admits at multiple occasions that she's happy to manipulate the emotions of others, including saying something along the lines of "He's being manipulative, I know, I do it too" in response to Dog. With this in mind, it does seem quite likely that the exchange between Flemeth and Morrigan was a preplanned act to garner sympathy from the Wardens.

The alternatives, that I can see, is that Flemeth and Morrigan had discussed the idea in hypotheticals but Morrigan did in fact not realise that this was actually why Flemeth sent her with the Wardens until afterwards, or that while the plan had been prearranged, Morrigan didn't expect to be dispatched just yet. (Even if, logically, the pair would never have had a better opportunity to attach Morrigan to the remaining Wardens, Morrigan may have genuinely been caught off-balance by how quickly things developed - and the original plan may well not have taken into account the possibility that the Ferelden Wardens might be reduced to just two in desperate need of any assistance they could get. Morrigan may have been expecting some Machiavellian plan to get her in among the organisation of Grey Wardens that existed pre-Ostagar, while Flemeth just saw the opportunity and took it.)

EDIT: Regarding the angel thing, I think that's only explicitly stated in Islamic texts, but I'm no religious scholar so don't quote me on that.

You bring up some excellent points here. Much food for thought. Morrigan's skills are heavily weighted toward the offensive--but would Flemeth want the to be so powerful in that area if her magic was an issue? Morrigan is a killing machine after only a few level rises. I have to think that none of Morrigan's powers are an issue for Flemeth.

I was just watching that exchange with Morrigan, Dog, and the warden and thinking about manipulation today. It's quite pointed, isn't it. Makes you wonder....

Some of the discussion must have taken place when Flemeth went to rescue the wardens as Morrigan knows that the ritual is why Flemeth rescued them. I wish she didn't seem so utterly believable when she seems surprised about leaving, if she knew. That throws everything into doubt. Her reaction to the grimoire, her friendship with my PC, which I could have sworn was heartfelt.... Disturbing.

Yeah, I'm definitely no religious scholar, but I seem to remember reading something.... I know the Lucifer as fallen angel doesn't even appear in the bible. There's a passage about a defeated Babylonian king whose name was latinized to 'Lucifer' in the middle ages, but that's it. I don't think there's any reference to a 'fallen angel' at all, but the myth of the resentful angel must have come from somewhere.....

EDIT:

draxynnus wrote...

Indeed - Christianity, from memory, never actually talks about where the angels come from - they simply pop up when needed.

Islam, however, talks about the djinn being made from "smokeless fire" as humanity was made from clay, and then God placed humanity over them in his favour. That's how Shaitan fell, in fact - Allah demanded that the angels bow to Adam, and Shaitan and his followers refused, and were cast out of Heaven in punishment.

That's interesting, thanks! Perhaps there's reference to this in the Torah, or the Catholic bible? Something that would have created the idea in western culture? I know some of the original bible was cut out by reformers at various times. I still can't figure out where I may have read this, given that I've never read anything but my grandfather's King James version bible.

Modifié par errant_knight, 09 février 2010 - 05:51 .

[Kekse2k]

draxynnus wrote...

Indeed - Christianity, from memory, never actually talks about where the angels come from - they simply pop up when needed.

Islam, however, talks about the djinn being made from "smokeless fire" as humanity was made from clay, and then God placed humanity over them in his favour. That's how Shaitan fell, in fact - Allah demanded that the angels bow to Adam, and Shaitan and his followers refused, and were cast out of Heaven in punishment.

Ah, splendid! Thanks for enlightening me, I never knew that 

[draxynnus]

errant_knight wrote...

That's interesting, thanks! Perhaps there's reference to this in the Torah, or the Catholic bible? Something that would have created the idea in western culture? I know some of the original bible was cut out by reformers at various times. I still can't figure out where I may have read this, given that I've never read anything but my grandfather's King James version bible.

Possibly - it's not in the Bible (at least, not where you'd expect to find it - as I said, I'm no expert), and that means it's probably not in the main Jewish text either, but both Judaism and Christianity have a lot of religious material and dogma outside the main texts, and it wouldn't surprise me if there's something there. Probably the latter rather than the former - from what I recall, Judaism doesn't have God and the Devil in an adversarial role, but the Devil is basically the angel that God sends when he wants to test someone. (The serpent in Eden, on the other hand, is exactly that - the ancestral snake.)

