196 réponses à ce sujet

[CrillanK]

Does it ever say what happens to the old body in this game once the transfer is done? What if Flemeth has already transferred to Morrigan and has retained control of her old body as well? That would be a pretty good trick.

[SusanStoHelit]

Curlain wrote...

Well the Old Gods aren't actually confirmed as real, we have an Archdemon yes, and we know that a number of people believe them to be the Old Gods of the Tenvinter Imperium but not everyone. One of Brother Genetivi's codex entries on the Archdemons does speculate on what Archdemons are, are they the Old Gods or are they high dragons sleeping deep down, corrupted and tainted by the darkspawn (possibly becoming thereby a focus of their hivemind). So the Old Gods (and Archdemons being Old Gods) is a matter of speculation in the world of Thedas itself, and therefore is certainly not an absolute fact, but is something for us to decide on as we play through.

Morrigan believes in them yes, but does that mean they are so? She is powerful but not all powerful or all knowing, and yes Archdemons are not like ordinary High Dragons, but is this due to them being Old Gods or due to the taint that transforming them (similar to it transforming female humans, elves, dwarves and quanri into Broodmothers) and/or the fact they are more ancient dragons hibernating deep underground (as Brother Genetivi's codex shows is one train of scholarly thought in Thedas)?

There are allot of possibilities, one being there are no Old Gods just as there might be no Maker. I like that personally, it's a matter of faith and your own interpretation of things in the world, rather then becoming established fact

Also if they are Old Gods, what is an Old God?  A actual 'godly' being, ancient mages who are like Flemeth (transforming into dragons) but more powerful, and earlier race of dragon-kind that was much more intelligent (like Tolkienesk and D&D dragons)?  Lots and lots of possiblities

I see where you're coming from and why you think so. As I said in my post, they may not be gods at all - although they are certainly powerful enough to be worshipped as such. Personally, though, I hate matters of faith. No faith for me, please - you can have my share. It's real - or it isn't. Proof please.

[Sarielle]

I'm going to have to not kill Flemeth (it's been the last thing I did before Landsmeet anyhow) and see if the raven still shows up. If it doesn't, then I think it should be pretty safe to say it is, indeed, Flemeth.

All this talk of Urthemiel (I wonder if the angelic naming conventions are a coincidence?) made me wonder. Since Urthemiel is the Old God of beauty...is it possible Flemeth was looking for a way to end her body-hopping cycle, and remain eternally beautiful?

Modifié par Sarielle, 12 février 2010 - 10:42 .

[DiatribeEQ]

I do think that some people are failing to remember that (and this is taking things at face value) Morrigan did fall in love with the Grey Warden. With that in mind, perhaps she was taking proactive steps to thwart Flemith's schemes once & for all. Besides, who's to say that her child has to be a female? The Witch-of-the-Wild Lore? Bioware will definately make DA:O-2 just as male-female ambiguous as the current one is in game. Remember, the ONLY reason why the cinematic(official & "This is War") show a male Grey Warden acting all heroic and whatnot, is that is a traditional societal male = action hero, stereotype. It's what people expect. But once we get in the actual game, we find out that it's completely different & that men & women are completely interchangeable in the role as Grey Warden. Also, many things did change (at least for Morrigan) when she ventured with the Grey Warden. Perhaps things are like Freud said: "Sometimes a cigar, is just a cigar." By that, I mean that sometimes, what we saw & heard is exactly what there is & nothing more than that.



Personally? What do I think? If we hadn't received the ring from Morrigan (thus having the empathic bond), I'd be more inclined to think that perhaps there might've been a bit more devious planning going on behind the scenes, but Morrigan might have her own plans, yes, but her feelings for the Grey Warden were clear and staying around him, she knew her feelings (love) for him would override her own (possible) ambitions. Thus, the ring would let her know where he was at all times, so she could avoid him & avoid letting matters of the heart dictate her future.



I dunno, we'll have to wait till DA:O2 to find out, now won't we?

[draxynnus]

Alandros wrote...

