Modifié par Whailor, 10 février 2010 - 09:13 .
Adrenaline Rush: +100% Weapon Damage Bonus Confirmed
Débuté par
WillieStyle
, févr. 09 2010 01:09
#76
Posté 10 février 2010 - 09:12
Whailor
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Sheesh, why all the crying, it's a single player game for crying out loud. Doesn't matter what one class might do better then another, simply play that class then and done. Play your stealthy cheating char in one game by dropping aggro anywhere any time and getting "free shots" in and play your "powerhouse" soldier in another game, case closed. I can understand that the class balance would be an issue in an MMO but geez, this is a single player offline game..
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#77
Posté 10 février 2010 - 09:49
lessthanjake9
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1. Heightened AR might be kind of lame in this case.
Let's say AR lasts 5 seconds, and during those 5 seconds, you can get off 10 shots normally. With normal AR, you can get off 5 shots in that time. With Heightened AR, you can get off 3 shots.
Each shot of normal AR adds 100% extra damage. Each shot of Heightened AR adds 140% extra damage. Normal AR has 5 shots. Thus, total, it will do +500% extra damage during the duration of the power. Heightened AR has 3 shots. So it will only do a total of +420% extra damage during the duration of the power.
Furthermore, reloads are slower with Heightened AR, so if you happen to have to reload during the power's duration, then more of your extra damage is taken away with Heightened AR than it is with normal AR. Let me explain. Let's say reloading takes 1 second. With normal AR, a reload would take 2 seconds. With Heightened AR, a reload would take 3.33 seconds. Thus with Heightened, more of your 5 second duration is taken up by a reload if you happen to have to reload. This lowers your extra damage even more. The same goes for time between bursts of a weapon like the Vindicator. It will be longer on Heightened, and thus more of your 5 seconds will be taken up not doing extra damage.
So I believe Heightened AR lowers your damage relative to normal AR if you measure it based on how much extra damage it is giving you during the duration of the power.
2. However, that only makes Heightened worse if you are measuring effectiveness based on extra damage per use of the power. What IS true is that Heightened AR gives you more bang for your buck in terms of ammo. So for instance, let's say you are using the Vindicator. One problem with this weapon is that it tends to run low on ammo. You only have a total of 120 bullets at full capacity. I believe it does about 36 base damage per hit. Thus, normally, a full capacity Vindicator has the ability to do 4320 total damage. If you shot all those bullets while under normal Adrenaline Rush, your Vindicator would have the ability to do 8640 damage total. With Heightened AR, your Vindicator could do 10368 damage. You wouldnt really run out of ammo. A more pertinent example is probably using a Sniper Rifle like the Widow. It does about 360 damage a hit and I believe you only have 13 bullets. You want the most bang for your buck. Normal AR will get you 720 damage in one hit. Heightened AR will get you 864. Most of the time, either will be a one shot kill, but on tougher enemies, the extra sniper damage will be quite welcome. So I would think that Heightened AR would be better for snipers.
The only thing that might change my mind on sniping is that it MIGHT be possible to get 2 shots off in 1 normal AR time period and not possible to do it in 1 heightened AR time period due to extra reload time. If that's the case, then Heightened AR still gets more bang for the buck, but would have to be slower and more methodical about it (which isnt so bad, because it won't be any slower than an Infiltrator).
3. LASTLY, though is that while Heightened will add less extra damage over its duration than normal AR, you will also get hit a lot less during that period of time. If you are getting shot while Adrenaline Rushing, then you will take 66.67% less damage during a Heightened AR than a normal AR. Hardened AR partially makes up for this by making you take 50% less health damage while its on. However, that is not shield damage, and even when you are down to health, you will still be taking less damage with Heightened.
So let's say you take a lot of damage during a rush. Roughly speaking, your character's defense will be about half health and half shields (assuming you dont have something like Geth Shield Boost). With Hardened AR, you will take normal damage on shields, and -50% damage on health. Lets assume you have 300 health and 300 shields. This means that you will die if 900 total damage is done to you (300 for shields and 600 to take down the health) during the Adrenaline Rush. With Heightened AR, you will die if 600 damage is done to you during the AR. HOWEVER, with the extra time dilation, your damage taken will dramatically decrease. So let's say the Hardened AR user takes 900 damage over those 5 seconds of AR and dies. With time dilated more, you would only take 540 damage during the rush and would still be alive. This effect is even greater comparatively if you have Geth Shield Boost/Barrier/Fortification. This is because it increases the amount of your defenses that arent affected by Hardened AR.
CONCLUSIONS:
- Due to the extra time dilation, Heightened AR results in lower damage over its duration than Hardened AR does. Others have already pointed this out. The difference is 28%.
- Similarly, Hardened AR results in more EXTRA damage over its duration than Heightened AR does. Depending on what weapon is being used (ie whether its a burst weapon etc etc), I believe the difference will be about 15-40% less bonus damage over the duration. The possible exception is a sniper rifle in a situation only one shot can be lined up either way. In that case, you will get 40% extra bonus damage from Heightened AR.
- Heightened AR gives you more bang for your buck with low ammo. Thus, it might be the best way to go for a sniper. You will get more damage per shot, and thus more one shot kills.
- Heightened AR may result in less damage over its duration than Hardened AR. However, it also results in less damage taken, despite Hardened ARs added bonus. Depending on what equipment you have and what bonus talent you decide to get, I believe you will take 10-25% less damage over the duration of a Heightened AR than a Hardened AR.
