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[errant_knight]

Ymladdych wrote...

I think it's interesting that there's such a diverse range of opinions about Morrigan's possible motivations, but yet there doesn't seem to be much variance with regard to players' perceptions of Flemeth. I'm just curious...what exactly causes everyone (or almost everyone) to see her as the bad guy here...or at the very least, a greater threat than Morrigan herself?

On my first two playthroughs, I thought Morrigan was yanking our chain about Flemeth, and didn't do the quest. I also felt like it was poor repayment for her rescue from the tower. She even saved my dog, y'know? Well, I went to talk to Flemeth when Morrigan gave the quest, but walked away when I wasn't able to find out what was really going on. It doesn't help that Flemeth is actually more likable than Morrigan.

The third time, I killed Flemeth and found the robes of possession that would seem to be confirmation of Flemeth's intent toward Morrigan, and I talked to Morrigan more (or better) before the dark ritual, and found out that it was Flemeth's plan all along, and the whole reason we were rescued from the tower. That took away a whole lot of the guilt about killing her, I must say. At the same time, it likely means that Morrigan was lying about a number of things. Heck, she could be lying about that! Man, there's a lot of liars in this game.... No wonder the only person I trust completely is Alistair.... Well, that's not entirely fair. Sten and Oghren never lie either.

I still don't think we have any idea what's going on or what the intentions of either Morrigan or Flemeth are. Flemeth is more powerful, and therefore more dangerous, but there's some pretty odd remarks from her about Morrigan, too. I have no idea what's going on with either of them. Flemeth is scarier, though.

Modifié par errant_knight, 10 février 2010 - 03:12 .

[Demx]

Ymladdych wrote...

Okay, so she's powerful, but does that necessarily mean she's evil? Case in point: when does she turn into a dragon? When you're trying to kill her, right?

In one conversation with Morrigan, she mentions that Flemeth would warn encroaching templars to stand down. Only when they persisted to hunt her would she kill them. Do you think Morrigan would offer these men the same chance or would she have just killed them? Flemeth even expresses dismay that men would kill for her when she was young and beautiful. Would Morrigan feel such regret? Flemeth extends sympathy to Alistair for Duncan's loss. Morrigan, on the other hand, takes pleasure in tormenting him about it.

On the point of the archdemon, Flemeth warns the Warden "not to pray that someone else will end the Blight." Sound like a warning to you? Sure sounds like a warning to me. Then she goes on to say that "Whether or not you believe the archdemon is an Old God...history says it's a fearsome and immortal thing...and only fools ignore history." Another warning perhaps?

I don't know...I guess I don't find it very reassuring when I hear Morrigan's battle cry: "You will learn to fear me!" Really? I'll have to keep that in mind.

That wasn't how you phrased your original question.

Ymladdych wrote...

what exactly causes everyone (or almost everyone) to see her as the bad guy here...or at the very least, a greater threat than Morrigan herself?

Besides do you really think she rescued you out of the kindness of her own heart? Her plan was to make you give her a God Child. She was going to use the robes to control Morrigan and was probably keeping track of where Morrigan went with that ring, that Morrigan gives you later. Morrigan is more like a copycat.

Modifié par Siradix, 10 février 2010 - 03:05 .

[Ymladdych]

Modifié par Ymladdych, 28 septembre 2011 - 01:20 .

[Ymladdych]

Modifié par Ymladdych, 28 septembre 2011 - 01:20 .

[errant_knight]

Ymladdych wrote...

Flemeth is scarier in that (at this point in time) she's more powerful than Morrigan and nobody knows *what* she really is.

As for what Morrigan says about Flemeth's wishes...I don't trust that at all. I will say that the robes of possession don't look good for Team Flemeth, though.

On the other hand, there's a codex that you get from speaking with an Ash Warrior at Ostagar: The Legend of Luthias Dwarfson. It's an interesting read, especially when combined with the information from Morrigan that a. Flemeth told her she didn't remember how the barbarian wars started (started by a woman named Morrighan'nan) b. Flemeth most likely has the capability to shapeshift into other humans (the hero's lost love returns the night before battle for one night of makeup sex and then gives him chainmail that ultimately fails him in battle, although he kills Morrighan'nan before he dies). There are some other...relevant points in the story but I'll leave those for you to read.

But what if the Black Grimoire revealed to Morrigan that her mother has been re-ensouling her into fetuses for the last several centuries? What if Flemeth's immortality isn't based on possessing Morrigan but simply making sure she stays alive? Kind of similar to the bond between Zathrian and Witherfang? That would be the sort of thing that might drive a PO'd Morrigan to seek out uncontrollable power out of vengeance and/or powerlust. (Part of me wonders if Morrigan isn't actually Andraste re-ensouled, but that's a whole other tangent.)

