196 réponses à ce sujet

[errant_knight]

nerdage wrote...

I was quite confused that, when Morrigan tells you "this was Flemeth's plan all along", I didn't have the option to remind her that her mother was dead (I chose to kill her when getting the grimoir). Maybe it wouldn't have made a difference, maybe Morrigan had her own reasons for doing it, but it would still be a valid point.

I don't think Flemeth being dead is an issue. Morrigan clearly thought the plan was a good idea for some reason, or she wouldn't agree to it. I think the comment is there because she's saying this was always her intent, not because she's giving a reason for doing it 'now.'

[TheBlackBaron]

errant_knight wrote...

nerdage wrote...

I was quite confused that, when Morrigan tells you "this was Flemeth's plan all along", I didn't have the option to remind her that her mother was dead (I chose to kill her when getting the grimoir). Maybe it wouldn't have made a difference, maybe Morrigan had her own reasons for doing it, but it would still be a valid point.

I don't think Flemeth being dead is an issue. Morrigan clearly thought the plan was a good idea for some reason, or she wouldn't agree to it. I think the comment is there because she's saying this was always her intent, not because she's giving a reason for doing it 'now.'

That's what I was trying to get at in my other post. I think what Morrigan means is that her getting pregnant by a Grey Warden was Flemeth's original plan, but that she didn't know all the details of it, and only managed to piece it together with help from the Grimoires. She herself now has her own plan, which may start in the same place but has an entirely different purpose and end result.

Modifié par TheBlackBaron, 09 février 2010 - 08:30 .

[Demx]

Is Flemeth really dead though? In the codex it says:



"She was slain at Morrigan's behest. At least apparently..."

[TheBlackBaron]

Siradix wrote...

Is Flemeth really dead though? In the codex it says:

"She was slain at Morrigan's behest. At least apparently..."

Hence why I also said, "the child also represent freedom from Flemeth, as they couldn't have it any more obvious that she is far from dead".

She is, however, temporarily indisposed and unable to influence Morrigan, which is why she develops her own plan for the child.

[Demx]

TheBlackBaron wrote...

Siradix wrote...

Is Flemeth really dead though? In the codex it says:

"She was slain at Morrigan's behest. At least apparently..."

Hence why I also said, "the child also represent freedom from Flemeth, as they couldn't have it any more obvious that she is far from dead".

She is, however, temporarily indisposed and unable to influence Morrigan, which is why she develops her own plan for the child.

I smell disaster in Morrigan's future.

[Curlain]

I suspect that the truth what exactly what Flemeth is (and what that 'demon' she made a deal with is) is closely tied to her plan relating to the Warden and the old god child. I think Flemeth has some connection to the Old Gods already (possibly that 'demon' was a surviving aspect of the spirit of a previous Old God turned Archdemon that partially survived the destruction of it's Archdemon phase) and that this will become increasingly important in future DA expansions and sequels.



Also when Morrigan tells you that she came with you to get the soul of the Old God, she implies that what she's offering is the easiest way to achieve her aim (and the best for the both of you in her opinion) but she seems to suggest she is determined to achieve her aim in any case, and when she left in those playthroughs when I refused her, it suggested to me she was going to find another way to achieve her (and Flemeth's) aims.



I feel that however we played it, the Dark Ritual, and both the plans and the nature of Flemeth will have an increasingly important role in the world of Thedas.

[SusanStoHelit]

errant_knight wrote...

I'm not sure what the quote relates to. Nobody said that wasn't the case. We know that's what the Chantry believes. I was remarking on another poster's comment about that being pretty messed up. I noted that it has direct parallel in Christianity at least. We find that it does in Islam, as well. Not so sure about Judaism....

In the canonical scriptures, afaik there is nothing of particular significance. However, in some non-canonical Hebrew texts there are. The only one that comes to mind (although there could be more) is the matter of Lilith - Adam's first wife. She was created by God, didn't meet his standards, and was disposed of so that a new creation - Eve - could take her place.

[Ibby1kanobi]

Quick Question: I was told that even if you refuse the Dark ritual, she will still be seen with a baby at the end of the game if you romanced her at any point in the game....even if you broke it off and chose Leliana....true?



Second: I think that Morrigan IS looking to reproduce Flemeth's body transfer technique. She is always looking out for herself, and for those types of people, why not live forever by sacrificing a child every century? Easy enough to do....

[master-fluff]

Curlain wrote...

I feel that however we played it, the Dark Ritual, and both the plans and the nature of Flemeth will have an increasingly important role in the world of Thedas.

