117 réponses à ce sujet

[Frosty Ananth]

I'm not terribly good at math, does 140% make up for the attack speed loss?

[matt654321]

Eric ****nan wrote...

Adrenaline Rush gives you a 100% damage bonus. Heightened Adrenaline Rush increases this bonus to 140%.

Thank you for the clarification!

Seems like Heightened is better for snipers are Hardened is better if you like to hold the trigger down longer with your AR. These two options seem pretty well balanced, IMO.

Modifié par matt654321, 10 février 2010 - 12:49 .

[WillieStyle]

Frosty Ananth wrote...

I'm not terribly good at math, does 140% make up for the attack speed loss?

No.
But it's still a bonus because your enemies are also slowed down by 70%.

Modifié par WillieStyle, 10 février 2010 - 01:02 .

[Frosty Ananth]

Hardened it is then.



Unless you were sporting a Widow, I suppose. Not sure where this leaves Infiltrators. Incinerate isn't worth that big a loss in damage.

[Gaidren]

Mr.Skar wrote...

I'm seeing a hell of a difference in terms of damage (when in AR) between the vindicator and revenant. So long as you do a bit of rushing when you have the Revenant out, the damage is significant. Constant fire versus burst. Constant wins out. This is on Veteran, so your ability to rush may change in hardcore/insanity.

Having played a bit on Insanity with both weapons....I really found the Vind was better, but maybe I didn't do enough close combat with the Rev.  For mid range fighting I just found it soooo easy to chain head shots with the Vind, where as head shots with the Rev weren't possible unless I was in pretty close.  NOTE:  This was without the AR accuracy upgrade.  Perhaps with it I'd have found the Rev easier to head shot with at mid range.

[konfeta]

Wait, what? Frosty, that doesn't follow. Time dilation, in and of itself, does not cause damage loss in terms of per ammo shot. There is no attack speed loss relative to the game.

Relative ot how fast your enemies damage you, you still have the 140% damage bonus on them with no penalty what-so-ever.

Modifié par konfeta, 10 février 2010 - 01:38 .

[Ranik15]

Frosty Ananth wrote...

Hardened it is then.

Unless you were sporting a Widow, I suppose. Not sure where this leaves Infiltrators. Incinerate isn't worth that big a loss in damage.

I agree, the Infiltrator class is now in a weird position because AR gets +100 or +140% damage in slo-mo. Hey, Infiltrators get either +50% or +60% slo-mo and only +40 or +75% damage and that's spread out in two different powers at their highest evolution.

[matt654321]

Don't count Infiltrators as lesser Soldiers. Cloak is much more useful than just a damage bonus, and the damage is still competitive. Further, they don't have to deal with a three second cooldown whenever they want to snipe - they get that slo-mo every single time.

[Ranik15]

matt654321 wrote...

Don't count Infiltrators as lesser Soldiers. Cloak is much more useful than just a damage bonus, and the damage is still competitive. Further, they don't have to deal with a three second cooldown whenever they want to snipe - they get that slo-mo every single time.

The slo-mo for sniping I can get with the Soldier and Infiltrator, but for me the Cloak is why I choose to sniper with the Infiltrator. It's a damage boost + slo-mo + not being shot at and my reticle doesn't go off-center of where I want it.

That last part doesn't quite make up for significantly less damage than a Commando/Heightened AR specced Soldier. I went Assassin/Assassin Cloak with the Visor and other individual pieces of equipment for straight up damage. So if a Soldier in the first spec I mentioned, which I do have, can outdo my Infiltrator just because of the unlisted damage bonus, I'm gonna have to dig around in the proper .ini file and do some editing of my own.

[rumination888]

matt654321 wrote...

Don't count Infiltrators as lesser Soldiers. Cloak is much more useful than just a damage bonus, and the damage is still competitive. Further, they don't have to deal with a three second cooldown whenever they want to snipe - they get that slo-mo every single time.

Agreed. I personally like to use cloak to "backstab" a lone enemy off to the side with the Tempest, which then sets me up up to flank the rest with my sniper rifle while my squad hammers down the enemy from the front. Your squad gets a lot more shots in when you're flanking the enemy.

[Ranik15]

rumination888 wrote...

matt654321 wrote...