I've never gotten that codex. Very interesting! And  I bet the similarity in name is no coincidence. I've been toying with the idea that Morrigan isn't what we think her any more than Flemeth it, and may well have had as long a life, although she may not remember it. I have a feeling that Flemeth and Morrigan have been through all this before. I just can't figure out how, or what it means.

[Demx]

Well I don't know how else to say that she's gives off an evil presence, because I know if I mention the Chantry or what Leliana said, you will probably say something like Morrigan was right about Flemeth on that point.

[errant_knight]

Siradix wrote...

Well I don't know how else to say that she's gives off an evil presence, because I know if I mention the Chantry or what Leliana said, you will probably say something like Morrigan was right about Flemeth on that point.

Sorry, I don't know what you're referring to.... I'm probably not the only one.

[Brockololly]

Yeah I remember the codex entry from the Ash Warrior- for what its worth I'm quite sure someone brought this up quite a while ago and Gaider mentioned that particular story was written very early on and pure coincidence to Morrigan- you can probably dig it up by searching on dragonagecentral.com



As for Morrigan and Flemeth- the problem I have with Flemeth and to a lesser extent Morrigan, is that at the end of the game we really don't know anything more about their motives than we did at the beginning of the game- for every question they answer, about 3-4 more are raised.



Flemeth just talks so cryptically that you can never get a feel for what she is getting at and her whole ability to seemingly see into the future makes her seem quite powerful. I would wager that even if you killed her in your game, she definitely has a role to play in future DA games, so long as Morrigan is still around.



Personally, I would trust Morrigan more than Flemeth- at least if you romance her or become her friend. You see that she has genuine emotions for the Warden at that point and isn't just some totally scheming villain. That said, I doubt she wants an Old God Baby just for the sake of having a kid- she is up to something, but I'll be damned if I know what she is up to.



An idea though maybe how Morrigan could link into Awakening: We know from the Calling that the Architect wants to kill all of the Old Gods and turn everyone into darkspawn. Yet if we believe Morrigan, she wants to preserve the soul of an Old God. It would seem that Morrigan and the Architect wouldn't exactly get along...

[Brockololly]

Double post

Modifié par Brockololly, 10 février 2010 - 04:28 .

[errant_knight]

That's very interesting, but you probably should remove the book spoilers. people won't be expecting them here. I'm going to pretend I didn't hear that.... *lalalalalala....*

[Demx]

What I am saying is this, you believe what Morrigan says about Flemeth here.

Ymladdych wrote...

In one conversation with Morrigan, she mentions that Flemeth would warn encroaching templars to stand down. Only when they persisted to hunt her would she kill them. Do you think Morrigan would offer these men the same chance or would she have just killed them? Flemeth even expresses dismay that men would kill for her when she was young and beautiful. Would Morrigan feel such regret? Flemeth extends sympathy to Alistair for Duncan's loss. Morrigan, on the other hand, takes pleasure in tormenting him about it.

Then you say

Ymladdych wrote...

As for what Morrigan says about Flemeth's wishes...I don't trust that at all. I will say that the robes of possession don't look good for Team Flemeth, though.

Ymladdych wrote...

As for why she rescued me...you know what? I don't really know why she rescued me. Morrigan says it was to produce a God child, but that's heresay from someone who's freely admitted that she manipulates people to get what she wants.

Leliana say Flemeth is the devourer of men and spirits away girls to be bound by Flemeth's side forever. The chantry calls Flemeth an abomination.

Modifié par Siradix, 10 février 2010 - 04:42 .

[Addai]

I just came across a dialogue with Morrigan I hadn't noticed before. You can talk to her about the ritual if she's in your party for the final battle. I am wondering how people interpret this, in particular when she says (I hope I'm remembering this right):

PC: Got what you came for, did you?
M: Yes, I did. And let me remind you that you get something out of this, too. If you want to spend the rest of your life resentful for it, that is your choice, but it lasts only so long as the child within me.

Say what?? What lasts only so long as the child within her? Your thoughts on what she means here? BTW if you just thank her nicely, she is very flustered (guilty, perhaps, hmmmm?) and says "that means a great deal to me... you have no idea..."

Modifié par Addai67, 10 février 2010 - 06:56 .

[Ibby1kanobi]

errant_knight wrote...

Ibby1kanobi wrote...

Quick Question: I was told that even if you refuse the Dark ritual, she will still be seen with a baby at the end of the game if you romanced her at any point in the game....even if you broke it off and chose Leliana....true?

