117 réponses à ce sujet

[WillieStyle]

Thanks to JSLfromBx for suggesting this experiment.
[Edit]
Fixed an error in my estimation of Heightened Adrenaline Rush's damage boost
[/Edit]

I have confiremed that base Adrenaline rush confers a +100% bonus to weapon damage.
This test is pretty simple:
-Import a lvl 60 ME1 save to ME2. 
-Choose soldier.
-Put points into Adrenaline Rush. 
-Save the game.
-Make sure you DO NOT have any damage bonuses active. Don't activate ammo powers and don't put points in Combat Mastery.
-DO NOT activate AR and take two shots at the Mech in the first room.  Note how far its health bar goes down (it should be just at the"M" in "Mech").
-Now reload and activate AR.  Take a single shot at the same Mech.  It's health should drop to the exact same point.
-Make sure all shots are the Mech's body NOT head.
This confirms that base AR confers a +100% bonus to weapon damage.

I'm pretty sure this is because base AR halves attack speed.  To make up for it, they seemed to have hacked in this +100% weapon damage so that your "real-time" dps stays constant.  Of course, since damage bonuses are additive, your "real-time" dps won't actually remain constant if you have other damage bonuses like disruptor ammo.

Given all this, if they coded Adrenaline Rush so that it gives a damage bonus based on the time dilation, then the damage bonus from Heightened Adrenaline rush should be:
100*[1/(1-0.70)-1] = +233%. 
Unfortunately, I can't get Heightened Adrenaline Rush on this quick save because the game automatically places points in disruptor ammo and AP ammo (my bonus skill).

Someone with the time, should level their starting Soldier to level 6 and perform the same test.  If you deal 3 times as much damage per shot with Adrenaline Rush than without it (with no other damage bonuses active) then it will confirm the fact that the damage bonus scales with time dilation.

It would also help to test this with an Infiltrator.
Take Max Operative up to Assassin.  Then Fire a single shot with a sniper rifle making sure to wait until AFTER the slow-time effect wears off. Record how much damage is done.  Then reload and take the same shot but this time make sure you take the shot BEFORE the slow-time effect wears off. Compare the damage to see if it's different.
It won't be as easy to calculate the bonus damage because Assassin also gives a 15% weapon damage bonus, but it can be done.

The rest of this post is speculation until the above tests are performed.
[speculation]
If weapon damage scales with time dilation, this result would have different effects for the Soldier and Infiltrator.
For the Soldier, it would mean:
-Heightened Adrenaline Rush >> Hardened Adrenaline Rush.
-Fully auto weapons reign supreme.  Any downtime between weapon bursts from semi-auto weapons like the Vindicator would lead to wasted damage potential.  The Revenant would appear to be superior for Soldiers for this reason.
-Similarly, the Viper >> Widow, because time wasted reloading the weapon is even more of a dps penalty.

For the Infiltrator, the results are almost the oppossite:
-Assassin >> Agent because of the increased time-dilation while aiming with a sniper rifle.
-It is absolutely crucial to get the sniper shot off before the time dilation effect wears off.  If the effect does wear off, re-aim. Do not waste ammo on a non-time-dilated sniper shot.
-Widow v. Viper.  It would depend on whether or not the you can fire more than 4 shots from the viper in 2.25 secs after aiming.   The RoF of the Viper is 240/min with a 0.65 s burst refire time.  I think this means you can fire 3.5 shots at most from the Viper in 2.25 secs.  Meaning the Widow is still superior even without tactical cloak.
[/speculation]

Modifié par WillieStyle, 09 février 2010 - 12:48 .

[Gaidren]

Interesting.



I'm surprised they give any damage bonus at all, to be honest. Yes, you fire slower during AR....but *everything* happens slower too, including incoming damage/fire. The ability is good for easily racking up headshots on moving targets, with any damage bonus being....well...a bonus. I'll have to make sure I always pop AR before using the sniper rifle now too (I usually did anyways).



I took Hardened Adrenaline Rush, so if the damage bonus does in fact scale with dilation I guess I feel pretty silly....although the "Shield Wall" effect of Hardened AR has saved my life tons of times on Insanity.



Having messed around with the Revenant, I can say that I found the Vindicator far easier to chain headshots with on anything that isn't at short range....so downtime between bursts aside I still think Vindicator > Revenant.

[JSLfromBx]

thanks a lot for giving me credit for this , also nice find about the time dilatation bonus I am gonna have to try this.



I have been thinking about this too, cause 100% bonus looks quite overpowered on paper. I think, one the big factor is a very simple one : ammo. Running out of ammo is bad on a sentinel but it's not the end of the world, running out of ammo on a soldier is a whole different story.



After using adrenaline rush extensively I can tell you that it really help with that, you need a lot less bullet to kill something thanks to the damage buff and you miss a lot less thanks to the time slowdown, it's probably overkill for normal/veteran, but on insanity, without this damage bonus, ammo would become a real issue prety quickly .

