196 réponses à ce sujet

[Demx]

draxynnus wrote...

Siradix wrote...

Whoa you read way too much into those two lines.

The Chantry has Exalted Marches which are religious crusades, who else performed religious crusades medieval Christians. I'm not saying that the Tevinter Imperium is equivalent to any actual crusade. Those were simply crusades what each group did, nothing more.

And Islam had its holy wars, especially shortly after its birth. The Chantry thus has parallels with both - Andraste is clearly a Jesus-like figure, but Andrastianism has the parallel with Islam in that it was born on what was seen as the outskirts of civilization and rapidly expanded into a dominant force, while Christianity for a century or two was just another cult skulking around among the dominant civilization of the day until one of the Roman emperors decided it could be useful.

Wait are you telling me that Christianity was simply a cult lurking in the shadows, until the Roman Empire found a political use for it?

Are you forgetting that they were prosecuted for their practices and burtley put to death. Christianity became popular because of their beliefs not a political move by anyone. Unlike other the cults that populated Rome, Christianity made an individual feel safe about the afterlife because it was irrevocable and there was a clear goal at the end of ones life.  Many cults were also male only, and Christianity was open to everyone.  During this time many people also felt devalued and guilty for who they were, Christianity opened up to those who were shunned by society and told them not to give up because they would have a better life in the next. Those who were Christians also help one another in their community and were bound by common rites and a common way of life. They cared for the orphans, the unemployed, widows, old, and disabled. This is why they were seen as a threat. During a time where women are seen as subordinates, religion offered them an equal stepping ground to men. Christianity proved to be popular amongst the women in Rome because of their vision of community where everyone is equal. This is what made Christianity popular, not because the government found a use for it.

Modifié par Siradix, 10 février 2010 - 08:35 .

[SusanStoHelit]

Siradix wrote...

Wait are you telling me that Christianity was simply a cult lurking in the shadows, until the Roman Empire found a political use for it?

Are you forgetting that they were prosecuted for their practices and burtley put to death. Christianity became popular because of their beliefs not a political move by anyone. Unlike other the cults that populated Rome, Christianity made an individual feel safe about the afterlife because it was irrevocable and there was a clear goal at the end of ones life.  Many cults were also male only, and Christianity was open to everyone.  During this time many people also felt devalued and guilty for who they were, Christianity opened up to those who were shunned by society and told them not to give up because they would have a better life in the next. Those who were Christians also help one another in their community and were bound by common rites and a common way of life. They cared for the orphans, the unemployed, widows, old, and disabled. This is why they were seen as a threat. During a time where women are seen as subordinates, religion offered them an equal stepping ground to men. Christianity proved to be popular amongst the women in Rome because of their vision of community where everyone is equal. This is what made Christianity popular, not because the government found a use for it.

No, Christianity grew and became accepted socially and politically when a Roman Emperor, Constantine, converted to Christianity and made it the official state religion. Scholars are still arguing about whether he did so for personal/spiritual reasons or political ones - or both. I'm not saying Christianity didn't offer all those other things to believers, but you're offering a personal viewpoint not an accepted academic or historical perspective.

That, however, is also beside the point. None of this is about Flemeth and Morrigan - and their plans. Let's stick to the topic, hmmm?

[Ibby1kanobi]

draxynnus wrote...

Siradix wrote...

Whoa you read way too much into those two lines.

The Chantry has Exalted Marches which are religious crusades, who else performed religious crusades medieval Christians. I'm not saying that the Tevinter Imperium is equivalent to any actual crusade. Those were simply crusades what each group did, nothing more.

And Islam had its holy wars, especially shortly after its birth. The Chantry thus has parallels with both - Andraste is clearly a Jesus-like figure, but Andrastianism has the parallel with Islam in that it was born on what was seen as the outskirts of civilisation and rapidly expanded into a dominant force, while Christianity for a century or two was just another cult skulking around among the dominant civilisation of the day until one of the Roman emperors decided it could be useful.

Yes, Islam did have war's shortly after it's founding. But that's because the entire world was at war at the time. However, they did have Holy Wars later on in history (conquest of Constantinople by Mehmet II, Saladin's liberation of the Holy Land, etc). 

I also found that Andrastianism had strong ties and similarities to Islam moreso than Christianity. They always refer to their god as "The Maker" and in a singular fashion. Whereas Christianity has the trinity and refers to the pluralism of God alot. You could also say that Andraste was a Muhmmad-like figure btw.

Overall though, I agree with you.