Let's say AR lasts 5 seconds, and during those 5 seconds, you can get off 10 shots normally. With normal AR, you can get off 5 shots in that time. With Heightened AR, you can get off 3 shots.
Each shot of normal AR adds 100% extra damage. Each shot of Heightened AR adds 140% extra damage. Normal AR has 5 shots. Thus, total, it will do +500% extra damage during the duration of the power. Heightened AR has 3 shots. So it will only do a total of +420% extra damage during the duration of the power.
Furthermore, reloads are slower with Heightened AR, so if you happen to have to reload during the power's duration, then more of your extra damage is taken away with Heightened AR than it is with normal AR. Let me explain. Let's say reloading takes 1 second. With normal AR, a reload would take 2 seconds. With Heightened AR, a reload would take 3.33 seconds. Thus with Heightened, more of your 5 second duration is taken up by a reload if you happen to have to reload. This lowers your extra damage even more. The same goes for time between bursts of a weapon like the Vindicator. It will be longer on Heightened, and thus more of your 5 seconds will be taken up not doing extra damage.
So I believe Heightened AR lowers your damage relative to normal AR if you measure it based on how much extra damage it is giving you during the duration of the power.
2. However, that only makes Heightened worse if you are measuring effectiveness based on extra damage per use of the power. What IS true is that Heightened AR gives you more bang for your buck in terms of ammo. So for instance, let's say you are using the Vindicator. One problem with this weapon is that it tends to run low on ammo. You only have a total of 120 bullets at full capacity. I believe it does about 36 base damage per hit. Thus, normally, a full capacity Vindicator has the ability to do 4320 total damage. If you shot all those bullets while under normal Adrenaline Rush, your Vindicator would have the ability to do 8640 damage total. With Heightened AR, your Vindicator could do 10368 damage. You wouldnt really run out of ammo. A more pertinent example is probably using a Sniper Rifle like the Widow. It does about 360 damage a hit and I believe you only have 13 bullets. You want the most bang for your buck. Normal AR will get you 720 damage in one hit. Heightened AR will get you 864. Most of the time, either will be a one shot kill, but on tougher enemies, the extra sniper damage will be quite welcome. So I would think that Heightened AR would be better for snipers.
The only thing that might change my mind on sniping is that it MIGHT be possible to get 2 shots off in 1 normal AR time period and not possible to do it in 1 heightened AR time period due to extra reload time. If that's the case, then Heightened AR still gets more bang for the buck, but would have to be slower and more methodical about it (which isnt so bad, because it won't be any slower than an Infiltrator).
3. LASTLY, though is that while Heightened will add less extra damage over its duration than normal AR, you will also get hit a lot less during that period of time. If you are getting shot while Adrenaline Rushing, then you will take 66.67% less damage during a Heightened AR than a normal AR. Hardened AR partially makes up for this by making you take 50% less health damage while its on. However, that is not shield damage, and even when you are down to health, you will still be taking less damage with Heightened.
So let's say you take a lot of damage during a rush. Roughly speaking, your character's defense will be about half health and half shields (assuming you dont have something like Geth Shield Boost). With Hardened AR, you will take normal damage on shields, and -50% damage on health. Lets assume you have 300 health and 300 shields. This means that you will die if 900 total damage is done to you (300 for shields and 600 to take down the health) during the Adrenaline Rush. With Heightened AR, you will die if 600 damage is done to you during the AR. HOWEVER, with the extra time dilation, your damage taken will dramatically decrease. So let's say the Hardened AR user takes 900 damage over those 5 seconds of AR and dies. With time dilated more, you would only take 540 damage during the rush and would still be alive. This effect is even greater comparatively if you have Geth Shield Boost/Barrier/Fortification. This is because it increases the amount of your defenses that arent affected by Hardened AR.
CONCLUSIONS:
- Due to the extra time dilation, Heightened AR results in lower damage over its duration than Hardened AR does. Others have already pointed this out. The difference is 28%.
- Similarly, Hardened AR results in more EXTRA damage over its duration than Heightened AR does. Depending on what weapon is being used (ie whether its a burst weapon etc etc), I believe the difference will be about 15-40% less bonus damage over the duration. The possible exception is a sniper rifle in a situation only one shot can be lined up either way. In that case, you will get 40% extra bonus damage from Heightened AR.
- Heightened AR gives you more bang for your buck with low ammo. Thus, it might be the best way to go for a sniper. You will get more damage per shot, and thus more one shot kills.
- Heightened AR may result in less damage over its duration than Hardened AR. However, it also results in less damage taken, despite Hardened ARs added bonus. Depending on what equipment you have and what bonus talent you decide to get, I believe you will take 10-25% less damage over the duration of a Heightened AR than a Hardened AR.
Modifié par lessthanjake9, 10 février 2010 - 09:55 .
#78
Posté 10 février 2010 - 09:54
The JoeMan
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This news kind of pisses me off actually. If I had known that there was this kind of damage bonus to AR I would have used it a lot more during my soldier play through. Instead I trusted that Bioware had put up an accurate description in the squad menu and all it did was slow down time, so I pretty much only used it for lining up sniper shots and running from cover to cover.
How hard would it have been to add a line like "Shepard's damage is increased to compensate for time dilation"?
How hard would it have been to add a line like "Shepard's damage is increased to compensate for time dilation"?
#79
Posté 10 février 2010 - 10:17
lessthanjake9
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Oh, another interesting way to look at the two is this:
Let's think about how much damage a weapon would do over 5 normal seconds. Let us assume the weapon shoots 10 shots per second normally and does 10 damage a shot. We will assume that Adrenaline Rush slows time for 6 seconds of real time (I believe it will when researched).