She must protect the PC love from what might/will happen

In this possibility something will happen or might very likely happen that will end up killing or doing worse to the PC if he comes. Maybe this old god child will only warm to Morrigan (for whatever reasons) and very likely not to the PC so Morrigan doesn't want to have the guilt of her love dying (she pretends to hide it but in regards to love she is more vulnerable than most people). There's also a possibility that she feels she will become Flemeth or is pretty sure Flemeth will indeed take her over and she doesn't want her love being in her mothers hands (knowing what she would do to him), I think this is less likely since she seemed quite certain in avoiding Flemeth and the character helped her in that regard before (or could have helped her that is) so keeping the PC with he would help her defend against Flemeth.

This is actually a good point. In most Morrigan romance playthroughs, she at least believes that the PCs slew Flemeth's physical form - but she has no real confidence that doing so actually did end Flemeth's potential threat to her. And if Flemeth does posess Morrigan, than she PC may prove to be high on Flemeth's kill-list.

Personally, I am leaning somewhat in favour of the "conflict between different entities" hypothesis - partially because the parallels between the Old Gods and the Maker and between the Forgotten Ones and Fen'Harel is such a close one that it's hard to believe it's coincidence - instead, it could be that what we're seeing is basically a three-way between the two groups of gods and Fen'Harel - the latter of which currently appears to be in the lead in the role of the Maker. (Or is he? The Maker has been silent for a long time, after all, and it seems once again to be the Old Gods to be taking an active role in the world, especially if it does turn out that the Old Gods were "corrupted" all along and they simply need the darkspawn to dig them out, not to convert them into Archdemons. It's possible that the Maker himself has actually been sealed away from the world in some fashion.)

Now, putting the Old Gods in the role of the Forgotten Ones doesn't actually necessarily mean they're evil - just the enemies of the elven pantheon. Although, as I've stated before, their support of the Tevinter Imperium - an empire forged on demonology and the sacrifice of slaves - isn't looking good, and even gods of beauty can be cruel.

[errant_knight]

draxynnus wrote...

Alandros wrote...

She must protect the PC love from what might/will happen

In this possibility something will happen or might very likely happen that will end up killing or doing worse to the PC if he comes. Maybe this old god child will only warm to Morrigan (for whatever reasons) and very likely not to the PC so Morrigan doesn't want to have the guilt of her love dying (she pretends to hide it but in regards to love she is more vulnerable than most people). There's also a possibility that she feels she will become Flemeth or is pretty sure Flemeth will indeed take her over and she doesn't want her love being in her mothers hands (knowing what she would do to him), I think this is less likely since she seemed quite certain in avoiding Flemeth and the character helped her in that regard before (or could have helped her that is) so keeping the PC with he would help her defend against Flemeth.

This is actually a good point. In most Morrigan romance playthroughs, she at least believes that the PCs slew Flemeth's physical form - but she has no real confidence that doing so actually did end Flemeth's potential threat to her. And if Flemeth does posess Morrigan, than she PC may prove to be high on Flemeth's kill-list.

Personally, I am leaning somewhat in favour of the "conflict between different entities" hypothesis - partially because the parallels between the Old Gods and the Maker and between the Forgotten Ones and Fen'Harel is such a close one that it's hard to believe it's coincidence - instead, it could be that what we're seeing is basically a three-way between the two groups of gods and Fen'Harel - the latter of which currently appears to be in the lead in the role of the Maker. (Or is he? The Maker has been silent for a long time, after all, and it seems once again to be the Old Gods to be taking an active role in the world, especially if it does turn out that the Old Gods were "corrupted" all along and they simply need the darkspawn to dig them out, not to convert them into Archdemons. It's possible that the Maker himself has actually been sealed away from the world in some fashion.)

Now, putting the Old Gods in the role of the Forgotten Ones doesn't actually necessarily mean they're evil - just the enemies of the elven pantheon. Although, as I've stated before, their support of the Tevinter Imperium - an empire forged on demonology and the sacrifice of slaves - isn't looking good, and even gods of beauty can be cruel.

Is there anything that says they supported the Imperium? I didn't get that impression, just that the Imperium found them impressive. I wasn't even sure they were still around at that point.

[Alandros]

Nothing explicitly says anything since even what is found in the game are beliefs passed down and most likely altered, but to get a possible idea of a possible interaction they may have been believed to had (lol not sure if I could get more ambiguous ehh):



http://old.dragonage...perium&mode=and

[Alandros]

SusanStoHelit wrote...