Second: I think that Morrigan IS looking to reproduce Flemeth's body transfer technique. She is always looking out for herself, and for those types of people, why not live forever by sacrificing a child every century? Easy enough to do....

I believe there are endings where there is no sign of a child and someone that sounds like her appears at the Orleisian court.

Your second point doesn't make sense to me, I'm afraid. If all she wants is a body, why go to the trouble to acquire a god? It worked fine for Flemeth to just make use of locals.

Umm....The power? I'm almost fairly certain taking the body of an old god would grant you immense power. Remember when Morrigan says that her mother sent her out with the PC to gain and expand her power, making it easier and better for taking her body later on. Same for the body that held the soul of an old god.

[Doyle41]

Brockololly wrote...

Yeah I remember the codex entry from the Ash Warrior- for what its worth I'm quite sure someone brought this up quite a while ago and Gaider mentioned that particular story was written very early on and pure coincidence to Morrigan- you can probably dig it up by searching on dragonagecentral.com

As for Morrigan and Flemeth- the problem I have with Flemeth and to a lesser extent Morrigan, is that at the end of the game we really don't know anything more about their motives than we did at the beginning of the game- for every question they answer, about 3-4 more are raised.

Flemeth just talks so cryptically that you can never get a feel for what she is getting at and her whole ability to seemingly see into the future makes her seem quite powerful. I would wager that even if you killed her in your game, she definitely has a role to play in future DA games, so long as Morrigan is still around.

Personally, I would trust Morrigan more than Flemeth- at least if you romance her or become her friend. You see that she has genuine emotions for the Warden at that point and isn't just some totally scheming villain. That said, I doubt she wants an Old God Baby just for the sake of having a kid- she is up to something, but I'll be damned if I know what she is up to.

An idea though maybe how Morrigan could link into Awakening: We know from the Calling that the Architect wants to kill all of the Old Gods and turn everyone into darkspawn. Yet if we believe Morrigan, she wants to preserve the soul of an Old God. It would seem that Morrigan and the Architect wouldn't exactly get along...

Morrigan is no better or worse than Flemeth. In The Stolen Throne and The Callen, Flemeth had warned Maric of the Blight and of Loghains betrayal. Morrigan also said she didn't know why her mother saved you from the tower. However, later on, she said she was meant to go with the wardens and obtain the Old God. She also knew of the ritual, but never mentioned it until the end, saying, you wouldn't have believed her. Hmmm, don't know about you but that succubus had me from hello. As far as the Architect goes, it would seem as though he would need to eliminate Morrigan to achieve his goal. How Morrigan plans to keep the Old God untainted and from becoming an archdemon seems like an impossible task, but..........

[GeorgeZip]

errant_knight wrote...

The alternatives, that I can see, is that Flemeth and Morrigan had discussed the idea in hypotheticals but Morrigan did in fact not realise that this was actually why Flemeth sent her with the Wardens until afterwards, or that while the plan had been prearranged, Morrigan didn't expect to be dispatched just yet. (Even if, logically, the pair would never have had a better opportunity to attach Morrigan to the remaining Wardens, Morrigan may have genuinely been caught off-balance by how quickly things developed - and the original plan may well not have taken into account the possibility that the Ferelden Wardens might be reduced to just two in desperate need of any assistance they could get. Morrigan may have been expecting some Machiavellian plan to get her in among the organisation of Grey Wardens that existed pre-Ostagar, while Flemeth just saw the opportunity and took it.)

EDIT: Regarding the angel thing, I think that's only explicitly stated in Islamic texts, but I'm no religious scholar so don't quote me on that.

This seems right to me.  Something she read in the grimoire made Morrigan change plans.  Flemeth probably left out a key bit of information in the plan prior to sending Morrigan with the Wardens.  And I don't think that information was what Morrigan told you, namely that Flemeth wanted to take over her body.  When you confront Flemeth later she hints that Morrigan knows how Flemeth "extends her life, but do you?"  I bet the dark ritual was described in the grimoire and Flemeth was going to benefit from it at Morrigans expense.  So Morrigan desperately needed Flemeth dead.

Maybe both Flemeth and Morrigan gave you half truths.  Flemeth intended to have Morrigan sire an old god baby.  She prepared Morrigan for this then sent her away before she felt ready.  Morrigan then finds out the purpose, Flemeth was not going to steal Morrigans body, but was going to steal the old god's body and soul.   Morrigan didn't like finding out she was going to be used this way, she wanted to "preserve old things", and would have a mother's instinct to protect her future baby; so she wanted Flemeth dead.

There's probably a hole in this but it makes sense at the moment.

[errant_knight]

Ibby1kanobi wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

Ibby1kanobi wrote...