- Over 5 normal seconds, there would normally be 50 shots, for a total of 500 damage.
- Let's take normal AR. You will put AR on, and it will slow down time by 50% for 6 seconds. You will get 30 shots in during that time, each of which will do 20 damage. Time is dilated 50% such that only 3 seconds of normal time has gone by. This leaves you 2 more seconds of normal time to shoot in order for it to total 5 normal seconds. You will do 200 damage in this time. Overall damage will be 800, instead of 500.
- Let's take Heightened AR. Time will be slowed down 70%. This means that during the 6 seconds of AR, you will be able to get off 18 shots. Anyways, those 18 shots will do 432 damage total. However, since time was slowed down, only 1.8 seconds of real time went by. This leaves you with 3.2 seconds of time to do damage. During those 3.2 seconds, you can do 320 damage. The result is a total of 752 damage, down from 800 with normal AR.
Heightened AR will thus do less damage over a given period of normal time as well.
Let's think about how much damage a weapon would do over 5 normal seconds. Let us assume the weapon shoots 10 shots per second normally and does 10 damage a shot. We will assume that Adrenaline Rush slows time for 6 seconds of real time (I believe it will when researched).
- Over 5 normal seconds, there would normally be 50 shots, for a total of 500 damage.
- Let's take normal AR. You will put AR on, and it will slow down time by 50% for 6 seconds. You will get 30 shots in during that time, each of which will do 20 damage. Time is dilated 50% such that only 3 seconds of normal time has gone by. This leaves you 2 more seconds of normal time to shoot in order for it to total 5 normal seconds. You will do 200 damage in this time. Overall damage will be 800, instead of 500.
- Let's take Heightened AR. Time will be slowed down 70%. This means that during the 6 seconds of AR, you will be able to get off 18 shots. Anyways, those 18 shots will do 432 damage total. However, since time was slowed down, only 1.8 seconds of real time went by. This leaves you with 3.2 seconds of time to do damage. During those 3.2 seconds, you can do 320 damage. The result is a total of 752 damage, down from 800 with normal AR.
Heightened AR will thus do less damage over a given period of normal time as well.
#80
Posté 10 février 2010 - 10:33
lazorexplosion
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Seems very overpowered, I mean 100% weapon damage bloody huge. Suspect from lack of mention in description that this is unintentional. Hope it will be fixed.
#81
Posté 10 février 2010 - 10:40
lessthanjake9
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lazorexplosion wrote...
Seems very overpowered, I mean 100% weapon damage bloody huge. Suspect from lack of mention in description that this is unintentional. Hope it will be fixed.
No, it's intentional. They talked about it in the class video before the game was released. The reason they added 100% weapon damage is because otherwise Adrenaline Rush would, in a way, feel counterintuitive. By slowing down time, but having weapon damage be the same, it would just mean that it would take twice as long to kill things (based on real world time, not game time). That would feel rather underpowered.
By coupling 50% time dilation with 100% weapon damage, what you do is make it so that Adrenaline Rush does the same damage in real time as you would do without it. Thus, there is no situation where it may seem worthless to use the power because all it does is add to how long battles take.
#82
Posté 10 février 2010 - 10:47
lazorexplosion
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Oh. Well, still seems overpowered to me. 50% time dilation + 50% damage reduction (= enemy dps cut by 75%!) and 100% damage with a 5s duration and a 3s cooldown! Damn!lessthanjake9 wrote...
lazorexplosion wrote...
Seems very overpowered, I mean 100% weapon damage bloody huge. Suspect from lack of mention in description that this is unintentional. Hope it will be fixed.
No, it's intentional. They talked about it in the class video before the game was released. The reason they added 100% weapon damage is because otherwise Adrenaline Rush would, in a way, feel counterintuitive. By slowing down time, but having weapon damage be the same, it would just mean that it would take twice as long to kill things (based on real world time, not game time). That would feel rather underpowered.
By coupling 50% time dilation with 100% weapon damage, what you do is make it so that Adrenaline Rush does the same damage in real time as you would do without it. Thus, there is no situation where it may seem worthless to use the power because all it does is add to how long battles take.
#83
Posté 10 février 2010 - 11:05
lessthanjake9
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lazorexplosion wrote...
Oh. Well, still seems overpowered to me. 50% time dilation + 50% damage reduction (= enemy dps cut by 75%!) and 100% damage with a 5s duration and a 3s cooldown! Damn!lessthanjake9 wrote...
lazorexplosion wrote...
Seems very overpowered, I mean 100% weapon damage bloody huge. Suspect from lack of mention in description that this is unintentional. Hope it will be fixed.
No, it's intentional. They talked about it in the class video before the game was released. The reason they added 100% weapon damage is because otherwise Adrenaline Rush would, in a way, feel counterintuitive. By slowing down time, but having weapon damage be the same, it would just mean that it would take twice as long to kill things (based on real world time, not game time). That would feel rather underpowered.
By coupling 50% time dilation with 100% weapon damage, what you do is make it so that Adrenaline Rush does the same damage in real time as you would do without it. Thus, there is no situation where it may seem worthless to use the power because all it does is add to how long battles take.
Oh its certainly a good power, but I can see why they added such a damage bonus. Without a damage bonus all it would be is an aid to aiming as well as a way to run to cover without getting damaged as much as normal. It would not be very good at all, especially if one happened to be good enough at aiming that they didn't need it.