Don't count Infiltrators as lesser Soldiers. Cloak is much more useful than just a damage bonus, and the damage is still competitive. Further, they don't have to deal with a three second cooldown whenever they want to snipe - they get that slo-mo every single time.

Agreed. I personally like to use cloak to "backstab" a lone enemy off to the side with the Tempest, which then sets me up up to flank the rest with my sniper rifle while my squad hammers down the enemy from the front. Your squad gets a lot more shots in when you're flanking the enemy.

The problem with the whole 'flanking a lone enemy' logic as a big support for Cloak over AR is that not many fights will allow that to occur, and even then, a Soldier, Adept, heck a Vanguard can flank that lone enemy. Unless it's you, a Scion, maybe Harbinger or YMIR.

[rumination888]

Ranik15 wrote...

The problem with the whole 'flanking a lone enemy' logic as a big support for Cloak over AR is that not many fights will allow that to occur, and even then, a Soldier, Adept, heck a Vanguard can flank that lone enemy. Unless it's you, a Scion, maybe Harbinger or YMIR.

I'm not sure I follow. Almost every fight allows that to occur.
And yes, you can do it with Charge but I prefer to bowl them over from the center as a Vanguard. Much more fun and quick that way.

[matt654321]

I didn't say anything about flanking - that's only on top of what I said.

[Malanthor]

So if i understand this correctly then :



heigthened: +140% damage but 40% slower fire rate than with hardened (10 shots over 5 sec normally, 5 shot with hardened, 3 shots with heightened due to the time dilation)



normal guy without adrenaline rush uses weapon that does 10 damage per shot and fires 1 shot per 0,5 second, making for 100 damage with 10 shots and over 5 seconds. Soldier using adrenaline rush with hardened fires 5 shots and does 100 damage over the same time period due to 100% bonus damage and 50% slowdown, soldier using heighened adrenaline rush fires 3 shots and does 72 damage over the same 5 seconds with 140% damage and 70% slowdown.



As for damage reduction, with time moving slower the heigthened version of adrenaline rush also takes 40% less incoming fire, resulting in taking 40% less damage-over-time for those 5 seconds while the hardened version take 50% less health damage while it lasts.



Is this correct??



I havent done much math since over 10 years ago so it may be that im horrendously misunderstanding the whole issue. If so, someone please correct me.

[RiouHotaru]

Yeah, don't count out us Infiltrators so easily. We can abuse our slo-mo simply by going in and out of sniper view, whereas Adrenaline has a cooldown you have to observe. Plus Cloak completely removes enemy aggro. So we're not completely out of the game.



We might not have a massive DPS output, but we're still masters of the surgical strike!

[WillieStyle]

Self Controll wrote...

Is this correct??

Yes.
But only if you don't have any other damage bonuses.

Modifié par WillieStyle, 10 février 2010 - 04:32 .

[Malanthor]

Thank you Willie. Dont that make hardened the def best choice? I mean, you can do 40% less with heightened since you move so very slow, run, shoot, melee, dps whatever, is the extra frontload damage and the increased slowdown of the world really worth it?

Edit: wont extra damage bonuses just add an equal amound to the damage i calculated or will it shift the balance?

Modifié par Self Controll, 10 février 2010 - 04:36 .

[TheBestClass]

Numbers aren't my thing but I think Hardened is the way to go.

[WillieStyle]

Self Controll wrote...

Thank you Willie. Dont that make hardened the def best choice?
 

Yes.

Edit: wont extra damage bonuses just add an equal amount to the damage i calculated

Yes.

or will it shift the balance?

Yes.

Let's say you do X damage per shot without any bonuses.  And let's say that you can get off 10 shots in 6 secs.  With Hardened, you get off 5 shots.  With Heightened you get off 3 shots.
Damage done in that 6 sec time window:
No AR -> 10X
Hard AR -> 5(2X) = 10X
Height AR -> 3(2.4X) = 7.2X.

So how did popping AR affect damage?
No AR-> 10X/10X = 1 (obviously)
Hard AR-> 10X/10X = 1 (doesn't change damage)
Height AR-> 7.2X/10X = 0.72 (reduces damage by 28%)
This is exactly what you found.

Now what happens if you have other bonuses.
Let's say you have (100y)% extra amage bonuses.  Then in the same 6 sec window you will do:
No AR -> 10(X+yX) = 10(1+y)X
Hard AR-> 5(2X+yX) = 5(2+y)X
Height AR-> 3(2.4X + yX) = 3(2.4+y)X.