While Islam does (I'm told) have it described in the Koran, it wouldn't surprise me if it originally came from an older text. Certainly, Christianity does have the concept of the Devil leading an assault on Heaven (in the past, that is, not the one that's predicted in Revelations), and I think that humanity's position in the hierarchy had something to do with that as well, but I've never come across the original source - I just know that it's a common element in Christian beliefs.

Of course, it's entirely possible that the idea in Christianity is a result of cross-pollination with Islam - stranger things have happened, after all.

[Ubasti]

Hmm, any of you ever think how much fun the devs are having when reading threads like this one? Or then they are pulling their hair and screaming "oh no, now they speculated what we had planned, and now we have to come up with another plan!" (Yeah, I know, completely off topic, but just had to write this ). But interesting reading nonetheless.

Modifié par Ubasti, 09 février 2010 - 06:28 .

[Demx]

draxynnus wrote...

Indeed - Christianity, from memory, never actually talks about where the angels come from - they simply pop up when needed.

Islam, however, talks about the djinn being made from "smokeless fire" as humanity was made from clay, and then God placed humanity over them in his favour. That's how Shaitan fell, in fact - Allah demanded that the angels bow to Adam, and Shaitan and his followers refused, and were cast out of Heaven in punishment.

Yes the Bible never talks about  where angels come from, but there are early Judisim/Christian books out there that do talk about them. The Bible itself was put together on a voting system. So what books made it or didn't make it were in the hands of those who were voting on it.

The word angel, translated from both Greek and Hebrew means messenger. The Bible often refers to angels as people or describes them as looking just like humans. The Bible/Torah also never mentions angels having wings or ever being created in Genesis, they seem to appear when that particular person needs a divine intervention. So you could say human spirits could be angels or they are a manifestation of God. It's completely up to interpretation as it been for hundreds of years.

Modifié par Siradix, 09 février 2010 - 06:47 .

[Mabari Owns High Dragon]

I just think its a struggle for survival. Not to mention I think maybe Flemeth knew Morrigan was a powerful mage and that she couldn't defeat her perhaps? Or maybe Flemeth has something to do with the baby... If Flemeth melded her soul with the Arch Demon *Shudders* thats one powerful creature... human... thing.

Modifié par Mabari Owns High Dragon, 09 février 2010 - 07:52 .

[errant_knight]

Mabari Owns High Dragon wrote...

I just think its a struggle for survival. Not to mention I think maybe Flemeth knew Morrigan was a powerful mage and that she couldn't defeat her perhaps? Or maybe Flemeth has something to do with the baby... If Flemeth melded her soul with the Arch Demon *Shudders* thats one powerful creature... human... thing.

Yeah, whatever Flemeth's plan was, I think it's probably better that Morrigan has the child. assuming that's still Morrigan, of course.

iyyillius wrote...

My interpetation was this.... morrigan upon reading the grimore discovered her mothers plan....seeing that she needs to both repel flemeth in the future and also have offspring more powerful than her n herself she chose this path to ensure that she could posses the body of her shild and become powerful enough to protect herself from flemeth.

That's a very long term plan.... Flemeth could come after her before it was possible to complete. And what if it isn't a mage? Morrigan would lose all her abilities. I can't help but think it's about the child's soul, not it's body.

Kimarous wrote...

I have a second theory on the matter. Maybe the plan isn't to gain the Old God's power by possessing it's body... but rather, to gain it's power over the darkspawn.

Think about it. The darkspawn deliberately seek out the Old Gods and taint them into becoming Archdemons, who then become the "hive masters", as it were, who gain control over the horde and lead them on to... um... blighting. If I recall correctly, the taint overrides the original mind of the Old God and makes them more Archdemony.

I wonder... if Flemeth/Morrigan bore the god-child and the darkspawn found and tainted said child into a humanoid Archdemon, what if Flemeth/Morrigan tried to possess the child at that point? Could she override the Archdemon's soul and retain her mind, becoming a "sane" Archdemon with the complete and utter loyalty of the horde?