#84
Posté 10 février 2010 - 11:24
NihilisticN
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Here's what I think. Soldiers are the class bioware made for the casual gamers, they obviously have to be the easiest to play. I feel like Neo when playing that class, not necessarily a bad thing mind you.
Modifié par NihilisticN, 10 février 2010 - 11:58 .
#85
Posté 10 février 2010 - 12:05
wepeel_
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It's fine to make a class easy to play, but it's nice when there's some sort of trade-off for it too. Like, having classes that are hard to play but have great potential and come out really powerful when you master them. Mass Effect doesn't have a very complex class system though, most things are very streamlined, so the need for an extra-easy, extra-powerful class seems questionable. Of course, that may not be the design intention at all.
#86
Posté 10 février 2010 - 02:45
finc.loki
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Umm, when I look at all the math being done and all the explanations of adrenaline rush, it seems to me that it is a pointless thing to use.
Just use your head here for a second.
In normal 5 second time I deal 100% damage with 10 bullets.
In Hardened AR I deal 100% damage over FIVE EXACTLY THE SAME SECONDS.
Only difference is that I saved 5 bullets in the clip and it helped me aim if I happen to suck at twitch game aiming.
Seriously guy's don't you see it?
Why bother going into AR when during the exact same REAL LIFE time I do the same exact amount of damage or hell EVEN LESS with Heightened version.
So in essence it boils down to a pretty effect that will save you ammo.
When some of you say "in game time" it is different, how can it be? You still only deliver 5 bullets to the target during the whole 5 second slowdown time, which would deal EXACTLY the same amount of damage as if I didn't bother with it at all and just shoot 10.
This doesn't make sense to me.
It should work as this:
In normal time you shoot 10 bullets doing 100% damage in 5 seconds.
In AR you STILL shoot 10 bullets in 5 seconds BUT you do twice the damage with 100% damage bonus ending up dealing 200% damage in 5 seconds.
That is the only way AR would even be useful, otherwise it is just a lame help for those who can't aim at all and help you save bullets.
The point is, during the same amount of time the exact same damage is dealt, real time.
Doesn't this also mean that an Infiltrator still deals much more damage?
One widow shot with cloak, mind you it is NOT a 'slow down time' mode, it is a hidden mode that boost damage up to 70%.
So that in essence one widow shot outside of cloak does 100% damage, in cloak it does 170% over the SAME TIME.
The "time dilation" for infiltrator is just to 'line up a head shot", whilst in AR it slows down time so you can't shoot as fast so it ends up just being an aim assist mode.
Just look at this infiltrator video with Christina Norman.
You can clearly see that in "cloak mode" time doesn't slow down. So when the player shoots lets say the SMG he still dishes out the same amount of bullets but the difference is, each bullet deal an extra 70% damage in assasin cloak, that is until a few seconds later the cloak deactivates cause you started to shoot.
In AR, time just slow down and in order to make up for the 'less bullets on target' you get a multiplier of damage, that ends up just giving normal damage.
So, yeah, infiltrator still do more damage REAL TIME than any other class, at least in cloak mode.
Just use your head here for a second.
In normal 5 second time I deal 100% damage with 10 bullets.
In Hardened AR I deal 100% damage over FIVE EXACTLY THE SAME SECONDS.
Only difference is that I saved 5 bullets in the clip and it helped me aim if I happen to suck at twitch game aiming.
Seriously guy's don't you see it?
Why bother going into AR when during the exact same REAL LIFE time I do the same exact amount of damage or hell EVEN LESS with Heightened version.
So in essence it boils down to a pretty effect that will save you ammo.
When some of you say "in game time" it is different, how can it be? You still only deliver 5 bullets to the target during the whole 5 second slowdown time, which would deal EXACTLY the same amount of damage as if I didn't bother with it at all and just shoot 10.
This doesn't make sense to me.
It should work as this:
In normal time you shoot 10 bullets doing 100% damage in 5 seconds.
In AR you STILL shoot 10 bullets in 5 seconds BUT you do twice the damage with 100% damage bonus ending up dealing 200% damage in 5 seconds.
That is the only way AR would even be useful, otherwise it is just a lame help for those who can't aim at all and help you save bullets.
The point is, during the same amount of time the exact same damage is dealt, real time.
Doesn't this also mean that an Infiltrator still deals much more damage?
One widow shot with cloak, mind you it is NOT a 'slow down time' mode, it is a hidden mode that boost damage up to 70%.
So that in essence one widow shot outside of cloak does 100% damage, in cloak it does 170% over the SAME TIME.
The "time dilation" for infiltrator is just to 'line up a head shot", whilst in AR it slows down time so you can't shoot as fast so it ends up just being an aim assist mode.
Just look at this infiltrator video with Christina Norman.
You can clearly see that in "cloak mode" time doesn't slow down. So when the player shoots lets say the SMG he still dishes out the same amount of bullets but the difference is, each bullet deal an extra 70% damage in assasin cloak, that is until a few seconds later the cloak deactivates cause you started to shoot.
In AR, time just slow down and in order to make up for the 'less bullets on target' you get a multiplier of damage, that ends up just giving normal damage.
So, yeah, infiltrator still do more damage REAL TIME than any other class, at least in cloak mode.
Modifié par finc.loki, 10 février 2010 - 02:59 .
#87
Posté 10 février 2010 - 03:03
WillieStyle
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Not only does it save you ammo, it cuts the dps of all enemies on the screen in half as well.