I actually wonder about the role Flemeth may have already played.  I've yet to read the books but In The Stolen Throne I understand Maric made a secret pact with Flemeth.  What did Flemeth ask Maric to do ? To allow Grey Wardens back into Ferelden ?  For Maric to father a child with a Grey Warden ?  To have a royal child who would become a Grey Warden that she could watch over ?  And how exactly did Fiona (Maric's GW elven mage squeeze, possible father of Al) survive the taint ?  Did Maric/Fiona get involved in some sort of variant of the Dark Ritual ?  And why is there a raven at Landsmeet ? If it's a familiar or lesser form of Flemeth why would she be so interested in the outcome of the Landsmeet ? 

There are so many trees to bark up that I guess we wont know which is the right one until DA2. Argh !

Modifié par master-fluff, 09 février 2010 - 11:27 .

[errant_knight]

Darn double post....

Modifié par errant_knight, 09 février 2010 - 11:43 .

[errant_knight]

SusanStoHelit wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

I'm not sure what the quote relates to. Nobody said that wasn't the case. We know that's what the Chantry believes. I was remarking on another poster's comment about that being pretty messed up. I noted that it has direct parallel in Christianity at least. We find that it does in Islam, as well. Not so sure about Judaism....

In the canonical scriptures, afaik there is nothing of particular significance. However, in some non-canonical Hebrew texts there are. The only one that comes to mind (although there could be more) is the matter of Lilith - Adam's first wife. She was created by God, didn't meet his standards, and was disposed of so that a new creation - Eve - could take her place.

Thanks for the additional information! I admit, that while the parallel in the religion of the Chantry is interesting, I mainly wanted to know the details of this out of pure curiosity.

Ibby1kanobi wrote...

Quick Question: I was told that even if you refuse the Dark ritual, she will still be seen with a baby at the end of the game if you romanced her at any point in the game....even if you broke it off and chose Leliana....true?

Second: I think that Morrigan IS looking to reproduce Flemeth's body transfer technique. She is always looking out for herself, and for those types of people, why not live forever by sacrificing a child every century? Easy enough to do....

I believe there are endings where there is no sign of a child and someone that sounds like her appears at the Orleisian court.

Your second point doesn't make sense to me, I'm afraid. If all she wants is a body, why go to the trouble to acquire a god? It worked fine for Flemeth to just make use of locals.

Master-Fluff wrote....
And why is there a raven at Landsmeet ?

Theres a Raven at Landsmeet, too? Well, along with the one at Ostagar, that just can't be a coincidence....

Modifié par errant_knight, 09 février 2010 - 11:46 .

[SusanStoHelit]

Ibby1kanobi wrote...

Quick Question: I was told that even if you refuse the Dark ritual, she will still be seen with a baby at the end of the game if you romanced her at any point in the game....even if you broke it off and chose Leliana....true?

* If you are a male warden, and you romanced Morrigan, and did the Ritual - Old God baby.

* If you are a male warden, and you romanced Morrigan, and refused the Ritual - baby, but not an old god one (you did have sex with her, after all).

* If you are a female warden, and you have someone else do the Ritual - Old God baby.

* If you are a female warden, and you refuse the Ritual - no baby at all (because M. didn't have sex with anyone).

[Edited for clarity and formatting.]

Modifié par SusanStoHelit, 09 février 2010 - 11:54 .

[Demx]

Chantry Crusades, " Exalted Marches," against the Tevinter Imperium, Dales, Imperial Chantry, and the Qunari.

Christian Crusades against the Seljuk Turks, Muslims, Egyptians, and the Tunisians.



Looks like a parallel of medieval Christianity.

[SusanStoHelit]

errant_knight wrote...

Yeah, I'm definitely no religious scholar, but I seem to remember reading something.... I know the Lucifer as fallen angel doesn't even appear in the bible. There's a passage about a defeated Babylonian king whose name was latinized to 'Lucifer' in the middle ages, but that's it. I don't think there's any reference to a 'fallen angel' at all, but the myth of the resentful angel must have come from somewhere..... 

Lucifer (Lat. light-bringer). In the Vulgate and the Authorized Version of Isaiah 14:12 "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer", where this was an epithet for the king of Babylon. By some of the early church fathers it was taken in conjunction with Luke 10:18, 'He replied, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven', as a name for the devil, so that the whole passage in Isaiah 14:12-16 became one basis for the myth (developed in Milton's Paradise Lost) that the devil is a rebellious angel cast into hell.