[TheBlackBaron]

Not wanting to derail this even further than it already is, but Andraste always seemed to me to be more like Jesus and Joan of Arc fused into one person.

[_Ermehtar_]

errant_knight wrote...

Siradix wrote...

Well then, I think the answer is kinda obvious. The child is to grow up, not knowing about what Flemeth did in the past. That way Morrigan is able to perform the ritual to place her soul in her granddaughter's body. Making her, I'm guessing, a demigod.

Why would Morrigan want to do that? It both destroys the soul of the old god and make Flemeth more powerful.

Morrgian claims that you can kill Flemeths body. but not her soul. Perhaps she wants to use the child to destroy Flemeth once and for all. If Flemeth sees the power of the child, and tries to posess it, she will die.

But that is unlikely since Morrigan claims it was Flemeths plan to begin with. 

[errant_knight]

SusanStoHelit wrote...

No, Christianity grew and became accepted socially and politically when a Roman Emperor, Constantine, converted to Christianity and made it the official state religion. Scholars are still arguing about whether he did so for personal/spiritual reasons or political ones - or both. I'm not saying Christianity didn't offer all those other things to believers, but you're offering a personal viewpoint not an accepted academic or historical perspective.

That, however, is also beside the point. None of this is about Flemeth and Morrigan - and their plans. Let's stick to the topic, hmmm?

Heh, stop moderating my thread, Susan. I already told them that I didn't mind if they delved into the nature of the Chantry. That being said, it probably is time to move back toward the topic, perhaps by segueing to Morrigan's ideas on the chantry as compared to the chantry's beliefs about apostates. I see some validity to bath sides of the argument, myself.

_Ermehtar_ wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

Siradix wrote...

Well then, I think the answer is kinda obvious. The child is to grow up, not knowing about what Flemeth did in the past. That way Morrigan is able to perform the ritual to place her soul in her granddaughter's body. Making her, I'm guessing, a demigod.

Why would Morrigan want to do that? It both destroys the soul of the old god and make Flemeth more powerful.

Morrgian claims that you can kill Flemeths body. but not her soul. Perhaps she wants to use the child to destroy Flemeth once and for all. If Flemeth sees the power of the child, and tries to posess it, she will die.

But that is unlikely since Morrigan claims it was Flemeths plan to begin with. 

The possession ritual that Flemeth (apparently) planned would have destroyed Morrigan (apprently , so if Flemeth  or Morrigan tried to possess the child that way, the soul of the old god would likewise be destroyed. Morrigan was able to preserve the old god's soul by making use of the nature of the death of an archdemon, which would be something that she would be unable to recreate. Unless she made it into an archdemon, of course, and she wanted the sould untainted (apparently...

Modifié par errant_knight, 11 février 2010 - 01:52 .

[Demx]

Something that is socially accepted and something that is popular are two different things Susan. Even if Constantine didn't accept Christianity, the majority of Rome's population was already on the way of becoming Christians. Constantine simply sped up the process that was already in progress well before his time.

I do agree we need to stop this before it gets out of hand. Morrigan to me seem to believe that Flemeth is dead for now, and Morrigan was going to reap the benefits. Whatever the original plan was Morrigan seemed to believe that she would get a cut of the profit, that is until after she read the grimoire.

Modifié par Siradix, 11 février 2010 - 01:51 .

[Sarielle]

Forgive me for not quoting directly...I got lazy.

----
"Flemeth just talks so cryptically that you can never get a feel for what she is getting at and her whole ability to seemingly see into the future makes her seem quite powerful. I would wager that even if you killed her in your game, she definitely has a role to play in future DA games, so long as Morrigan is still around."
----

While not -strictly- on topic, when Flemeth says things like "I believe...do I? It seems I do," it has to do with the demon co-inhabiting her body, imo. They're symbiotes....but not wholly fused, I think. So you see a bit of both "personalities," as it were, peeking through.

I'm also not entirely sure Flemeth is the definite bad guy. If you do become "friends" with Morrigan, she even says something about "not always being worthy of it, but still treasuring it" or something to that effect. I always wondered what, precisely, she meant by that. Does she know she's screwing you over by the Dark Ritual somehow (in the sense of, you're maybe not ending the Blight afterall, or somesuch)? Or is it simply because she knows she's using you for her goals?