In fact it does more than that:
- It makes it easier to dodge projectiles like rocket attacks. Hell with heightened, you can almost dodge bullets.
-If you activate it when enemies pop out of cover, you increase the amount of damage you can deal to them while out of cover, significantly increasing your effective dps.
-Makes it easier to line up headshots against enemies undercover (by targeting the tiny part of their heads that's exposed).
-Makes it easier to deal with enemies that charge or flank you because they move half as fast while you're dealing damage to them.
-It's great for situations where enemies are especially vulnerable for short periods of time (like the final boss).
-And of course, it saves ammo.
Adrenaline Rush is the best ability in the game.
In fact it does more than that:
- It makes it easier to dodge projectiles like rocket attacks. Hell with heightened, you can almost dodge bullets.
-If you activate it when enemies pop out of cover, you increase the amount of damage you can deal to them while out of cover, significantly increasing your effective dps.
-Makes it easier to line up headshots against enemies undercover (by targeting the tiny part of their heads that's exposed).
-Makes it easier to deal with enemies that charge or flank you because they move half as fast while you're dealing damage to them.
-It's great for situations where enemies are especially vulnerable for short periods of time (like the final boss).
-And of course, it saves ammo.
Adrenaline Rush is the best ability in the game.
Modifié par WillieStyle, 10 février 2010 - 03:04 .
#88
Posté 10 février 2010 - 03:17
wolfcp
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Anyone find it hilarious that that the Eric's last name gets censored?
#89
Posté 10 février 2010 - 03:56
finc.loki
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WillieStyle wrote...
Adrenaline Rush is the best ability in the game.
Subjective opinion.
Cloak allows you to hide and elude enemies.
It allows tactical control of the battlefield. It helps you deal 50-70% more damage.
Adrenaline rush might be OK, but that is also dependant on the skill of the user, someone good at aiming and has a lot of twitch skill don't need AR.
The ability to completely circumvent any enemy by hiding and just switching location is really useful.
Hell you can even cloak in plain sight and just walk past them, and you see them all looking the wrong way.
Now, equip a shotgun and sneak behind the enemy and just blast with 70% extra damage, just be smart and tactical to make sure that your back is covered or you can move into cover right away.You're still cloaked for the first few shots.
They both have their uses and we all have different opinions on which we like best.
I just find that AR should actually deal more damage, besides a one shot kill weapon like the widow.
Slowing down time is one thing, but if you can aim, then that is not needed, so it ends up as an ammo saver or occasional "get out of dodge" help, which cloak beats by a mile.
Anyways,all subjective.
#90
Posté 10 février 2010 - 03:57
finc.loki
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Argh, double post....
Modifié par finc.loki, 10 février 2010 - 03:57 .
#91
Posté 10 février 2010 - 04:04
Murmillos
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Its a single player game.. its fine.
But damn.. lol..
And people say Adepts are fine... :/
But damn.. lol..
And people say Adepts are fine... :/
#92
Posté 10 février 2010 - 04:37
lessthanjake9
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WillieStyle wrote...
Adrenaline Rush is the best ability in the game.
I suppose this could be argued. For instance, let's compare it to an ability that people really think is great: Warp Ammo.
Warp Ammo gives a 50% increase to damage against all defense types (I am not sure if it does against shields or not, but let's just assume it does). So it is just a 50% increase in damage.
Let's compare that to Adrenaline Rush. Adrenaline Rush does 100% more damage when it is on. Of course, it can't be on all the time, though.
However, let's take a 5 second period of game time. Let's say a weapon shoots once a second and does 100 base damage a hit. With Warp Ammo, the weapon will do 750 damage over 5 seconds. With Adrenaline Rush, here is what will happen. Adrenaline Rush will be on for 6 seconds, which is 3 seconds of game time. During that time, there will be 3 shots for 200 damage each. There will then be 2 seconds of non-AR time, in which 200 damage will be done. Total damage will be 800. That is more than the 750 from Warp Ammo. This is a pretty good simulation of how AR will actually work in terms of damage, as with some research and such, the duration will be about 6 seconds, and the cooldown about 2 seconds, just as I had it be here.
So that is 5 seconds of game time. Therefore, both will be victim to the same amount of enemy damage during that period. However, while doing more damage, a Hardened AR will also mitigate damage done to health by 50%.
It will also allow you to get more head shots and just have better aim in general. So compared to Warp Ammo, Adrenaline Rush will do more damage, have you take less damage, and make your aim better. The only thing Warp Ammo has over it is that you do more DPS in terms of real time, though not in game time.
Thus AR > Warp Ammo. It is also pretty clearly better than Tactical Cloak in that it is better than Tactical Cloak at sniping, which is the main point of that power. The only abilities that I think can compare to Adrenaline Rush in greatness are Warp, Reave, Tech Armor, and Combat Drone. Warp and Reave just for the damage that can mostly get around cover. Tech Armor for the best defense in the game, and Combat Drone for the only ability that can directly CC enemies with defenses still up.
#93
Posté 10 février 2010 - 09:35
RiouHotaru
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Uhhh, Cloak is NOT necessarily worse than AR, because cloak lets you sneak around with impunity. Also, Infiltrators have an abusable slo-mo effect when taking sniper shots that no other class has. And you can't argue that AR lets you do the same thing, because AR has a cool-down, the sniper slo-mo does not. AR isn't necessarily the best power, but it has definite potential. I'd go so far as to argue that there is no best power.lessthanjake9 wrote...
