147 réponses à ce sujet

[Caz Neerg]

Freestorm Skinn wrote...

A lot of you are missing that he wants to save Humanity for himself to lord over, and he doesn't care how many humans he'll sacrifice to achieve Humanity's ascension -- with him at the top lording over them.

He's a meglomaniac.  In the books, it's more obvious that he enjoys having power and he enjoys using that power to take revenge on people who cross him.  

So you'd rather have the Reapers kill everyone than humanity rule the galaxy with the Illusive Man at it's head?

[Remaix]

Caz Neerg wrote...

Freestorm Skinn wrote...

A lot of you are missing that he wants to save Humanity for himself to lord over, and he doesn't care how many humans he'll sacrifice to achieve Humanity's ascension -- with him at the top lording over them.

He's a meglomaniac.  In the books, it's more obvious that he enjoys having power and he enjoys using that power to take revenge on people who cross him.  

So you'd rather have the Reapers kill everyone than humanity rule the galaxy with the Illusive Man at it's head?

This is assuming Cerberus and the Illusive Man are the only ones capable of dealing with the Reapers.

[SurfaceBeneath]

Honestly, the Illusive Man is the best villain Bioware's ever done. Whereas most villains are menacing and confrontational, Illusive Man is ambiguous and uncertain. While other villains are set up as an obstacle to overcome, the Illusive Man is truly insidious because Shepard... and possibly all life in the galaxy by extension, needs him.

[Irx]

The whole game he seemed to me more of a "grey" type character, since both his dialogs and "mission accomplished" comments never showed him as a villain. But if you get the renegade ending, and somehow *every* member of your team tells you it is a bad thing, plus the "evil" final dialog with IM - feels like BioWare tells us "HA HA HA got you!" ~.~"

[Freestorm Skinn]

Caz Neerg wrote...

Freestorm Skinn wrote...

A lot of you are missing that he wants to save Humanity for himself to lord over, and he doesn't care how many humans he'll sacrifice to achieve Humanity's ascension -- with him at the top lording over them.

He's a meglomaniac.  In the books, it's more obvious that he enjoys having power and he enjoys using that power to take revenge on people who cross him.  

So you'd rather have the Reapers kill everyone than humanity rule the galaxy with the Illusive Man at it's head?

Non-argument.  It's not the Illusive Man who's going to save the galaxy.  Shepherd will.

[Katarian]

Caz Neerg wrote...

So you'd rather have the Reapers kill everyone than humanity rule the galaxy with the Illusive Man at it's head?

Actually I would. The Reapers generally just kill all advanced sapient and go away, the Illusive Man is going to do much worse then that given Cerberus' past history. The galaxy got on perfectly allright before humans and it'll get on perfectly allright if they got wiped out, along with the Turians, Asari, Salarians etc...

Plus all the info that we get that no one else is trying to stop is the Reapers is from the Illusive Man and the Council. Would the Illusive Man lie to us? Would a politician? What would make an great ending is that you fail to defeat the Reapers and the the STG come in wipe them all out and they are the heroes. Not Cerberus, not Humanity, not Shepard, show the Human race their actual place in the Galaxy. It won't happen of course because it's a game where your the hero, but it'd be more realistic.

[Asheer_Khan]

I start to think about something.

What if TIM actually lies to Shepard that only Cerberus stand between galaxy civilizations and the reapers?

Maybe Alliance and the Council do develop some sort of countermeasures but seeing Shepard as "Cerberus worker" they decide to hide that fact deep in shadow and wait to see what path Shepard will take.
And no TIM can't be trusted and please stop whit all this "He cares for humanity"crap.
All he care is to become first Human Emperor even if this will require to sacrifice thousand of victims (Palpatine also was master of deception and looks sooo good and trusted until was too late for anything).
Must i recall Cerberus related quests in ME1 including murder of Adm Kahoku (if i spell this correct) team lured at the tresher maw nest by CERBERUS placed emergency beacon and at the end murdering admiral itself, or Tumbs or jumping to ME 2 and Jack's loyalty mission.

