196 réponses à ce sujet

[Sarielle]

errant_knight wrote...

Siradix wrote...

SusanStoHelit wrote...

Siradix wrote...

If the daughters were the ones performing sex magic, how would the life force be transferred to Flemet?

It wouldn't. The daughter would be the one who gained it. But - when Flemeth eventually takes the daughter's body, it'll be more powerful. And we're told it's easier to gain control of a 'powerful' host. This is also borne out in other tales and legends - it's a relatively common theme.

I'm assuming that the dominate soul of the two is the one who gets to keep the body then. Which could explain the Robe of Possession.

We don't know that any of that is true, only that it's what Morrigan professes to believe.

I find it hard to believe that Morrigan didn' tknow about the robes. I mean...only so many places to put things in that little hut.

[draxynnus]

SusanStoHelit wrote...

No, Christianity grew and became accepted socially and politically when a Roman Emperor, Constantine, converted to Christianity and made it the official state religion. Scholars are still arguing about whether he did so for personal/spiritual reasons or political ones - or both. I'm not saying Christianity didn't offer all those other things to believers, but you're offering a personal viewpoint not an accepted academic or historical perspective.

Pretty much this. I should also point out that when I used the word "cult", I meant it in the original meaning of 'a religion with a fairly small following and/or an offshoot of a larger religion', not with any of the connotations of fanaticism or dark practises that the term is often associated with.

Still, the specifics aren't really important to my main point: Christianity spent its first century or so quietly building up support before relatively peacefully taking over the Roman Empire from within. Islam spent its first century or so conquering Persia, North Africa and Spain and pushing the Byzantine Empire back to Asia Minor. Apart from Andraste's mode of death, Andrastianism's beginnings seem more like the latter to me than the former.

Ibby1kanobi wrote...

You could also say that Andraste was a Muhmmad-like figure btw.

Indeed, but the main similarities with Jesus is that Andraste was betrayed by a trusted individual and executed by the superpower of the time - and of course there's the Urn-Grail analogy. As far as I know, the story of Muhammad lacks these elements.

The Black Baron makes a very good point, in fact.

DarkCamel wrote...

Fascinating discussions.

Another possible foreshadowing:
Flemeth tells the four Wardens to tell their leaders that "this blight is a greater threat than they realize". Why would she think the Wardens underestimate a blight? Certainly the non-Wardens did not realize the threat, but her audience during this conversation is exclusively Wardens. Wardens whose leaders know the dangers of blights. Is there something special or nefarious (other than her own plans) about this particular blight? Is it simply character motivation? Or perhaps Flemeth is being truthful, and the real threat which the Wardens do not realize is Flemeth's own plan for the blight - that ending the blight via a dark ritual results in a much greater threat than the current blight itself.

Well, we've also got the Architect and what he's up to (which is why we have an expansion). This might be the true significance - this time, the threat ISN'T going to end with the destruction of the Archdemon.

errant_knight wrote...

I wonder if perhaps it isn't Flemeth that was planning to move into Morrigan's body, but the demon/spirit?

This is certainly a thought that has crossed my mind - the original Flemeth may be long dead but it's the demon that's hopping from body to body. Still, I would be very curious as to where the demon came from, since according to Morrigan's story (which is probably closer to the truth to the general version) the demon doesn't come until "later". Since at that stage she'd already achieved her objective...why?

[Demx]

Sarielle wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

Siradix wrote...

SusanStoHelit wrote...

Siradix wrote...

If the daughters were the ones performing sex magic, how would the life force be transferred to Flemet?

It wouldn't. The daughter would be the one who gained it. But - when Flemeth eventually takes the daughter's body, it'll be more powerful. And we're told it's easier to gain control of a 'powerful' host. This is also borne out in other tales and legends - it's a relatively common theme.

I'm assuming that the dominate soul of the two is the one who gets to keep the body then. Which could explain the Robe of Possession.

We don't know that any of that is true, only that it's what Morrigan professes to believe.

I find it hard to believe that Morrigan didn't know about the robes. I mean...only so many places to put things in that little hut.

The chest was locked, and Flemeth had the key. Then there is also the possibility she enchanted the robes after Morrigan left.  Besides, do you really think Morrigan would instantaneously know specs of the clothes given to her by her mother. Flemeth also didn't plan on Morrigan finding a grimoire, and become suspicious of her mother's activities.