[matt654321]

I'd be really interested in the results of how exactly it scales. Looks like Soldier + Widow might just be the highest DPS in the game now.

[TheBestClass]

If this is true it makes Hardened AR vastly inferior.

[konfeta]

People run out of ammo in this game? News to me.

[RamsenC]

Poor infiltrator if this is true. Now the soldier could be the best sniper.

[tangofish]

Insanity soldier heavy pistol only challenge! Go! Go! Go!

[blank1]

Anyone who use adrenaline rush constantly would have recognized that things seem to die faster when using it. In Insanity, I practically spammed adrenaline rush.

[TheBestClass]

So, does anyone have the results yet? Which version of AR is better?

[Hoffburger]

RamsenC wrote...

Poor infiltrator if this is true. Now the soldier could be the best sniper.

If it applies to all time dilation effects Infiltrators will still be the best, if not, then yea, Soldiers will. Could also mean Vanguards could be doing more damage than previously thought and might make them #3 over Sentinels on the "tier list." IMO Vanguards and Sentinels were both pretty close. I would probably give the edge to the Vanguard because they get a weapon damage bonus and Charge is kinda like Tech Armor without the damage bonus.

Modifié par Hoffburger, 09 février 2010 - 03:48 .

[matt654321]

It would be great if we could get a dev to confirm how this works.

[RamsenC]

Hoffburger wrote...

RamsenC wrote...

Poor infiltrator if this is true. Now the soldier could be the best sniper.

If it applies to all time dilation effects Infiltrators will still be the best, if not, then yea, Soldiers will. Could also mean Vanguards could be doing more damage than previously thought and might make them #3 over Sentinels on the "tier list." IMO Vanguards and Sentinels were both pretty close. I would probably give the edge to the Vanguard because they get a weapon damage bonus and Charge is kinda like Tech Armor without the damage bonus.

Very early on I thought Sentinels were the best class, but my Vanguard insanity run wen't much more smoothly than my Sentinel. In fact I would only rank Infiltrator and Soldier above the Vanguard in effectiveness if and only if you get the Widow. Otherwise I would rank a well played Vanguard higher.

Interesting theory on the time slow, hopefully someone can shed some light on this.

[Mr.Skar]

TheBestclass wrote...

So, does anyone have the results yet? Which version of AR is better?

This. Inquiring minds want to know.

[Frosty Ananth]

I can confirm that the Infiltrator passive scope slowdown does NOT offer a damage boost.

Tested on the first two mechs in Freedom's Progress with Rank 3, which offers a similar 50% slowdown. I put the difficulty on Insanity so that the mechs could well survive a sniper blast, and both in and out of slowdown, the damage was the same.

I reran it with a Soldier of the same level and difficulty and the same mechs that took two headshots to kill with the same sniper now took 1 with Adrenaline Rush.

Looks like Soldiers are better Snipers.

Modifié par Frosty Ananth, 09 février 2010 - 08:31 .

[lessthanjake9]

Given all this, if they coded Adrenaline Rush so that it gives a damage bonus based on the time dilation, then the damage bonus from Heightened Adrenaline rush should be:
100*[1/(1-0.75)-1] = +300%. 

This whole thread is really interesting for the revelation about the damage boost, but I am not sure I understand your use of this equation.

Why would Heightened Adrenaline Rush give 300% damage? I understand that your equation equals 300, but where did you get that equation from? Heightened Adrenaline Rush has a 70% time dilation. Everything else has 50% time dilation. Where did you get the 0.75 in that equation?

You showed that 50% time dilation multiplies damage by 2. Thus, a much easier equation to fit in would be to say that damage is multiplied by the inverse of the fraction of normal speed that time is now going. For instance, with 50% time dilation, time is going 50% as fast as usual. That is 1/2. The inverse of 1/2 is 2. Thus damage is multiplied by 2. With 70% time dilation, time is moving at 30% normal speed. That is 3/10. The inverse of 3/10 is 3.33. Thus, if AR is coded based on time dilation, then wouldnt it make more sense to theorize that Heightened Adrenaline Rush would multiple normal damage by 3.33?

Anyways, I suppose this makes Soldiers the best snipers. They have the same scope slowdown as Infiltrators basically, but more damage boost from Adrenaline Rush than Infiltrators have from Tactical Cloak, and Tactical Cloak only works for one shot. A Soldier could get a couple shots in during their adrenaline rush, limiting time spent in cover.

[WillieStyle]

I incorrectly assumed 75% time dilation instead of 70% for Heightened Adrenaline Rush.

[WillieStyle]

Frosty Ananth wrote...

I can confirm that the Infiltrator passive scope slowdown does NOT offer a damage boost.

Tested on the first two mechs in Freedom's Progress with Rank 3, which offers a similar 50% slowdown. I put the difficulty on Insanity so that the mechs could well survive a sniper blast, and both in and out of slowdown, the damage was the same.

I reran it with a Soldier of the same level and difficulty and the same mechs that took two headshots to kill with the same sniper now took 1 with Adrenaline Rush.