I can maybe see Flemeth doing that, but I don't think Morrigan would. In any case, she's be tainted. No staying sane in that scenario even if she could some how become one with the tainted old god, and I don't see how she could. Archdemons make Flemeth look weak.

Modifié par errant_knight, 09 février 2010 - 08:20 .

[Mabari Owns High Dragon]

errant_knight wrote...

Mabari Owns High Dragon wrote...

I just think its a struggle for survival. Not to mention I think maybe Flemeth knew Morrigan was a powerful mage and that she couldn't defeat her perhaps? Or maybe Flemeth has something to do with the baby... If Flemeth melded her soul with the Arch Demon *Shudders* thats one powerful creature... human... thing.

Yeah, whatever Flemeth's plan was, I think it's probably better that Morrigan has the child. assuming that's still Morrigan, of course.

iyyillius wrote...

My interpetation was this.... morrigan upon reading the grimore discovered her mothers plan....seeing that she needs to both repel flemeth in the future and also have offspring more powerful than her n herself she chose this path to ensure that she could posses the body of her shild and become powerful enough to protect herself from flemeth.

That's a very long term plan.... Flemeth could come after her before it was possible to complete. And what if it isn't a mage? Morrigan would lose all her abilities. I can't help but think it's about the child's soul, not it's body.

Kimarous wrote...

I have a second theory on the matter. Maybe the plan isn't to gain the Old God's power by possessing it's body... but rather, to gain it's power over the darkspawn.

Think about it. The darkspawn deliberately seek out the Old Gods and taint them into becoming Archdemons, who then become the "hive masters", as it were, who gain control over the horde and lead them on to... um... blighting. If I recall correctly, the taint overrides the original mind of the Old God and makes them more Archdemony.

I wonder... if Flemeth/Morrigan bore the god-child and the darkspawn found and tainted said child into a humanoid Archdemon, what if Flemeth/Morrigan tried to possess the child at that point? Could she override the Archdemon's soul and retain her mind, becoming a "sane" Archdemon with the complete and utter loyalty of the horde?

I can maybe see Flemeth doing that, but I don't think Morrigan would. In any case, she's be tainted. No staying sane in that scenario even if she could some how become one with the tainted old god, and I don't see how she could. Archdemons make Flemeth look weak.

Even though this is a bit up in the air it is possible that this is the plan Morrigan developed. I remember her saying that she would come up with a plan to keep Flemeth away and that she wasn't dead. If the child had the power of the Arch Demon within it, it was probably much better a vessel then Morrigan. Whose to say Morrigan can't influence the child to be a female mage? We've seen she's capable of advanced magic.

[Kats_RK]

[quote]iyyillius wrote...

My interpetation was this.... morrigan upon reading the grimore discovered her mothers plan....seeing that she needs to both repel flemeth in the future and also have offspring more powerful than her n herself she chose this path to ensure that she could posses the body of her shild and become powerful enough to protect herself from flemeth.[/quote]
That's a very long term plan.... Flemeth could come after her before it was possible to complete. And what if it isn't a mage? Morrigan would lose all her abilities. I can't help but think it's about the child's soul, not it's body.

[/quote]

If the pc was mage the child would turn out being a mage.
Im 100% the kid would turn out being a mage.The old gods Told the Tevinter Mages about maigc & Stuff.
Correct me if im wrong

[Mabari Owns High Dragon]

I think Flemeth had this planned from the very beginning and she made an agreement with Morrigan to do this to the Grey Warden. Morrigans just playing dumb. Of course, once she gets close enough with him she feels bad for using him and actually wants to tell him in a way that doesn't look like shes in the plan. It seems Flemeth knows more then she says. She also can't be a normal mage to have powers like that...

[SusanStoHelit]

errant_knight wrote...

Erm, the turning away from his first creations? That's in Christianity (and presumably Judaism-someone correct me if I'm wrong), too--angels.

Nope, it's in Thedas. To wit:

"While the Chantry believes that the Maker is all-powerful and created all things, He has also often turned away from them. The Chantry believes this to be because of the faults of His creations. He will not answer prayers, or grant wishes or anything of the sort, until humanity proves itself worthy of His attention again.