[Sarielle]

@Siradix You make a good point.

[Demx]

I was thinking since the description of the Robes of Possession says:



The original intent of these robes is clear a "welcome home" present from Flemeth, designed to sap Morrigan's will and ease the ancient sorceress' possession of her daughter.



Could Morrigan create the same type of clothes with the help of the Grimoire, to control the God Child?

[Sarielle]

Siradix wrote...

I was thinking since the description of the Robes of Possession says:

The original intent of these robes is clear a "welcome home" present from Flemeth, designed to sap Morrigan's will and ease the ancient sorceress' possession of her daughter.

Could Morrigan create the same type of clothes with the help of the Grimoire, to control the God Child?

I am ashamed to say I did not read the description of the Robes of Possession. You'd think I would have, as interested as I am in that story arc. Thanks!

[SusanStoHelit]

Siradix wrote...

I'm assuming that the dominate soul of the two is the one who gets to keep the body then. Which could explain the Robe of Possession.

I do not, and cannot, know how Bioware and its writing team will or would handle this.

That said, in general, the most powerful of the two would end up with the body (if it's a situation of two souls being unable to co-inhabit it). Nevertheless, this isn't always true, because of other factors. The two factors that most commonly lead to a less powerful entity in possession of the body are:

* the less powerful entity takes the more powerful one by surprise - as in physical combat, the person who springs a trap or surprises an unsuspecting victim has an advantage
* the more powerful entity is young and inexperienced - in this case, they may be unaware that such a thing is possible, or simply unaware that they are at risk

It should also be noted for the purposes of this discussion that Flemeth also has the advantage of a blood relationship - frequently stealing the body of another is made much easier in the presence of a bond between the two. Blood is one such bond. Sex is another, of course, and victims are sometimes surprised and 'taken' during such an act. Other methods exist - rituals, objects of power (like the robes, actually, so Flemeth really is covering several bases), training of the victim (Flemeth covered that one too) so that their body and mind are 'prepared', to name the ones I can think of offhand.

If it's a demon in charge of 'Flemeth', then that demon may not have the blood link. That's not something I've encountered before, lol. Because although the two bodies would be linked, the demon and Morrigan would not be. Although, I suppose, the preparation and training could have done that.

To be honest, my gut feeling is that neither Morrigan nor Flemeth lied to us - concealed things, yes, but not lied. There is sufficient wriggle-room in what we've been told that it's easily possible to envisage multiple options. Why bother lying (and potentially being caught at it) if you can avoid, evade, and be mysterious?

There is insufficient data on which to found any hypothesis. All of what we're discussing is simply unfounded musings. It's fun, though.

[Sarielle]

While I'm thinking of it (it's late, about to crash) that raven in the Landsmeet...I always assumed it had something to do with the Antivan Crows. o_O

[draxynnus]

Susan: We don't know if there's a blood link between Morrigan and Flemeth. In fact, even Morrigan seems to think it was more likely that she was adopted (possibly against the will of her biological parents) rather than being the child of Flemeth's womb.

[metatheurgist]

I'm going to toss some conspiracy fuel on this thread.

No one's mentioned the conversation where Morrigan says that she remembers seeing Flemeth young and beautiful with dark hair. Wonder what that's all about?

Also, in all the firelight sequences I remember Morrigan's eyes have a green/gold cast to them. When she approaches the PC for the ritual, her eyes are a uniform brown by the fireplace. Maybe it's just a trick of the light or is this indicative of something else? Eyes being the window to the soul and all.

Modifié par metatheurgist, 11 février 2010 - 11:08 .

[naledgeborn]

So we know that Morrigan doesn't plan on possessing the child because capturing Urthemiel's and destroying it would be pointless. We know that she can possibly feel sorrow and regret (because of love or her actions we don't know). We know that it was Flemeth's plan. The only difference that is set in stone is that Flemeth won't get to reap the benefits via Morrigan's shell.

[errant_knight]

metatheurgist wrote...

I'm going to toss some conspiracy fuel on this thread.

No one's mentioned the conversation where Morrigan says that she remembers seeing Flemeth young and beautiful with dark hair. Wonder what that's all about?