Flemeth also mentions something about Morrigan finally finding someone to dance to her tune if you go to kill her. Which seems to suggest she's been aware all along that Morrigan had her own plan in place. Too, Flemeth suggests that Morrigan wasn't telling the whole truth about how Flemeth has lived so long. The "Do you?" (as in, do you know?) left a bad taste in my mouth. She might as well have said, "Do you reaaaaaaally?

----
"Flemeth tells the four Wardens to tell their leaders that "this blight is a greater threat than they realize". Why would she think the Wardens underestimate a blight? Certainly the non-Wardens did not realize the threat, but her audience during this conversation is exclusively Wardens. Wardens whose leaders know the dangers of blights. Is there something special or nefarious (other than her own plans) about this particular blight? Is it simply character motivation? Or perhaps Flemeth is being truthful, and the real threat which the Wardens do not realize is Flemeth's own plan for the blight - that ending the blight via a dark ritual results in a much greater threat than the current blight itself.
----


Yeah, I have a sneaking suspicion that Flemeth is actually the more truthful of the two (between her and Morrigan). She may still reveal things selectively (after all, she could have elaborated), but I think she DOES tell the truth when she speaks.

And someone correct me if I'm wrong, but do we actually know for certain that it is indeed a demon that fused with Flemeth? Wynn's already proven that a union with a benevolent spirit is possible; and the Lady of the Forest that fusing with a spirit of nature is possible. I know the stories that both Morrigan and Leliana tell say it's a demon; but Flemeth warning the Templars before killing them always sat oddly with me. And keep in mind; it was Morrigan that actually did the luring.


Anyhow. I rambled a bit.


-edited because I called Morrigan Flemeth once there >.>; -

Modifié par Sarielle, 11 février 2010 - 02:13 .

[errant_knight]

Sarielle wrote...

Forgive me for not quoting directly...I got lazy.

----
"Flemeth just talks so cryptically that you can never get a feel for what she is getting at and her whole ability to seemingly see into the future makes her seem quite powerful. I would wager that even if you killed her in your game, she definitely has a role to play in future DA games, so long as Morrigan is still around."
----

While not -strictly- on topic, when Flemeth says things like "I believe...do I? It seems I do," it has to do with the demon co-inhabiting her body, imo. They're symbiotes....but not wholly fused, I think. So you see a bit of both "personalities," as it were, peeking through.

I'm also not entirely sure Flemeth is the definite bad guy. If you do become "friends" with Morrigan, she even says something about "not always being worthy of it, but still treasuring it" or something to that effect. I always wondered what, precisely, she meant by that. Does she know she's screwing you over by the Dark Ritual somehow (in the sense of, you're maybe not ending the Blight afterall, or somesuch)? Or is it simply because she knows she's using you for her goals?

Flemeth also mentions something about Morrigan finally finding someone to dance to her tune if you go to kill her. Which seems to suggest she's been aware all along that Morrigan had her own plan in place. Too, Flemeth suggests that Morrigan wasn't telling the whole truth about how Flemeth has lived so long. The "Do you?" (as in, do you know?) left a bad taste in my mouth. She might as well have said, "Do you reaaaaaaally?

----
"Flemeth tells the four Wardens to tell their leaders that "this blight is a greater threat than they realize". Why would she think the Wardens underestimate a blight? Certainly the non-Wardens did not realize the threat, but her audience during this conversation is exclusively Wardens. Wardens whose leaders know the dangers of blights. Is there something special or nefarious (other than her own plans) about this particular blight? Is it simply character motivation? Or perhaps Flemeth is being truthful, and the real threat which the Wardens do not realize is Flemeth's own plan for the blight - that ending the blight via a dark ritual results in a much greater threat than the current blight itself.
----


Yeah, I have a sneaking suspicion that Flemeth is actually the more truthful of the two (between her and Morrigan). She may still reveal things selectively (after all, she could have elaborated), but I think she DOES tell the truth when she speaks.

And someone correct me if I'm wrong, but do we actually know for certain that it is indeed a demon that fused with Flemeth? Wynn's already proven that a union with a benevolent spirit is possible; and the Lady of the Forest that fusing with a spirit of nature is possible. I know the stories that both Morrigan and Leliana tell say it's a demon; but Flemeth warning the Templars before killing them always sat oddly with me. And keep in mind; it was Morrigan that actually did the luring.


Anyhow. I rambled a bit.


-edited because I called Morrigan Flemeth once there >.>; -

I have to say, all these things concern me too, even after finding the robe of possession. Even if Morrigan is telling the truth as she belives it to be, it might not be entirely correct. I find the decision of whether to kill Flemeth to be the most difficult one of the game, and I waffle a lot. The playthroughs where I don't kill her are about even with the ones where I do.