I think you did pretty well, errant_knight, lol.

[Edited for clarity and spelling, urgh!]

Modifié par SusanStoHelit, 10 février 2010 - 12:12 .

[master-fluff]

errant_knight wrote...

Theres a Raven at Landsmeet, too? Well, along with the one at Ostagar, that just can't be a coincidence....

Yup, sitting up in the rafters.  Cutscene camera pans up and spends a moment focussing on it. 

What's that about, huh ?

Modifié par master-fluff, 10 février 2010 - 12:15 .

[SusanStoHelit]

master-fluff wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

Theres a Raven at Landsmeet, too? Well, along with the one at Ostagar, that just can't be a coincidence....

Yup, sitting up in the rafters.  Cutscene camera pans up and spends a moment focussing on it. 

What's that about, huh ?

There's one at Warden's Keep as well.

[Myusha]

I can see Morrigan potentially using the child to destroy Flemeth, if the old god stills does destroy souls, if she raises it to be a mage.



However in retrospective that would aid Flemeth in no way except perhaps suicide. So my theory's debunked easily. Overall I expect an elaborate plan from Morrigan/Flemeth that mgiht effect the sequel.

[Bann Duncan]

draxynnus wrote...

Kekse2k wrote...

errant_knight wrote...
That is interesting! Who would have thought that we'd have an almost-confirmation of some of the Chantry's teachings from Morrigan, of all people!
Erm, the turning away from his first creations? That's in Christianity (and presumably Judaism-someone correct me if I'm wrong), too--angels.

Mmm I am rather uninformed concerning religion. I do remember, though, that in Christianity, there was the creation of...light and dark, land and ocean, foliage and...stuff...beasts of the land, sea, and air, and then came Man, followed by Woman. If I am ridiculously off, blame my memory, and beat it with a candlestick (in all seriousness, I don't mean to offend with my ignorance).

Indeed - Christianity, from memory, never actually talks about where the angels come from - they simply pop up when needed.

Islam, however, talks about the djinn being made from "smokeless fire" as humanity was made from clay, and then God placed humanity over them in his favour. That's how Shaitan fell, in fact - Allah demanded that the angels bow to Adam, and Shaitan and his followers refused, and were cast out of Heaven in punishment.

Angels and jinn bow to Adam - the way you've written it seems to place Shaitan among the angels while he is among the jinn.

Also, there is of course also the concept of good jinn in Islam.

[Curlain]

Siradix wrote...

Chantry Crusades, " Exalted Marches," against the Tevinter Imperium, Dales, Imperial Chantry, and the Qunari.
Christian Crusades against the Seljuk Turks, Muslims, Egyptians, and the Tunisians.

Looks like a parallel of medieval Christianity.

I think we need to be careful in drawing direct parallels to between the Chantry and our own world religions.  The Exalted marches could be seen to mirror crusades of medieval western Christendom, or the various jihads of Islam, or even other wars in in ancient times (Alexander possibly believing his conquests and rule of the world was the will of Zeus his believed father for example).  I think that there are a number of parallels with a number of ancient, medieval and early modern religious organizations and figures that are broadly used as inspiration for the Chantry, Andraste and everything else, but it's a mistake to say the writers used or are intending direct parallels here.  This is this world's own religion, and is intended as so, so I don't think anything is directly mirroring actual events or faiths of our world, just in some cases taking some inspiration from historic events and organizations for creating the faiths of Thedas.

So yep, I think making the Exalted Marches equal any actual event in our world is going to far, and it should really just be judged and argued from it's context ingame as it were

[Demx]

Whoa you read way too much into those two lines.



The Chantry has Exalted Marches which are religious crusades, who else performed religious crusades medieval Christians. I'm not saying that the Tevinter Imperium is equivalent to any actual crusade. Those were simply crusades what each group did, nothing more.

[errant_knight]

[quote]Curlain wrote...

[quote]Siradix wrote...

Chantry Crusades, " Exalted Marches," against the Tevinter Imperium, Dales, Imperial Chantry, and the Qunari.
Christian Crusades against the Seljuk Turks, Muslims, Egyptians, and the Tunisians.