It is said that a long time ago, the Maker created the Fade as His first world. His first children were the spirits of the Fade and the Maker believed he had made them in His own image. Yet the Maker turned away from his first children, because while they could alter their world at will, they lacked a soul, and could only copy, not create or imagine for themselves. Dissatisfied with the result, He left the Fade behind, creating the world of Thedas instead.

The next realm that the Maker created was one that his new creations would not be able to change at will. He separated it from the first by putting the Veil in between them, not realizing that His first children would be able to observe His new children and grow envious of their ability to envisage new things. The children that populated this new realm had the spark of the divine within them, which pleased the Maker. While their world was more
solid than that of the spirits, these creatures were able to imagine, and dream new things because of it.

But then the First Sin was committed. Malevolent beings whispered to men from across the Veil, and turned them to the worship of the Old Gods. The Maker turned away from mankind, and left the Golden City. Much later on, Andraste managed to convince the Maker to forgive his creations, but Andraste was betrayed by her mortal husband Maferath, and burned at the stake. The Maker turned away from mankind once more."

[Edited for formatting.]

Further edit: I'm not even going to get into Lucifer, or angels, or the Hebrew or Christian scriptures, because it simply isn't germane to this discussion. I assume that this (above) is what Kekse2k was referring to when they cited the Maker's first creation and him turning away from it.

Modifié par SusanStoHelit, 09 février 2010 - 10:27 .

[errant_knight]

SusanStoHelit wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

Erm, the turning away from his first creations? That's in Christianity (and presumably Judaism-someone correct me if I'm wrong), too--angels.

Nope, it's in Thedas. To wit:

"While the Chantry believes that the Maker is all-powerful and created all things, He has also often turned away from them. The Chantry believes this to be because of the faults of His creations. He will not answer prayers, or grant wishes or anything of the sort, until humanity proves itself worthy of His attention again.

It is said that a long time ago, the Maker created the Fade as His first world. His first children were the spirits of the Fade and the Maker believed he had made them in His own image. Yet the Maker turned away from his first children, because while they could alter their world at will, they lacked a soul, and could only copy, not create or imagine for themselves. Dissatisfied with the result, He left the Fade behind, creating the world of Thedas instead.

The next realm that the Maker created was one that his new creations would not be able to change at will. He separated it from the first by putting the Veil in between them, not realizing that His first children would be able to observe His new children and grow envious of their ability to envisage new things. The children that populated this new realm had the spark of the divine within them, which pleased the Maker. While their world was more
solid than that of the spirits, these creatures were able to imagine, and dream new things because of it.

But then the First Sin was committed. Malevolent beings whispered to men from across the Veil, and turned them to the worship of the Old Gods. The Maker turned away from mankind, and left the Golden City. Much later on, Andraste managed to convince the Maker to forgive his creations, but Andraste was betrayed by her mortal husband Maferath, and burned at the stake. The Maker turned away from mankind once more."

[Edited for formatting.]

Further edit: I'm not even going to get into Lucifer, or angels, or the Hebrew or Christian scriptures, because it simply isn't germane to this discussion. I assume that this (above) is what Kekse2k was referring to when they cited the Maker's first creation and him turning away from it.

I'm not sure what the quote relates to. Nobody said that wasn't the case. We know that's what the Chantry believes. I was remarking on another poster's comment about that being pretty messed up. I noted that it has direct parallel in Christianity at least. We find that it does in Islam, as well. Not so sure about Judaism....

Anyway, I don't mind if the discussion takes a tangent that may add to our understanding of the writing and the institutions within Thedas. The discussion would be very narrow if we didn't allow that. So it''s germane enough.

[Nerdage]

I was quite confused that, when Morrigan tells you "this was Flemeth's plan all along", I didn't have the option to remind her that her mother was dead (I chose to kill her when getting the grimoir). Maybe it wouldn't have made a difference, maybe Morrigan had her own reasons for doing it, but it would still be a valid point.

Modifié par nerdage, 09 février 2010 - 05:40 .