Also, in all the firelight sequences I remember Morrigan's eyes have a green/gold cast to them. When she approaches the PC for the ritual, her eyes are a uniform brown by the fireplace. Maybe it's just a trick of the light or is this indicative of something else? Eyes being the window to the soul and all.

I always thought she had eyes like a wolf. I figured it was reflective of her shapechanger abilities.

I remember Morrigan saying that Flemeth had once been young and beautiful, but not that she'd seen it. That would be a huge game changer, because it would mean that Morrigan is thousands of years old, too. I've suspected that, but didn't think there was any proof. Do you remember the exact words and where this was?

[TheLion36]

draxynnus wrote...
Susan: We don't know if there's a blood link between Morrigan and Flemeth. In fact, even Morrigan seems to think it was more likely that she was adopted (possibly against the will of her biological parents) rather than being the child of Flemeth's womb.

I've always had the feeling that Morrigan is the biological child of Flemeth. I don't have any facts to back this up but both Morrigan and Flemeth have very unusual eyes that are a little alike. Also the conversation between Alistair and Morrigan about her nose being like her mothers and Morrigan mentioning her mother had black hair like hers. (granted the latter covers any black haired parent in the game).

metatheurgist wrote...
No one's mentioned the conversation where Morrigan says that she remembers seeing Flemeth young and beautiful with dark hair. Wonder what that's all about?

Morrigan mentions she remembers Flemeth being younger once and having black hair just like hers, she never mentions she was beautiful and considering Flemeth body hops then this would be a logical result, if Flemeth just took over a daughters body a few years before giving birth to Morrigan (or using some magical ritual to spawn a baby from her own blood or stealing her). Then Morrigan would remember Flemeth being younger...

I loaded a few saves from the first meet of Morrigan and the ritual proposal and from what I can gather she has solid yellow eyes on both (though they are a little darker on the ritual proposal but the light there is redish which would explain that). Her eyes in general are playful however during some dialogs she appears to have green-glows in her yellow eyes and at other points they are not there, this might cause the confusion... I also paid attention to the hair once again and couldn't see much difference there either, you can see brownish streaks through her hair but she had those during the first meet conversation as well. If her hair is indeed lighter there I do not see it.

errant_knight wrote...
I always thought she had eyes like a wolf. I figured it was reflective of her shapechanger abilities.

Nice description of her eyes, never thought to describe them like that but it is fitting!

I hope she isn't possessed by Flemeth already, if she is then the original Morrigan might be lost forever, unless Flemeths body-swap trick is just a form of demonic possession then it might be reversable...

I'm still wondering if the child from Morrigan could be some way to end the blights forever. In some future part of the game we might have 2 solutions to end the blight, one unknown solution which might cost the lives of many and another by using the old god child which might save many lives... Someone on the forums stated that many of the righteous choices in DAO actually end up being the bad choices (Harrowmonth for example is the most righteous choice for king but actually ends up being bad for the dwarves whereas Bhelen appears as a dictator and he ends up being very good for the dwarves), so it would be in line with that that the child ends up being good... Whether or not Flemeth intended to use the child for good is of course a different story.

EDIT: I also just looked up Morgan Le Faye on wikipedia because Morrigan's name is based on her and someone mentioned her bearing a son that wrecked havoc on the world. According to WikiPedia the son she gave birth to was Ywain, who was one of the knights of the round table, whereas Mordred was the evil one who was actually the son of Morgause (apparantly also known as Anna in earlier works) who is a sibbling of Morgan Le Faye... However I do know there's lots of variation in Arthurian legends so the Wikipedia entries might differ.

Modifié par TheLion36, 11 février 2010 - 05:41 .

[Addai]

Addai67 wrote...

I just came across a dialogue with Morrigan I hadn't noticed before. You can talk to her about the ritual if she's in your party for the final battle. I am wondering how people interpret this, in particular when she says (I hope I'm remembering this right):

PC: Got what you came for, did you?
M: Yes, I did. And let me remind you that you get something out of this, too. If you want to spend the rest of your life resentful for it, that is your choice, but it lasts only so long as the child within me.

Say what?? What lasts only so long as the child within her? Your thoughts on what she means here? BTW if you just thank her nicely, she is very flustered (guilty, perhaps, hmmmm?) and says "that means a great deal to me... you have no idea..."