TIM must known that Jack will want to return to that place so he could pretty much ordered altering holographic entrys and removed all hints leading Shepard to him personally (there was a hint of this when Jack say that she remembered some events different as holo entrys presented) because i seriously doubt that this theory that he didn't known what was going on there is as same plausible as snow fall forecast for middle of the Sahara, and if he doesn't known anything about this then this could be rather sad example of his "leadership" quality if he don't have a slight idea what's going on in his organization.
And after i read that message after Jack's mission i say to myself...
"Cool story bro... but i am not born yesturday...":whistle:

In my current run i decided to test something and see the results and i mean i will send files aquiring during Cerberus agent rescue mission to Alliance command and TIM can kiss my mini nuke laucher.
In my gameplay TIM is MY tool in fight of the reapers than my Shepard is his and he will deeply regret to cross my path.

Modifié par Asheer_Khan, 10 février 2010 - 11:41 .

[Exploding8]

Caz Neerg wrote...

Freestorm Skinn wrote...

A lot of you are missing that he wants to save Humanity for himself to lord over, and he doesn't care how many humans he'll sacrifice to achieve Humanity's ascension -- with him at the top lording over them.

He's a meglomaniac.  In the books, it's more obvious that he enjoys having power and he enjoys using that power to take revenge on people who cross him.  

So you'd rather have the Reapers kill everyone than humanity rule the galaxy with the Illusive Man at it's head?

So you'd be fine being ruled by a power hungry bastard who would likely sacrifice the lives of the other races so that humanity could "ascend," but the Reapers are too far of a stretch?
They gave you this option too you know <_<

[Arrtis]

TIM wont last forever.

Ensure humans to exsist and have for a time an evil overlord...look things can change but at least humans will still be there.

[CRISIS1717]

The Illusive Man is undoubtedly evil, everyone is expendable to him unless they have a use and his main goal is nothing to do with furthering humanity but everything to do with furthering Cerberus and establishing himself as ruler.

You can't look at every Cerberus mission that has hurt people and think the Illusive Man didn't know about it, and tbh I see Cerberus as a neo-Illuminati.

[dissonance-zaon]

Exploding8 wrote...

So you'd rather have the Reapers kill everyone than humanity rule the galaxy with the Illusive Man at it's head?

I'm under the impression that the Reapers were a race of organics that simply wanted to transcend. Every 50,000 years they reap other organics that are worthy of ascension (if possible) and kill off anyone else. They're now targeting humans as worthy.

The Illusive Man's ideals are very similar to that. Imagine what would happen once their ideals meet.

Of course that's all just based off a theory. Having read Ascension (and how he is in ME2), I don't find it hard to believe that he'd sell humanity out to the Reapers to "immortalize" them. Which is why I don't trust him with that Collector base.

Modifié par dissonance-zaon, 10 février 2010 - 01:12 .

[Arrtis]

TIM would ensure were human still.

[dissonance-zaon]

Arrtis wrote...

TIM would ensure were human still.

Maybe. But that's just as much of an assumption as mine.

[Arrtis]

How much can we change before were not human anymore?

[dissonance-zaon]

Arrtis wrote...

How much can we change before were not human anymore?

So long as we still look like a Terminator, I think that's good enough for TIM.

[Conway044]

WilliamShatner wrote...

Anyone who says Cerberus isn't evil hasn't played the original game.

They're future N@zis believing in the superiority of their race and experimenting/exterminating people who do not fit into their world group.

ME2 = Shepard working for N@zis.

Wait, when did Shep start working for the Turians?

[Conway044]

Remaix wrote...

Caz Neerg wrote...

Freestorm Skinn wrote...

A lot of you are missing that he wants to save Humanity for himself to lord over, and he doesn't care how many humans he'll sacrifice to achieve Humanity's ascension -- with him at the top lording over them.

He's a meglomaniac.  In the books, it's more obvious that he enjoys having power and he enjoys using that power to take revenge on people who cross him.  

So you'd rather have the Reapers kill everyone than humanity rule the galaxy with the Illusive Man at it's head?

This is assuming Cerberus and the Illusive Man are the only ones capable of dealing with the Reapers.

They do seem like the only ones who want to.  The council has spent the last 2 games working very hard to ignore the Reaper threat.  Going so far as to block Shep from trying to save the galaxy from them in ME 1.

[Remaix]

Conway044 wrote...

Remaix wrote...

Caz Neerg wrote...

Freestorm Skinn wrote...