WillieStyle wrote...
Adrenaline Rush is the best ability in the game.
I suppose this could be argued. For instance, let's compare it to an ability that people really think is great: Warp Ammo.
Warp Ammo gives a 50% increase to damage against all defense types (I am not sure if it does against shields or not, but let's just assume it does). So it is just a 50% increase in damage.
Let's compare that to Adrenaline Rush. Adrenaline Rush does 100% more damage when it is on. Of course, it can't be on all the time, though.
However, let's take a 5 second period of game time. Let's say a weapon shoots once a second and does 100 base damage a hit. With Warp Ammo, the weapon will do 750 damage over 5 seconds. With Adrenaline Rush, here is what will happen. Adrenaline Rush will be on for 6 seconds, which is 3 seconds of game time. During that time, there will be 3 shots for 200 damage each. There will then be 2 seconds of non-AR time, in which 200 damage will be done. Total damage will be 800. That is more than the 750 from Warp Ammo. This is a pretty good simulation of how AR will actually work in terms of damage, as with some research and such, the duration will be about 6 seconds, and the cooldown about 2 seconds, just as I had it be here.
So that is 5 seconds of game time. Therefore, both will be victim to the same amount of enemy damage during that period. However, while doing more damage, a Hardened AR will also mitigate damage done to health by 50%.
It will also allow you to get more head shots and just have better aim in general. So compared to Warp Ammo, Adrenaline Rush will do more damage, have you take less damage, and make your aim better. The only thing Warp Ammo has over it is that you do more DPS in terms of real time, though not in game time.
Thus AR > Warp Ammo. It is also pretty clearly better than Tactical Cloak in that it is better than Tactical Cloak at sniping, which is the main point of that power. The only abilities that I think can compare to Adrenaline Rush in greatness are Warp, Reave, Tech Armor, and Combat Drone. Warp and Reave just for the damage that can mostly get around cover. Tech Armor for the best defense in the game, and Combat Drone for the only ability that can directly CC enemies with defenses still up.
#94
Posté 10 février 2010 - 09:54
RamsenC
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Anyone notice that AR removes the recoil of the Revenant. Makes it much better outside the fact you are getting the damage boost.
#95
Posté 10 février 2010 - 10:06
matt654321
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RamsenC wrote...
Anyone notice that AR removes the recoil of the Revenant. Makes it much better outside the fact you are getting the damage boost.
That's been known for a while. It also helps its poor accuracy. AR + Revenant has a lot of synergy. I'm not sure it's worth passing up the Geth Pulse Rifle + Widow combo, though.
#96
Posté 10 février 2010 - 10:36
RamsenC
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It's news to me, but I'm not much of a soldier player (Vanguard :x). With the accuracy upgrade and AR the Revenant is awesome in most situations. Anything outside that range just snipe with the Viper.
Normally I'd say go with Vindicator, but AR changes that for me.
Normally I'd say go with Vindicator, but AR changes that for me.
#97
Posté 21 février 2010 - 03:50
CLime
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Apologies for the thread necro. Came across this in a link on the Adrenaline Rush discussion page on the Wiki, thought there was a bit more to be said on the topic.
Emphasis mine. This is a bit misleading overall, and the bolded part is just false. It's true that in nominal terms (that is, from the player's perspective, not adjusting for time dilation), while AR is active you recieves less damage than when it's not, even without any damage reduction. It's also true that the greater the time dilation, all else equal, the lower the DPS received, again in nomain terms.
In real time (that is, from the game's perspective, i.e. the perspective that includes rate of fire, movement speed, reload time, and pretty much everything else relevant besides aiming), time dilation has no effect on DPS received.
Simple example: Say Shepard is standing in open terrain getting shot at by an enemy, and is taking 100 damage per second. Using Hardened AR, the game stretches 2.5 second of real time oiver 5 seconds of nominal time, and the enemy's rate of fire is slowed to 50% of its real value to match, so before damage reduction Shepard takes 50 damage per nominal second, or 250 damage over the duration. With Heightened AR, assuming I understand it correctly, the game stretches 1.5 seconds of real time over 5 seconds of nominal time, and the enemy's rate of fire is slowed to 30% of its real value, so Shepard takes 30 damage per nominal second, or 150 damage over the duration.
Yet, in real time, or from the perspective of the enemy and everyone else who doesn't perceive the time stretching, Shepard is still taking 100 damage per second. If the player can reload X times or run Y meters before dying without any AR usage, ignoring damage reduction, AR won't allow you to reload more or run further. Using Heightened AR, assuming no cooldown adjustments, the player
dilates 1.5 real seconds, then experiences 3 seconds normally, then
dilates 1.5 more real seconds, etc. Over 99 real seconds Shepard takes 9900
damage, regardless of whether the player peceives that as 99 seconds with no ARs, or 176 seconds with 22 ARs, or anything in between. If you're not fighting back and thus not taking
advantage ofthe damage increase, Heightened AR has no effect on real survivability. 9900/9900 = 100%
Of course, Hardened AR has 50% damage reduction tacked on, so the player actually does take less damage in real terms. Further, the real time spent in AR is longer with Hardened than with Heightened, as has been established. Cycling Hardened AR once takes 5.5 seconds of real time. Using AR the maximum of 18 times over the same 99 seconds will cause the player to experience 144 seconds of nominal time (81% of 176). Over the same 99 real seconds, Shepard has Hardened AR active for 45 seconds. If all damage is taken as health damage, Shepard takes 5400 damage outside AR, and 2250 damage in it, for a total of 7650 damage, or 77.3% of 9900, for a real reduction in damage of 22.7%, i.e (damage reduction in AR) * (real time spent in AR)/(total real time), or 50% * 2.5/5.5. I use 99 seconds because it divides evenly over 4.5 and 5.5 seconds (the period of each version AR, or their real durations plus the three second cooldown), but obviously the 22.7% damage reduction will be constant over any multiple of 4.5 seconds of only health damage, with any remainder increasing net damage reduction by a small amount.