Quick Question: I was told that even if you refuse the Dark ritual, she will still be seen with a baby at the end of the game if you romanced her at any point in the game....even if you broke it off and chose Leliana....true?

Second: I think that Morrigan IS looking to reproduce Flemeth's body transfer technique. She is always looking out for herself, and for those types of people, why not live forever by sacrificing a child every century? Easy enough to do....

I believe there are endings where there is no sign of a child and someone that sounds like her appears at the Orleisian court.

Your second point doesn't make sense to me, I'm afraid. If all she wants is a body, why go to the trouble to acquire a god? It worked fine for Flemeth to just make use of locals.

Umm....The power? I'm almost fairly certain taking the body of an old god would grant you immense power. Remember when Morrigan says that her mother sent her out with the PC to gain and expand her power, making it easier and better for taking her body later on. Same for the body that held the soul of an old god.

Maybe, but she doesn't even know that the child will be a mage. It's a genetic toss up. And there's no guarantee or knowledge of what kind of power may come from it's soul. The body is human.

[draxynnus]

Siradix wrote...

Whoa you read way too much into those two lines.

The Chantry has Exalted Marches which are religious crusades, who else performed religious crusades medieval Christians. I'm not saying that the Tevinter Imperium is equivalent to any actual crusade. Those were simply crusades what each group did, nothing more.

And Islam had its holy wars, especially shortly after its birth. The Chantry thus has parallels with both - Andraste is clearly a Jesus-like figure, but Andrastianism has the parallel with Islam in that it was born on what was seen as the outskirts of civilisation and rapidly expanded into a dominant force, while Christianity for a century or two was just another cult skulking around among the dominant civilisation of the day until one of the Roman emperors decided it could be useful.

[naledgeborn]

Just a couple relevant points. The Cousland Warden & Flemeth/Morrigan already have a history. The story goes that Flemeth killed Teryn Connabar for stiffing the bard Osen of money/power. Connabar was the first (teryn/arl/bann??) of Highever. When Flemeth killed him his titles and riches went to his Knight Commander Serim Cousland. Coincidence? Maybe that's why Flemeth "recognizes" the Cousland Warden first time they meet. That a male Warden Cousland ends up Morrigan's baby daddy is just a little too coincidental. Great job BW, your game has me fishing thru the codex.

[Helios969]

Am I the only one that sees Morrigan and Flemeth thing as a huge sequel? (And boy, do I really, really hope so.) I see two possible scenarios.



One, Morrigan and Flemeth have been in cahoots all along with the intent of reviving the "Old Gods." Whether you kill Flemeth or not doesn't really matter. Morrigan herself admits Flemeth wouldn't truly be dead. And if you explored the various dialogues with her, Morrigan and Flemeth played "games" with the Templars who came for them, and their own relationship is rather unique. There is respect and much admiration, but also underlying resentment (at least on Morrigan's side.)



The second possibility and more dynamic scenario is that Flemeth and Morrigan were working together but Morrigan decides to run at the end to raise and "control" the god growing in her womb.



In either case, I can see in a sequel Morrigan returning confessing a terrible mistake and needing help against the God she had sought to control but that grew beyond her control. Or maybe Flemeth finds her and steals the babe away. The child will be evil, of that I am certain.



For those of you familiar with Arthurian Lore, the who ritual smacks of Morgan Le Fay seducing King Arthur with the aid of magic. She gets pregnant and has a boy. The boy grows up and returns to reek havoc on the lands.

[Doyle41]

What happens if you made the sacrifice and Morrigan is seen , possibly with child. Whispers say, she was once your pc's lover?

How does this play into the scenerio, if the child doesn't absorb the essence of the archdemon.

[Helios969]

Doyle41 wrote...

What happens if you made the sacrifice and Morrigan is seen , possibly with child. Whispers say, she was once your pc's lover?

How does this play into the scenerio, if the child doesn't absorb the essence of the archdemon.

I'm sure the writers have something in mind in that event.  But my guess is that the majority of players accepted the ritual - if not in their initial play through, then a subsequent one.  There are always issues to overcome, but good writers can create the appropriate scenario(s).

I could be wrong that the writers had this in mind for a major sequel, but I hope not.  I think there's an excellent storyline that could be developed around Morrigan and Flemeth and the characters we played through with.  Maybe the game would be based on whether you accepted the ritual or not - either by analyzing your previous games or by answer a series of questions to establish the past.

[DarkCamel]

Fascinating discussions.