[Sarielle]

Oh, something else that bothers me. Morrigan's story about how Flemeth told her of taking "Wilder men" to her bed, and that Morrigan would be expected to do the same one day. Why? What purpose did that serve, if she needed a fresh Grey Warden to get her Old God baby?

[errant_knight]

Sarielle wrote...

Oh, something else that bothers me. Morrigan's story about how Flemeth told her of taking "Wilder men" to her bed, and that Morrigan would be expected to do the same one day. Why? What purpose did that serve, if she needed a fresh Grey Warden to get her Old God baby?

Ha! Good catch! The main thing isn't the god baby, which I think has an entirely different purpose, it's that Flemeth expects Morrigan to be alive and using men to get power and/or create a new body for herself! I mean, Flemeth could be entirely disingenuous there, and be talking about Morrigan's body doing these things while inhabited by Flemeth, but why bother saying anything at all, if that was the case? I remember noting that line at the time and thinking it was significant, but I forgot all about it!

I wonder if perhaps it isn't Flemeth that was planning to move into Morrigan's body, but the demon/spirit?

Modifié par errant_knight, 11 février 2010 - 02:28 .

[Demx]

errant_knight wrote...

Sarielle wrote...

Oh, something else that bothers me. Morrigan's story about how Flemeth told her of taking "Wilder men" to her bed, and that Morrigan would be expected to do the same one day. Why? What purpose did that serve, if she needed a fresh Grey Warden to get her Old God baby?

Ha! Good catch! The main thing isn't the god baby, which I think has an entirely different purpose, it's that Flemeth expects Morrigan to be alive and using men to get power and/or create a new body for herself! I mean, Flemeth could be entirely disingenuous there, and be talking about Morrigan's body doing these things while inhabited by Flemeth, but why bother saying anything at all, if that was the case? I remember noting that line at the time and thinking it was significant, but I forgot all about it!

I wonder if perhaps it isn't Flemeth that was planning to move into Morrigan's body, but the demon/spirit?

She's lived with that demon for a very long time. Who's to say that over time that their thoughts have not become one and the same. Or that the demon really believes that she is Flemeth.

[SusanStoHelit]

I had assumed, possibly entirely incorrectly, that they were using these men to gain power by means of sex magic - using them until they were spent.

[Demx]

SusanStoHelit wrote...

I had assumed, possibly entirely incorrectly, that they were using these men to gain power by means of sex magic - using them until they were spent.

Sex magic? Do you mean something similar to the ritual Morrigan performed?

[SusanStoHelit]

errant_knight wrote...

Heh, stop moderating my thread, Susan.

Oops, my bad. Takes off board moderator's hat and puts it back on shelf. :innocent:

Modifié par SusanStoHelit, 11 février 2010 - 02:48 .

[errant_knight]

SusanStoHelit wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

Heh, stop moderating my thread, Susan.

Oops, my bad. Takes of board moderator's hat and puts it back on shelf. :innocent:

Bwahaha! Don't push it too far out of the way. If civility ever breaks down when I'm not around, I'd welcome you putting it back on.

[SusanStoHelit]

Siradix wrote...

Sex magic? Do you mean something similar to the ritual Morrigan performed?

No. That's not sex magic, that's a ritual, probably using blood magic, though from what God (David Gaider) has said it would've been nice to see it as it was meant to be *sigh*.

I meant that I assumed that it was simple sex magic.

There are real world stories and legends all around the globe of the use of sex as a means to gain power. The exact 'mechanics' if you'll pardon the expression, vary culturally. But the act of sex, and sometimes the 'ingredients' as it were (semen, etc) can generate power - physical power, spiritual power, or magical power. You can drain the magic or life from someone by means of sex. You can drain enough life that the victim becomes old - or dies. [Edit: it's often used to prolong life - or youth and beauty.]

Of course, sex can be used to generate power in a positive way - where both participants gain power from the act. Tantric sex in Hinduism often does this, modern paganism also does. But since that doesn't seem to be what Flemeth/Morrigan were doing I thought of the more negative uses of sex magic.

Modifié par SusanStoHelit, 11 février 2010 - 02:48 .

[Sarielle]

Siradix wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

Sarielle wrote...

Oh, something else that bothers me. Morrigan's story about how Flemeth told her of taking "Wilder men" to her bed, and that Morrigan would be expected to do the same one day. Why? What purpose did that serve, if she needed a fresh Grey Warden to get her Old God baby?