If Shepard has 9900 health (for the sake of argument), and the player spams AR as much as possible, with Heightened AR Shepard will survive for 99 real or 176 nominal seconds, while with Hardened AR Shepard will survive for 128 real or 186 nominal seconds.
If we follow the example quoted, damage is inflicted to both shields and health, so to remain consistent Shepard would have 4950 of each, and the damage reduction would only apply to health. Heightened AR Shep still survives for 99/176, while Hardened AR Shepard survives for 113/165. The lower the ratio of health damage to total damage taken, the less Hardened AR will increase survivability. However, there is no point at which Heightened AR will have any effect on real survivability, not counting for offensive ability (where Hardened also has the advantage anyway). If you only examine health damage, Hardened will always give you at least 29% more time to do what you need to do.
TL;DR Version: If you're in a situation where you've taken some damage and are running for cover, but you're going to die before you get there, Heightened AR won't have made a difference. You'll die at the exact same spot as you would with AR rank 1-3 or no AR at all, it will just make the time you spend running there seem longer. Hardened AR is the only version that actually gives you a chance of making it.
Food for Thought: The Champion evolution of Combat Mastery lengthens power durations by 15%. How would this affect survivability with Hardened and DPS with either version, in real terms?
lessthanjake9 wrote...
3. LASTLY, though is that
while Heightened will add less extra damage over its duration than
normal AR, you will also get hit a lot less during that period of time.
If you are getting shot while Adrenaline Rushing, then you will take
66.67% less damage during a Heightened AR than a normal AR. Hardened AR
partially makes up for this by making you take 50% less health damage
while its on. However, that is not shield damage, and even when you are
down to health, you will still be taking less damage with Heightened.
So
let's say you take a lot of damage during a rush. Roughly speaking,
your character's defense will be about half health and half shields
(assuming you dont have something like Geth Shield Boost). With
Hardened AR, you will take normal damage on shields, and -50% damage on
health. Lets assume you have 300 health and 300 shields. This means
that you will die if 900 total damage is done to you (300 for shields
and 600 to take down the health) during the Adrenaline Rush. With
Heightened AR, you will die if 600 damage is done to you during the AR.
HOWEVER, with the extra time dilation, your damage taken will
dramatically decrease. So let's say the Hardened AR user takes 900
damage over those 5 seconds of AR and dies. With time dilated more, you
would only take 540 damage during the rush and would still be alive.
This effect is even greater comparatively if you have Geth Shield
Boost/Barrier/Fortification. This is because it increases the amount of
your defenses that arent affected by Hardened AR.
...
- Heightened AR may result in less damage over its duration than Hardened AR. However, it also results in less damage taken, despite Hardened ARs added bonus. Depending on what equipment you have and what bonus talent you decide to get, I believe you will take 10-25% less damage over the duration of a Heightened AR than a Hardened AR.
Emphasis mine. This is a bit misleading overall, and the bolded part is just false. It's true that in nominal terms (that is, from the player's perspective, not adjusting for time dilation), while AR is active you recieves less damage than when it's not, even without any damage reduction. It's also true that the greater the time dilation, all else equal, the lower the DPS received, again in nomain terms.
In real time (that is, from the game's perspective, i.e. the perspective that includes rate of fire, movement speed, reload time, and pretty much everything else relevant besides aiming), time dilation has no effect on DPS received.
Simple example: Say Shepard is standing in open terrain getting shot at by an enemy, and is taking 100 damage per second. Using Hardened AR, the game stretches 2.5 second of real time oiver 5 seconds of nominal time, and the enemy's rate of fire is slowed to 50% of its real value to match, so before damage reduction Shepard takes 50 damage per nominal second, or 250 damage over the duration. With Heightened AR, assuming I understand it correctly, the game stretches 1.5 seconds of real time over 5 seconds of nominal time, and the enemy's rate of fire is slowed to 30% of its real value, so Shepard takes 30 damage per nominal second, or 150 damage over the duration.
Yet, in real time, or from the perspective of the enemy and everyone else who doesn't perceive the time stretching, Shepard is still taking 100 damage per second. If the player can reload X times or run Y meters before dying without any AR usage, ignoring damage reduction, AR won't allow you to reload more or run further. Using Heightened AR, assuming no cooldown adjustments, the player
dilates 1.5 real seconds, then experiences 3 seconds normally, then
dilates 1.5 more real seconds, etc. Over 99 real seconds Shepard takes 9900
damage, regardless of whether the player peceives that as 99 seconds with no ARs, or 176 seconds with 22 ARs, or anything in between. If you're not fighting back and thus not taking
advantage ofthe damage increase, Heightened AR has no effect on real survivability. 9900/9900 = 100%
Of course, Hardened AR has 50% damage reduction tacked on, so the player actually does take less damage in real terms. Further, the real time spent in AR is longer with Hardened than with Heightened, as has been established. Cycling Hardened AR once takes 5.5 seconds of real time. Using AR the maximum of 18 times over the same 99 seconds will cause the player to experience 144 seconds of nominal time (81% of 176). Over the same 99 real seconds, Shepard has Hardened AR active for 45 seconds. If all damage is taken as health damage, Shepard takes 5400 damage outside AR, and 2250 damage in it, for a total of 7650 damage, or 77.3% of 9900, for a real reduction in damage of 22.7%, i.e (damage reduction in AR) * (real time spent in AR)/(total real time), or 50% * 2.5/5.5. I use 99 seconds because it divides evenly over 4.5 and 5.5 seconds (the period of each version AR, or their real durations plus the three second cooldown), but obviously the 22.7% damage reduction will be constant over any multiple of 4.5 seconds of only health damage, with any remainder increasing net damage reduction by a small amount.