Another possible foreshadowing:

Flemeth tells the four Wardens to tell their leaders that "this blight is a greater threat than they realize". Why would she think the Wardens underestimate a blight? Certainly the non-Wardens did not realize the threat, but her audience during this conversation is exclusively Wardens. Wardens whose leaders know the dangers of blights. Is there something special or nefarious (other than her own plans) about this particular blight? Is it simply character motivation? Or perhaps Flemeth is being truthful, and the real threat which the Wardens do not realize is Flemeth's own plan for the blight - that ending the blight via a dark ritual results in a much greater threat than the current blight itself.

[Addai]

Ymladdych wrote...

I think it's interesting that there's such a diverse range of opinions about Morrigan's possible motivations, but yet there doesn't seem to be much variance with regard to players' perceptions of Flemeth. I'm just curious...what exactly causes everyone (or almost everyone) to see her as the bad guy here...or at the very least, a greater threat than Morrigan herself?

My characters are always torn.  Flemeth does save your life.  And only an idiot would not see that you're being played no matter what you do.  However, the fact that Flemeth does not deny what you're saying, and makes a veiled threat against Morrigan ("maybe I surprise her someday"), usually convinces me.  By that point my PCs are usually friends with Morrigan and simply can't let it go.

[bluecuban]

 One thing Morrigan does say about killing Flemeth is that even killing her may not stop her.  So how do we know she even really died (assuming you slay her)?
Myself and some others have noticed this: near the end when she offers you the ritual, parts of her hair appear to have become a bit more grey, seemingly the same color as Flemeth's.  This is even if you kill Flemeth.  Sure, it could just be a lighting trick, but what if it was symbolic?  So who's to say she hasn't already begun transferring herself into Morrigan?  For all we know, you weren't being offered the ritual by Morrigan, but by Flemeth inside Morrigan's now possessed body.
If that is Flemeth inside her, then of course she knows about transferring her essence into others, and would thus eventually transfer herself into the child.  Mixing her soul with an old god?  That sounds like a good plan for the Witch of the Wilds. 
In prep for the eventual arguments, yes, I know that when offered the ritual Morrigan can have certain dialog if she was romanced.  Still, Flemeth could have been doing that to make you still believe it's Morrigan.
Sure, this could qualify as a Dragon Age conspiracy theory, but you never know.  At least not until the sequel.

[Curlain]

bluecuban wrote...

 One thing Morrigan does say about killing Flemeth is that even killing her may not stop her.  So how do we know she even really died (assuming you slay her)?
Myself and some others have noticed this: near the end when she offers you the ritual, parts of her hair appear to have become a bit more grey, seemingly the same color as Flemeth's.  This is even if you kill Flemeth.  Sure, it could just be a lighting trick, but what if it was symbolic?  So who's to say she hasn't already begun transferring herself into Morrigan?  For all we know, you weren't being offered the ritual by Morrigan, but by Flemeth inside Morrigan's now possessed body.
If that is Flemeth inside her, then of course she knows about transferring her essence into others, and would thus eventually transfer herself into the child.  Mixing her soul with an old god?  That sounds like a good plan for the Witch of the Wilds. 
In prep for the eventual arguments, yes, I know that when offered the ritual Morrigan can have certain dialog if she was romanced.  Still, Flemeth could have been doing that to make you still believe it's Morrigan.
Sure, this could qualify as a Dragon Age conspiracy theory, but you never know.  At least not until the sequel.

It could also be that when (or if) Flemeth possesses her daughters it might not be as immediate or crude a process as the demon possession we have seen elsewhere (and even then, the other persona is not destroyed at first, as we see with Connor) and might be a gradual merging and subtly transformation of personality.  This might also necessitate a daughter that Flemeth brought up herself, so she can shape that daughter's personality as much as possible to ensure her future self is as much like her as possible (kinda like a darker version of Doctor Who's regenerations in which each new Doctor is slightly different, and in Flemeth's case it might be because each new Flemeth is a merger between the original Flemeth abomination and the daughter).  Perhaps Flemeth dying is part of this process in any case, or that with her physical death Flemeth uses more subtle methods of infiltration as it were.

In any case, I agree, I notice in most of my playthroughs a definite difference in Morrigan at Redcliffe with the Dark Ritual that often seems out of character with how she has acted (or seemed to change should I say) up to that point.  And in the playthroughs where my male PCs have romanced her the changes seems to begin slightly sooner, beginning # initially once I killed Flemeth and gave her the grimoire (which perhaps that is what initiates the possession/soul merging no matter what choice we decide with Flemeth) she changes her greeting to my character from a girlish laugh to 'your desire', probably is a change that doesn't mean anything, but I always found it strange (and on my first playthrough I actual though it might mean Flemeth had possessed her despite my killing her body )