Looks like Soldiers are better Snipers.

Thanks for the test.  That's certainly dissappointing.
It means that Soldiers are the best Snipers in the game and Infiltrators are basically redundant.  Tactical Cloak in particular now seems like a relatively crappy ability.

[Kronner]

WillieStyle wrote...

Frosty Ananth wrote...

I can confirm that the Infiltrator passive scope slowdown does NOT offer a damage boost.

Tested on the first two mechs in Freedom's Progress with Rank 3, which offers a similar 50% slowdown. I put the difficulty on Insanity so that the mechs could well survive a sniper blast, and both in and out of slowdown, the damage was the same.

I reran it with a Soldier of the same level and difficulty and the same mechs that took two headshots to kill with the same sniper now took 1 with Adrenaline Rush.

Looks like Soldiers are better Snipers.

Thanks for the test.  That's certainly dissappointing.
It means that Soldiers are the best Snipers in the game and Infiltrators are basically redundant.  Tactical Cloak in particular now seems like a relatively crappy ability.

Cloak crappy? How so? You can one-shot any standard enemy without any risk of taking any damage.
But I agree that Soldiers are even better.

Modifié par Kronner, 09 février 2010 - 01:20 .

[Urazz]

Gaidren wrote...

Having messed around with the Revenant, I can say that I found the Vindicator far easier to chain headshots with on anything that isn't at short range....so downtime between bursts aside I still think Vindicator > Revenant.

I dunno about the vindicator being better because you can use headshots more easily.  It has much less ammo than the revenant. and that makes it a much less desireable weapon to me on instanity.  Especially, if you run into Husks and other melee stuff like them.

[Gaidren]

Urazz wrote...

Gaidren wrote...

Having messed around with the Revenant, I can say that I found the Vindicator far easier to chain headshots with on anything that isn't at short range....so downtime between bursts aside I still think Vindicator > Revenant.

I dunno about the vindicator being better because you can use headshots more easily.  It has much less ammo than the revenant. and that makes it a much less desireable weapon to me on instanity.  Especially, if you run into Husks and other melee stuff like them.

It's true that vs. melee swarms Revenant > Vindicator, and that some of the tougher parts of the game involve
getting swarmed up close.  Most of the game's combat takes place at a range where I find chain head shots trivial and easy to pull off with the Vind, and hard to do consistantly with the Revenant.  I played the derelict collector ship part on Insanity with both weapons, and it was easier with the Vind to me....even though I ran out of ammo near the end, and had to switch to the Widow (which I got instead of the Rev) for a bit.

The ammo thing really doesn't feel like a big problem to be on Insanity with the Vind.  I don't waste ammo though.  If I have to occasionally go sniper or pistol for a bit, no biggie....it isn't like ME1 where you feel gimped with anything other than your primary weapon you specced into.

Even if Heightened AR ends up having a greater damage bonus, there are times where I feel like Hardened AR saves the day.  The other day on Insanity I was doing Tali's loyalty quest.  There's a section where you are behind cover and an elite geth of some sort (hunter?) charges up the stairs quickly and just destroys you from point blank range.  I died/reloaded a few times here.  When I eventually survived, it was all due to Hardened AR.  I popped that as I desperately tried to kill the geth elite before dying, and lived with about 1/5 life left.

Does AR give a damage bonus to the nuke weapon too?  If so, can you pop AR just before it goes off...or do you need to use it before you start charging it?

[Homebound]

I have nothing to add to this math testing stuff since I suck at math, but I can say that I visually notice a REAL increase in damage with Adrenaline Rush on. My strategy is to use Adrenaline Rush on those Heavy Mech guys. Before I just spammed em with Warp ammo, but now Im noticing, instead bullet-by-bullet with Adrenaline Rush on, the Mech's are getting DESTROYED. It takes 3 bullets with Adrenaline Rush to rip through a Mech's armor with Warp Ammo on and with Andrenaline Rush on. (Both of which should be around 2-3 at this point). While Warp ammo alone I noticed, took 5-6,7 shots. This is in Normal difficulty. Using the default assault rifle with zero upgrades.

Since this is a visual observation, there is a greater margin for human error, but I definitely notice a difference in damage.

Modifié par Just_mike, 09 février 2010 - 03:48 .

[matt654321]

Frosty Ananth wrote...

I can confirm that the Infiltrator passive scope slowdown does NOT offer a damage boost.

Tested on the first two mechs in Freedom's Progress with Rank 3, which offers a similar 50% slowdown. I put the difficulty on Insanity so that the mechs could well survive a sniper blast, and both in and out of slowdown, the damage was the same.

I reran it with a Soldier of the same level and difficulty and the same mechs that took two headshots to kill with the same sniper now took 1 with Adrenaline Rush.

Looks like Soldiers are better Snipers.

I always felt that Charge should have had a damage boost attached to it. Bummer.

[Hoffburger]

All hail soldiers, supreme rulers of the game.

[WillieStyle]

A comment from a developer on this issue would be nice.

Perhaps we're missing something.