Rambling perhaps, and it's 'feud' not 'fued', lol. Nevertheless, there are some good ideas in there. Many of them have already been discussed in this thread, or others. That doesn't mean that it's not good that you've come up with them too, of course. :-)

I definitely don't claim anything unique  It just seems we are all attracted to puzzles apparently lol.

Yes, I've long come to the conclusion that the real "bad guys" in Thedas are the Chantry - not the individual priests as such, but the hierarchy and it's teachings. And, indeed, I believe (only time will tell if I'm correct, of course) that saving Urthemiel is a good thing - no matter what Morrigan intends. Because I do believe that there is a war going on here - and I don't mean on the surface of Thedas. A war between the Maker and the Old Gods, which is merely being reflected on the surface.

Agreed.

Furthermore, I believe that you are right when you suspect it isn't clear who is on the side of 'good' and who isn't. Will it turn out that the Maker is 'evil' or, at least, selfish, power-hungry, and corrupt? He is the cause of the darkspawn, after all; and I believe that he blackened the golden city. I don't believe that humanity's pride or whatever did that at all.

Agreed again.  In all honesty I would guess that both sides (or all sides) are corrupt and power-hungry, possibly certain parties going further than others though (like causing the darkspawn taint for example).

Of course, I could be wrong about that, we really just don't have some of the crucial pieces of evidence.

Yeah, definitely a lack of information... which leaves a lot of room for the imagination (which I'm sure is the point).

I'm hoping that Urthemiel, if we save him, will give us more information about what's REALLY happening. Or, at least, about his side of the story. All we've got so far is not even the Maker's side of the story, but rather the Chantry's version of it. And religious organisations are not notoriously good at being unbiased or at maintaining records impartially. They tend to dispose of those that they don't like - or rewrite them. As they did (dispose of) the records of the elves helping Andraste.

I hope as well, another perspective would be nice.  At least then we'd be going off two opposing biased perspectives.

[errant_knight]

Alandros wrote...

Nothing explicitly says anything since even what is found in the game are beliefs passed down and most likely altered, but to get a possible idea of a possible interaction they may have been believed to had (lol not sure if I could get more ambiguous ehh):

http://old.dragonage...perium&mode=and

Interesting link! Thanks!

[NinjaKingKiller]

Maybe Im being an idiot but Flemeth shapechanges into a Dragon right



Dragon has yellow eyes maybe there not Witches but Dragons. Lol that sounds stupid but maybe Dragons have the power of shapechanging and Morrigan twisted the story about the child possesing things. not much of a story behind this since my brain is on sleep damn my sleep habbits

Modifié par NinjaKingKiller, 13 février 2010 - 09:43 .

[TheLion36]

NinjaKingKiller wrote...
Skin Color is because of the fireplace

Yes that was exaclty the point I was trying to make!  The reddish glow causes her hair and eyes to have a slightly different colour than on the other pictures!

[Meliorist13]

**Posted by Sarielle**

"I'm going to have to not kill Flemeth (it's been the last thing I did before Landsmeet anyhow) and see if the raven still shows up. If it doesn't, then I think it should be pretty safe to say it is, indeed, Flemeth".





Funny....and I didn't read every single page of this thread (about half) but when I saw that raven, I thought it was The Crows, there is one watching where ever you go that they have a hand in something.

[draxynnus]

errant_knight wrote...

Is there anything that says they supported the Imperium? I didn't get that impression, just that the Imperium found them impressive. I wasn't even sure they were still around at that point.

It's mentioned, including one of David's developer posts, that the Old Gods supposedly interacted with the magisters in the Fade, teaching them to use magic. The Codex Entry on the Old Gods, in fact, talks about the first Archon-Magister being granted blood magic by Dumat in exchange for the raising of temples (David's post goes further and suggests that the Old Gods granted magic in exchange for the Magisters promising to someday use that magic to release them).

In short, it seems the Old Gods were ultimately responsible for the magisters having the power they did, and were in regular enough communication with the magisters that its likely they could have objected to the magister's activities, but they chose not to (and may, in fact, have been encouraging them, especially if the Old Gods knew that massive blood sacrifice would be needed to raise the energy to free them).