If Shepard has 9900 health (for the sake of argument), and the player spams AR as much as possible, with Heightened AR Shepard will survive for 99 real or 176 nominal seconds, while with Hardened AR Shepard will survive for 128 real or 186 nominal seconds.
If we follow the example quoted, damage is inflicted to both shields and health, so to remain consistent Shepard would have 4950 of each, and the damage reduction would only apply to health. Heightened AR Shep still survives for 99/176, while Hardened AR Shepard survives for 113/165. The lower the ratio of health damage to total damage taken, the less Hardened AR will increase survivability. However, there is no point at which Heightened AR will have any effect on real survivability, not counting for offensive ability (where Hardened also has the advantage anyway). If you only examine health damage, Hardened will always give you at least 29% more time to do what you need to do.
TL;DR Version: If you're in a situation where you've taken some damage and are running for cover, but you're going to die before you get there, Heightened AR won't have made a difference. You'll die at the exact same spot as you would with AR rank 1-3 or no AR at all, it will just make the time you spend running there seem longer. Hardened AR is the only version that actually gives you a chance of making it.
Food for Thought: The Champion evolution of Combat Mastery lengthens power durations by 15%. How would this affect survivability with Hardened and DPS with either version, in real terms?
Modifié par CLime, 21 février 2010 - 03:58 .
#98
Posté 21 février 2010 - 04:04
z4t001
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warp ammo + any gun + 75% time dilation = fun times
#99
Posté 21 février 2010 - 04:08
Athenau
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TL;DR Version: If you're in a situation where you've taken some damage and are running for cover, but you're going to die before you get there, Heightened AR won't have made a difference. You'll die at the exact same spot as you would with AR rank 1-3 or no AR at all, it will just make the time you spend running there seem longer. Hardened AR is the only version that actually gives you a chance of making it.
This isn't true. While the distance you travel over the course of the adrenaline rush is the same, in terms of _game time_ heightened adrenaline rush will get you there in 1.5 game seconds and hardened will get you there in 2.5 game seconds. Your relative speed in heightened is 3.33x while only 2x in hardened. Since enemies take a non-zero amount of time to track and acquire targets, going faster can be quite a noticeable advantage.
And it certainly does make a difference compared to NO adrenaline rush, seriously, have you used the skill?
Adrenaline rush + sprint is the closest thing the soldier has to a get out of jail free button.
not counting for offensive ability (where Hardened also has the advantage anyway)
This is wrong too. Heightened 140% damage bonus over 1.5 game seconds, 3 second cooldown, average bonus of 46.67%. Hardened 100% damage bonus over 2.5 game seconds, 3 second cooldown, average bonus of 45.45%. No significant difference between the two.
#100
Posté 21 février 2010 - 04:54
CLime
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Athenau wrote...
TL;DR Version: If you're in a situation where you've taken some damage and are running for cover, but you're going to die before you get there, Heightened AR won't have made a difference. You'll die at the exact same spot as you would with AR rank 1-3 or no AR at all, it will just make the time you spend running there seem longer. Hardened AR is the only version that actually gives you a chance of making it.
This isn't true. While the distance you travel over the course of the adrenaline rush is the same, in terms of _game time_ heightened adrenaline rush will get you there in 1.5 game seconds and hardened will get you there in 2.5 game seconds. Your relative speed in heightened is 3.33x while only 2x in hardened. Since enemies take a non-zero amount of time to track and acquire targets, going faster can be quite a noticeable advantage.
And it certainly does make a difference compared to NO adrenaline rush, seriously, have you used the skill?
Adrenaline rush + sprint is the closest thing the soldier has to a get out of jail free button.
Alright, I'll eat my words on this one. I know Shepard always runs at normal speed inside AR, but I thought Soldiers had a set time dilation factor while storming that trumped AR's. Maybe I just imagined that, though I've definitely noticed voice slowdown during storm outside AR.
So, higher real speed is a point in Heightened's favor, though your health bar will still take you further in Hardened due to the damage reduction.
Athenau wrote...
This is wrong too. Heightened 140% damage bonus over 1.5 game seconds, 3 second cooldown, average bonus of 46.67%. Hardened 100% damage bonus over 2.5 game seconds, 3 second cooldown, average bonus of 45.45%. No significant difference between the two.not counting for offensive ability (where Hardened also has the advantage anyway)
With Hardened you also spend more time in AR overall, meaning more time to line up shots. If you're some shooter prodigy and always make headshots, time dilation or no, then yes, they're about equal. In practical terms, though, I think it's a safe assumption that for a good, but not prodigal player, spending 45% of the time in 50% slowdown is more useful than spending 33% of the time in 70% slowdown in terms of net change from misses to hits and from hits to headshots. That's what I mean by "offensive ability."