Now how did popping AR affect damage?
No AR -> [10(1+y)X]/[10(1+y)X] = 1 (obviously)
Hard AR-> [5(2+y)X]/[10(1+y)X] = (2+y)/(2+2y) < 1, unless y = 0  (reduces damage unless you have no other damage bonuses)
Height AR-> [3(2.4+y)X]/[10(1+y)X] = 0.3*(2.4+y)/(1+y) < 1 for all y. (always reduces damage)

TLDR: If you have other damage bonuses, then both Hardened and Heightened Adrenaline rush will reduce your total damage done in the 6 secs they are active versus not using them at all.  Heightened will reduce your damage more.

Modifié par WillieStyle, 10 février 2010 - 05:00 .

[Malanthor]

Aha, i see. Thank you.

[Ranik15]

WillieStyle wrote...

Self Controll wrote...

Thank you Willie. Dont that make hardened the def best choice?
 

Yes.

Edit: wont extra damage bonuses just add an equal amount to the damage i calculated

Yes.

or will it shift the balance?

Yes.

Let's say you do X damage per shot without any bonuses.  And let's say that you can get off 10 shots in 6 secs.  With Hardened, you get off 5 shots.  With Heightened you get off 3 shots.
Damage done in that 6 sec time window:
No AR -> 10X
Hard AR -> 5(2X) = 10X
Height AR -> 3(2.4X) = 7.2X.

So how did popping AR affect damage?
No AR-> 10X/10X = 1 (obviously)
Hard AR-> 10X/10X = 1 (doesn't change damage)
Height AR-> 7.2X/10X = 0.72 (reduces damage by 28%)
This is exactly what you found.

Now what happens if you have other bonuses.
Let's say you have (100y)% extra amage bonuses.  Then in the same 6 sec window you will do:
No AR -> 10(X+yX) = 10(1+y)X
Hard AR-> 5(2X+yX) = 5(2+y)X
Height AR-> 3(2.4X + yX) = 3(2.4+y)X.

Now how did popping AR affect damage?
No AR -> [10(1+y)X]/[10(1+y)X] = 1 (obviously)
Hard AR-> [5(2+y)X]/[10(1+y)X] = (2+y)/(2+2y) < 1, unless y = 0  (reduces damage unless you have no other damage bonuses)
Height AR-> [3(2.4+y)X]/[10(1+y)X] = 0.3*(2.4+y)/(1+y) < 1 for all y. (always reduces damage)

TLDR: If you have other damage bonuses, then both Hardened and Heightened Adrenaline rush will reduce your total damage done in the 6 secs they are active versus not using them at all.  Heightened will reduce your damage more.

Suddenly I feel like I'm back in Algebra class after seeing those formulae.

[matt654321]

That's actually pretty misleading.

If you're talking about 6 seconds of actual time, yes, you will do less damage with Adrenaline Rush on than if you don't have it on as long as you have damage bonuses.

However, Adrenaline Rush makes time progress half as quickly, so within game time you've actually done the amount of damage that you would have done in 6 seconds in only 3 seconds.

The power would still be good even without the damage bonus. Yes, in real time you'd do half as much damage, but in game time you'd do the same amount of damage AND you'd be able to take advantage of being able to react more quickly thanks to everything slowing down.

With the damage bonus, however, you're essentially doubling your damage within the game's time frame.


Bottom line: If you take a stopwatch and count your DPS over 6 seconds real time, it'll be the same or slightly lower. However, if you let the game do the counting, you'll have done nearly twice as much damage within half of that amount of time.

Modifié par matt654321, 10 février 2010 - 06:46 .

[WillieStyle]

Of course. Adrenaline Rush is the best ability in the game. I didn't mean to imply otherwise.

[blank1]

I love how everyone was once whining (or gloating) that the Soldier would be the gimpiest class in the game and that adrenaline rush was the worst special ability...



As it ends up, Soldiers are likely the most OP class lol

[Frosty Ananth]

So could the Widow with Heightened match the Viper's output with Hardened? You can pretty much get one shot no matter the version of Adrenaline Rush with the Widow, and that's the only use for Heightened I can think of.