[errant_knight]

draxynnus wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

Is there anything that says they supported the Imperium? I didn't get that impression, just that the Imperium found them impressive. I wasn't even sure they were still around at that point.

It's mentioned, including one of David's developer posts, that the Old Gods supposedly interacted with the magisters in the Fade, teaching them to use magic. The Codex Entry on the Old Gods, in fact, talks about the first Archon-Magister being granted blood magic by Dumat in exchange for the raising of temples (David's post goes further and suggests that the Old Gods granted magic in exchange for the Magisters promising to someday use that magic to release them).

In short, it seems the Old Gods were ultimately responsible for the magisters having the power they did, and were in regular enough communication with the magisters that its likely they could have objected to the magister's activities, but they chose not to (and may, in fact, have been encouraging them, especially if the Old Gods knew that massive blood sacrifice would be needed to raise the energy to free them).

I'd seen the developer post in an earlier posted link, but not the codex entry... That pretty much makes them bad, doesn't it? I wonder if I should go over and say so on my other thread where it negates my whole line of thought? Maybe later.

[TheLion36]

That doesn't automatically make them all bad... The codex (only quickly browsed through it so correct me if I'm wrong) only mentions Dumat speaking to the magisters and teaching them blood magic. If the other dragons taught normal magic, then this doesn't have to be a bad thing (afterall magic is used in the joining ritual as well). In polytheism there are usually always evil and good gods (for example Osiris and Seth in Egyptian mythology), so it wouldn't suprise me if all 7 of them had different personalities.

Isn't it a bit ironic (and perhaps suspicious) that the Dragon of Silence is the one talking to the Magisters of Tevinter? That codex entry was written by a Chantry sister...

Modifié par TheLion36, 13 février 2010 - 06:41 .

[Curlain]

draxynnus wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

Is there anything that says they supported the Imperium? I didn't get that impression, just that the Imperium found them impressive. I wasn't even sure they were still around at that point.

It's mentioned, including one of David's developer posts, that the Old Gods supposedly interacted with the magisters in the Fade, teaching them to use magic. The Codex Entry on the Old Gods, in fact, talks about the first Archon-Magister being granted blood magic by Dumat in exchange for the raising of temples (David's post goes further and suggests that the Old Gods granted magic in exchange for the Magisters promising to someday use that magic to release them).

In short, it seems the Old Gods were ultimately responsible for the magisters having the power they did, and were in regular enough communication with the magisters that its likely they could have objected to the magister's activities, but they chose not to (and may, in fact, have been encouraging them, especially if the Old Gods knew that massive blood sacrifice would be needed to raise the energy to free them).

Yeah this was the main reason two of my Dalish elf Wardens could never go through with the Ritual, knowing about the information this codex imparts.  They could never get behind bring back an Old God who's worshippers destroyed their civilisation, took their (believed) immortality and enslaved them on mass.

Whether it's actually true or not is of course up for debate, in that did Dumat really contact the first Archon-Magister (as a history which would have passed through numerous generations, getting possibly amended as it did, reports) or did he/she (don't know if the first was a he or she) arrive at blood-magic independently but choose to use the figure of Dumat to explain his/her power and used the temples then created as a means of bolstering the Magisters power.  If their magic was seen not just as magic but god-given, it made them (the Magisters) anointed ones for the gods as well as powerful mages, and so subjects of the Empire might follow the mages and accept their rule believing them to be chosen by the gods.

If they did exist and impart this knowledge and remain in contact with the Magisters then yes, they certainly do not seem entirely benign (there's a part of me that hopes this is the case, because I love playing heroes who make that one mistake, commit that one sin, or have that one fatal flaw, and have to face up to the consequences of this decision or act later on, very tragic and epic ) though of course, this might only be one side of them.

Modifié par Curlain, 13 février 2010 - 06:52 .

[draxynnus]

Aye, these are all important considerations:



First, there's the question of whether the Magisters actually were telling the truth about having gained their power from the Old Gods, or whether they simply claimed to so that their followers/slaves believed that even if they could overthrow the Magisters, the Magisters had powerful backing that would wreak vengeance.