I don't think anyone responded to this, but wanted to bring it up again.  It makes me wonder if Morrigan is suggesting there is a (blood magic) link between the life of the child and the Wardens.  Or am I reading too much into what she says?

[Curlain]

TheLion36 wrote...


EDIT: I also just looked up Morgan Le Faye on wikipedia because Morrigan's name is based on her and someone mentioned her bearing a son that wrecked havoc on the world. According to WikiPedia the son she gave birth to was Ywain, who was one of the knights of the round table, whereas Mordred was the evil one who was actually the son of Morgause (apparantly also known as Anna in earlier works) who is a sibbling of Morgan Le Faye... However I do know there's lots of variation in Arthurian legends so the Wikipedia entries might differ.

LIke you say there are allot of variations so it really depends which Arthurian tradition you are looking at, in Thomas Mallory's Le Morte d'Arthur (for most the definitive version of the Arthurian romance) Modred's mother is Morgause, but in others and some early Arthurian cycles he is Morgan/Morganna's son, and it also depends from tradition to tradition if he is even Arthur's son as well as his nephew.  Geoffrey of Monmouth's work also interestingly had Guinevere betray Arthur with Mordred, not Lancelot (who didn't exist at that point) as in later myths.  Of course the myths that use the incest tradition for Modred's origins it becomes the fatal mistake/sin that will lead to the end of the golden age Arthur brings (later joined with the betrayal of Lancelot).  Could this have some bearing on Morrigan and the old god child, possibly, there are certainly Arthurian overtones in the Dark Ritual.

Also though, I think Morrigan is more inspired by the Irish mythological figure of the same name (and variants of that name) that was possibly once a Celtic deity.

[maxernst]

TheLion36 wrote...

EDIT: I also just looked up Morgan Le Faye on wikipedia because Morrigan's name is based on her and someone mentioned her bearing a son that wrecked havoc on the world. According to WikiPedia the son she gave birth to was Ywain, who was one of the knights of the round table, whereas Mordred was the evil one who was actually the son of Morgause (apparantly also known as Anna in earlier works) who is a sibbling of Morgan Le Faye... However I do know there's lots of variation in Arthurian legends so the Wikipedia entries might differ.

Morgause is the mother of Mordred in Mallory's La Morte d'Arthur, where Morgan plays a smaller role.  However, in some modern treatments, Morgan is merged with other characters including Morgause and sometimes even Nyneve/Nimue (the enchantress of Merlin), who is in turn sometimes combined with the Lady of the Lake who gives Excalibur to Arthur.

[Curlain]

The Lady of the Lake role is shared between the persons of Viviane, Nimue and Morgan/Morganna at different points and in different traditions. And she is can be depicted as variously benign to dangerous and malevolent depending on the story and tradition.

[errant_knight]

On reading the discussion that occurred today (very interesting details and analysis of the artherian legends, bu the way!), and realized that part of my post last night was nonsensical due to lack of sleep. I entirely forgot that Flemeth had many bodies, so while Morrigan remembering Flemeth with dark hair might indicate that she is older than she appears, if Flemeth's bodies age more slowly than normal humans would, it wouldn't indicate the great age that I drew the conclusion it might. My bad.

[TheLion36]

First of all thanks for all the comments on the Arthurian legend!  They are very enlightening! 

Addai67 wrote...
I don't think anyone responded to this, but wanted to bring it up again.  It makes me wonder if Morrigan is suggesting there is a (blood magic) link between the life of the child and the Wardens.  Or am I reading too much into what she says?

I read that one yesterday but was about to take an exam so didn't get a chance to reply to it... I'm not sure what she means, I did load my saves but she never gave that reply to my character (might not get it when romancing her).
It could be however that there is a link between you and the child and that the child might expand your lifespan (beyond the 30 yrs), perhaps even live as long as the child... On the other hand the child carries the taint just like you do and you where infected not long before conceiving the child, therefor if the same rules apply to the child as to you then the child might only have a life expectancy of 30 yrs as well... Pure speculation however... It also very likely that its just a meaningless sentence that didn't really come out well...