Looks like a parallel of medieval Christianity.[/quote]

I think we need to be careful in drawing direct parallels to between the Chantry and our own world religions.  The Exalted marches could be seen to mirror crusades of medieval western Christendom, or the various jihads of Islam, or even other wars in in ancient times (Alexander possibly believing his conquests and rule of the world was the will of Zeus his believed father for example).  I think that there are a number of parallels with a number of ancient, medieval and early modern religious organizations and figures that are broadly used as inspiration for the Chantry, Andraste and everything else, but it's a mistake to say the writers used or are intending direct parallels here.  This is this world's own religion, and is intended as so, so I don't think anything is directly mirroring actual events or faiths of our world, just in some cases taking some inspiration from historic events and organizations for creating the faiths of Thedas.

So yep, I think making the Exalted Marches equal any actual event in our world is going to far, and it should really just be judged and argued from it's context ingame as it were
[/quote]

Yes, I agree, there are similarities, but there are also differences, probably more than we realize.

quote]SusanStoHelit wrote...

errant_knight wrote...



[quote]Yeah, I'm definitely no religious scholar, but I seem to remember reading something.... I know the Lucifer as fallen angel doesn't even appear in the bible. There's a passage about a defeated Babylonian king whose name was latinized to 'Lucifer' in the middle ages, but that's it. I don't think there's any reference to a 'fallen angel' at all, but the myth of the resentful angel must have come from somewhere.....  [/quote]

Lucifer (Lat. light-bringer). In the Vulgate and the Authorized Version of Isaiah 14:12 "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer", where this was an epithet for the king of Babylon. By some of the early church fathers it was taken in conjunction with Luke 10:18, 'He replied, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven', as a name for the devil, so that the whole passage in Isaiah 14:12-16 became one basis for the myth (developed in Milton's Paradise Lost) that the devil is a rebellious angel cast into hell.

I think you did pretty well, errant_knight, lol.

[Edited for clarity and spelling, urgh!]

[/quote]

Heh, good to know that I wasn't imagining things! Thanks, Susan!

Modifié par errant_knight, 10 février 2010 - 01:19 .

[Demx]

Any who, if I was going to say Chantry = Christians, I would do it this way.

Chantry - an endowment to cover expenses for the saying of masses and prayers, usually for the soul of the founder of the endowment. An altar or chapel endowed for the saying of such masses and prayers.

Chantries were usually separate areas within a church or cathedral, surrounded by oak screens or elaborately-carved stone with heraldic designs. An effigy of the founder was often included.

The earliest chantry chapels were created in the 13th century. One is recorded in England as far back as 1235, for Bishop Hugh of Wells in Lincoln cathedral. A chantry was added to Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris in 1258. In the 14th century, chantries became so ingrained in religious life that they started to be included in the original plans of new cathedrals. When the Black Death resulted in a marked increase in foundations, chantries were included in monasteries, hospitals, and schools as well as cathedrals.

[Ymladdych]

I think it's interesting that there's such a diverse range of opinions about Morrigan's possible motivations, but yet there doesn't seem to be much variance with regard to players' perceptions of Flemeth. I'm just curious...what exactly causes everyone (or almost everyone) to see her as the bad guy here...or at the very least, a greater threat than Morrigan herself?

[Demx]

Ymladdych wrote...

I think it's interesting that there's such a diverse range of opinions about Morrigan's possible motivations, but yet there doesn't seem to be much variance with regard to players' perceptions of Flemeth. I'm just curious...what exactly causes everyone (or almost everyone) to see her as the bad guy here...or at the very least, a greater threat than Morrigan herself?

As far as threats are concerned Flemeth could change into a dragon. My Morrigan could only transform into a bear and spider. So that kinda reduces the threat for me.

[Ymladdych]

Okay, so she's powerful, but does that necessarily mean she's evil? Case in point: when does she turn into a dragon? When you're trying to kill her, right?



In one conversation with Morrigan, she mentions that Flemeth would warn encroaching templars to stand down. Only when they persisted to hunt her would she kill them. Do you think Morrigan would offer these men the same chance or would she have just killed them? Flemeth even expresses dismay that men would kill for her when she was young and beautiful. Would Morrigan feel such regret? Flemeth extends sympathy to Alistair for Duncan's loss. Morrigan, on the other hand, takes pleasure in tormenting him about it.



On the point of the archdemon, Flemeth warns the Warden "not to pray that someone else will end the Blight." Sound like a warning to you? Sure sounds like a warning to me. Then she goes on to say that "Whether or not you believe the archdemon is an Old God...history says it's a fearsome and immortal thing...and only fools ignore history." Another warning perhaps?



I don't know...I guess I don't find it very reassuring when I hear Morrigan's battle cry: "You will learn to fear me!" Really? I'll have to keep that in mind.