Second, there's the question of how much the Old Gods knew about what their gifts were being used. Being sealed undergound in the material world and interacting only through the Fade, they may not have known just how bad things were.



Third, the only Old God we specifically know was complicit is Dumat, and it's possible, as the Lion says, that others have different personalities - and while it's been pointed out multiple times that beauty can be vain and cruel, Urthemiel does appear at first glance to be the most benign among the Old Gods. Thus, it's possible that Urthemiel disapproved of the Imperium's excesses, but was outvoted.



Finally, the Old Gods could have very, very good reasons for wanting to be broken out, and being willing to have massive sacrifices made on their behalf to get them out. For instance, they may know that without them the world would be defenseless against having something worse happening. In fact, one possibility that comes to mind - what if, instead of being the act that caused the Blights as the Chantry claims, the Tevinter incursion into the Golden City was a last-ditch attempt to prevent them by freeing the Old Gods before one of them was found by the Darkspawn?

[SusanStoHelit]

Ooh, I go away for a day or two, and you go on without me, lol. Great hypotheses peeps!



I like the idea that the magisters may have been lying about where they gained their power; we can't know if it's true, of course, but it's definitely a viable possibility. As, indeed, is the idea that the Old Gods, even if they did give those powers to the magisters, may not have been fully aware of how they were being used.



Some other good points have been raised, but a sneaky thought just entered my brain as a direct result of draxynnus' post. To wit, even if the Old Gods were aware of the way that the power they gave (if they gave it) was being used, it may have been the price they paid to succeed in some larger and more important objective. It reminds me of another group in Thedas who use a credo of 'whatever it takes'. Can anyone spell Grey Warden?

[TheLion36]

SusanStoHelit wrote...
Some other good points have been raised, but a sneaky thought just entered my brain as a direct result of draxynnus' post. To wit, even if the Old Gods were aware of the way that the power they gave (if they gave it) was being used, it may have been the price they paid to succeed in some larger and more important objective. It reminds me of another group in Thedas who use a credo of 'whatever it takes'. Can anyone spell Grey Warden?

I might have stated this before but someone raised a balance question once, like Yin/Yang the old gods and the Maker might be balanced out, so perhaps if all the old gods are dead something terrible happens... This would make it worth saving at least one of them to prevent the scale dropping to one side entirely. This would warrant great sacrifices.

I'm also still not sure if Blood Magic is evil by itself either, I would consider that the way it is used would determine whether its good or bad... A pair of scissors can be considered a good thing as well until someone decides to stick it in someone elses heart afterall.

And even if the old gods where not the nicest creatures in the world, one could wonder if they where like this from the start or if something made them this way. Perhaps the soul in Morrigans child has no memory and just the power. Morrigan did state it would change the child and become something else, she never specified it would become an old god... And perhaps Morrigans upbringing can shape the child, hopefully with some of the values she learned from us during our adventures!

Modifié par TheLion36, 14 février 2010 - 09:47 .

[draxynnus]

SusanStoHelit wrote...

Some other good points have been raised, but a sneaky thought just entered my brain as a direct result of draxynnus' post. To wit, even if the Old Gods were aware of the way that the power they gave (if they gave it) was being used, it may have been the price they paid to succeed in some larger and more important objective. It reminds me of another group in Thedas who use a credo of 'whatever it takes'. Can anyone spell Grey Warden?

Yes. In fact, in my initial mental draft, I made exactly that analogy - but by the time I got it all to virtual paper, it had slipped out of my mind (doh! )

[errant_knight]

Very good point, guys! I find myself increasingly curious about the old gods and the part they play in all this.

[SusanStoHelit]

draxynnus wrote...

SusanStoHelit wrote...

Some other good points have been raised, but a sneaky thought just entered my brain as a direct result of draxynnus' post. To wit, even if the Old Gods were aware of the way that the power they gave (if they gave it) was being used, it may have been the price they paid to succeed in some larger and more important objective. It reminds me of another group in Thedas who use a credo of 'whatever it takes'. Can anyone spell Grey Warden?

Yes. In fact, in my initial mental draft, I made exactly that analogy - but by the time I got it all to virtual paper, it had slipped out of my mind (doh! )

Happens to me all the time, lol.