The thing that always gets me about Morrigan at the ritual conversation is that if you talk with her long enough (and especially if you romance her) she states at some point that its her destiny, almost as if her life depends on it and that she has no choice whatsoever in the matter (hence destiny hehe). Just going after something you want I usually wouldn't associate with destiny which is one of the reasons I expect there to be something important behind it, more than just Morrigan looking to increase her power... Something I've also wondered about is that perhaps the child can cleanse the Black City, it carries the taint and the soul of the old god so perhaps it is immune to the taint and therefore might be able to cleanse it, which could boil down to my earlier theory of the child being the answer to ending the Blights...

[Vuokseniska]

answer is simple, she is going to sell it to the tevinter mages

[draxynnus]

TheLion36 wrote...
I read that one yesterday but was about to take an exam so didn't get a chance to reply to it... I'm not sure what she means, I did load my saves but she never gave that reply to my character (might not get it when romancing her).
It could be however that there is a link between you and the child and that the child might expand your lifespan (beyond the 30 yrs), perhaps even live as long as the child... On the other hand the child carries the taint just like you do and you where infected not long before conceiving the child, therefor if the same rules apply to the child as to you then the child might only have a life expectancy of 30 yrs as well... Pure speculation however... It also very likely that its just a meaningless sentence that didn't really come out well...

The thing that always gets me about Morrigan at the ritual conversation is that if you talk with her long enough (and especially if you romance her) she states at some point that its her destiny, almost as if her life depends on it and that she has no choice whatsoever in the matter (hence destiny hehe). Just going after something you want I usually wouldn't associate with destiny which is one of the reasons I expect there to be something important behind it, more than just Morrigan looking to increase her power... Something I've also wondered about is that perhaps the child can cleanse the Black City, it carries the taint and the soul of the old god so perhaps it is immune to the taint and therefore might be able to cleanse it, which could boil down to my earlier theory of the child being the answer to ending the Blights...

From my memory of the discussion about the ritual, the whole point was that the soul of the Old God would be in an untainted body and thus cleansed.

It's also worth noting that while Grey Wardens have reduced fertility, they can still have children, and those children aren't automatically Grey Wardens - it seems that the taint isn't passed on.

[kazic284]

Something I wanted to correct is about the witch who makes a deal with Maric. We are never at any point told it is Flemmeth, nor do we know what the deal entails. Before the game came out there was a lot of speculation that Maric fathered Morrigan or something. Haven't heard that one recently, or even why Flemmeth (If she is indeed the witch in the book) would want a royal bastard. You wouldn't think she would be the type to have designs on the throne, and even if she did, no mage can inherit a throne, so Morrigan couldn't claim the throne anyway.

One thought I had was if the witch Maric met was Flemmeth, and she did ask him for a child in payment for her help, AND that child is Morrigan, well...it does make things interesting. That makes Morrigan's god-child royal in addition to whatever else it inherits. An individual with that kind of power with the claim to the throne might be able to create an empire, though again, not sure if Flemmeth would be into that kind of thing. But possessing such a child would certainly be a path to a certain type of power.

So in the short run it seems like she doesn't gain anything. If Flemmeth's as old as the tales claim though, she would be used to laying plans that may not come to fruition for decades or centuries.

This actually helps to make sense of why Morrigan may be in Orlais. If she is royal, she might be able to entrench herself there better. Again, a better starting point if you want an empre.

Just my two cents, hope it made sense.

Modifié par kazic284, 12 février 2010 - 12:14 .

[errant_knight]

Vuokseniska wrote...

answer is simple, she is going to sell it to the tevinter mages

I don't remember anything that would even remotely hint at this. Is there something that backs this up?

[kazic284]

Pretty sure he/she was joking Errant

Modifié par kazic284, 12 février 2010 - 12:30 .

[Doyle41]

Siradix wrote...

I was thinking since the description of the Robes of Possession says:

The original intent of these robes is clear a "welcome home" present from Flemeth, designed to sap Morrigan's will and ease the ancient sorceress' possession of her daughter.

Could Morrigan create the same type of clothes with the help of the Grimoire, to control the God Child?

Well, what if when you "kill" Flemeth, her essence enters the Grimoire as a vessel. As Morrigan reads the spell of possession, it releases Flemeth and she gains control of Morrigan's body.

Also, if Flemeth was having or stealing children, there is no guarantee that they would be mages. That would certainly encourage the sacrifice of these particular children if the had no magic.