Ha! Good catch! The main thing isn't the god baby, which I think has an entirely different purpose, it's that Flemeth expects Morrigan to be alive and using men to get power and/or create a new body for herself! I mean, Flemeth could be entirely disingenuous there, and be talking about Morrigan's body doing these things while inhabited by Flemeth, but why bother saying anything at all, if that was the case? I remember noting that line at the time and thinking it was significant, but I forgot all about it!

I wonder if perhaps it isn't Flemeth that was planning to move into Morrigan's body, but the demon/spirit?

She's lived with that demon for a very long time. Who's to say that over time that their thoughts have not become one and the same. Or that the demon really believes that she is Flemeth.

True, but I still stand by her "I believe...do I? It seems I do" was a hiccup on the merge, so to speak. I think it also accounts for her bizarre humor.

SusanStoHelit wrote...

I had assumed, possibly entirely incorrectly, that they were using these men to gain power by means of sex magic - using them until they were spent.

I immediately was reminded of the "Blood Sugar Sex Magik" album by Red Hot Chili Peppers.

But I suppose that's an entirely reasonable assumption. If Morrigan is expected to do it as well, it can't be strictly for pleasure.

[Demx]

If the daughters were the ones performing sex magic, how would the life force be transferred to Flemet?

Modifié par Siradix, 11 février 2010 - 02:54 .

[SusanStoHelit]

Well, we're told Morrigan was expected to do it as soon as she was 'of age'. And since the game places her around 30 years old ... well, she's done it. And probably done it a lot. An experience girl our Morrigan.

[SusanStoHelit]

Siradix wrote...

If the daughters were the ones performing sex magic, how would the life force be transferred to Flemet?

It wouldn't. The daughter would be the one who gained it. But - when Flemeth eventually takes the daughter's body, it'll be more powerful. And we're told it's easier to gain control of a 'powerful' host. This is also borne out in other tales and legends - it's a relatively common theme.

[Demx]

SusanStoHelit wrote...

Siradix wrote...

If the daughters were the ones performing sex magic, how would the life force be transferred to Flemet?

It wouldn't. The daughter would be the one who gained it. But - when Flemeth eventually takes the daughter's body, it'll be more powerful. And we're told it's easier to gain control of a 'powerful' host. This is also borne out in other tales and legends - it's a relatively common theme.

I'm assuming that the dominate soul of the two is the one who gets to keep the body then. Which could explain the Robe of Possession.

Modifié par Siradix, 11 février 2010 - 03:03 .

[errant_knight]

Siradix wrote...

SusanStoHelit wrote...

Siradix wrote...

If the daughters were the ones performing sex magic, how would the life force be transferred to Flemet?

It wouldn't. The daughter would be the one who gained it. But - when Flemeth eventually takes the daughter's body, it'll be more powerful. And we're told it's easier to gain control of a 'powerful' host. This is also borne out in other tales and legends - it's a relatively common theme.

I'm assuming that the dominate soul of the two is the one who gets to keep the body then. Which could explain the Robe of Possession.

We don't know that any of that is true, only that it's what Morrigan professes to bleieve.

[errant_knight]

Siradix wrote...

SusanStoHelit wrote...

Siradix wrote...

If the daughters were the ones performing sex magic, how would the life force be transferred to Flemet?

It wouldn't. The daughter would be the one who gained it. But - when Flemeth eventually takes the daughter's body, it'll be more powerful. And we're told it's easier to gain control of a 'powerful' host. This is also borne out in other tales and legends - it's a relatively common theme.

I'm assuming that the dominate soul of the two is the one who gets to keep the body then. Which could explain the Robe of Possession.

We don't know that any of that is true, only that it's what Morrigan professes to believe.

[Demx]

errant_knight wrote...

Siradix wrote...

SusanStoHelit wrote...

Siradix wrote...

If the daughters were the ones performing sex magic, how would the life force be transferred to Flemet?

It wouldn't. The daughter would be the one who gained it. But - when Flemeth eventually takes the daughter's body, it'll be more powerful. And we're told it's easier to gain control of a 'powerful' host. This is also borne out in other tales and legends - it's a relatively common theme.

I'm assuming that the dominate soul of the two is the one who gets to keep the body then. Which could explain the Robe of Possession.

We don't know that any of that is true, only that it's what Morrigan professes to bleieve.

Yes, but like many others in this thread it is just another plausible theory. We don't have enough evidence to connect anything at the moment, so it is all hearsay.