A lot of you are missing that he wants to save Humanity for himself to lord over, and he doesn't care how many humans he'll sacrifice to achieve Humanity's ascension -- with him at the top lording over them.

He's a meglomaniac.  In the books, it's more obvious that he enjoys having power and he enjoys using that power to take revenge on people who cross him.  

So you'd rather have the Reapers kill everyone than humanity rule the galaxy with the Illusive Man at it's head?

This is assuming Cerberus and the Illusive Man are the only ones capable of dealing with the Reapers.

They do seem like the only ones who want to.  The council has spent the last 2 games working very hard to ignore the Reaper threat.  Going so far as to block Shep from trying to save the galaxy from them in ME 1.

See, there you make a mistake. I said they're not the only ones who can deal with the Reapers. I didn't say they weren't the only ones who want to. Before you think I'm backing up, I'm not. Sure, the council and, well, pretty much everyone but Cerberus don't seem too interested in helping, yes. That doesn't mean they cannot be convinced.

[Arrtis]

Conway044 wrote...

WilliamShatner wrote...

Anyone who says Cerberus isn't evil hasn't played the original game.

They're future N@zis believing in the superiority of their race and experimenting/exterminating people who do not fit into their world group.

ME2 = Shepard working for N@zis.

Wait, when did Shep start working for the Turians?

I think in ME 1 when you worked for the council

[-Syphon-]

People are pretty quick to consider that he can't be x-y-z because he's so pro his "own race" : read humans.

He might not even be human. I'm pretty sure this would've been brought up 800 million times, but it's not exactly a necessity.

What if he's a Prothean or even a rogue Reaper. There's a fairly big turn of events that would make him actually good, Severus Snape style. I mean, I'm pretty sure if he was an Reaper/Ex-Reaper/Whatever he'd be pretty cashed up, so he'd be able to spend any amount of money on rebuilding ol Shep. And he'd have his hands on some pretty intense technology.

Caveat is I haven't read any of the books and know little about what is actually required for him to be a certain race (Protheans abilities to look like whatever, same with Reapers).

I mean, you often see throughout ME2 that the dude you BURN at the end is always "assuming control" of other creatures/collectors. Why couldn't a reaper at least appear in a form similar to the one TIM does?

Ok, that was a Collector-Prothean, as far as I know now, but meh. Possibilities still there

Modifié par -Syphon-, 10 février 2010 - 03:09 .

[Caz Neerg]

Katarian wrote...

Caz Neerg wrote...

So you'd rather have the Reapers kill everyone than humanity rule the galaxy with the Illusive Man at it's head?

Actually I would. The Reapers generally just kill all advanced sapient and go away, the Illusive Man is going to do much worse then that given Cerberus' past history. The galaxy got on perfectly allright before humans and it'll get on perfectly allright if they got wiped out, along with the Turians, Asari, Salarians etc...

Plus all the info that we get that no one else is trying to stop is the Reapers is from the Illusive Man and the Council. Would the Illusive Man lie to us? Would a politician? What would make an great ending is that you fail to defeat the Reapers and the the STG come in wipe them all out and they are the heroes. Not Cerberus, not Humanity, not Shepard, show the Human race their actual place in the Galaxy. It won't happen of course because it's a game where your the hero, but it'd be more realistic.

Why would anybody care whether or not "the galaxy" exists in some sense if they are all dead?  What is with all the self-hate for your own race? Why is a non-human being a hero inherently more realistic than a human getting the job done?

Exploding8 wrote...

Caz Neerg wrote...

So you'd rather have the Reapers kill everyone than humanity rule the galaxy with the Illusive Man at it's head?

So you'd be fine being ruled by a power hungry bastard who would likely sacrifice the lives of the other races so that humanity could "ascend," but the Reapers are too far of a stretch?
They gave you this option too you know [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/angry.png[/smilie]

Alive > Dead.  And being a human, yes, I would prefer a galaxy with humanity in charge to a galaxy with everyone dead.  That is just common sense.

Modifié par Caz Neerg, 10 février 2010 - 05:45 .

[jtheplay]

He had Admiral Kohoku killed. He approved a variety of inhumane experiments. And he kidnaps borderline autistic children. He's evil.



It's tough to accept the idea that he's morally gray - there isn't a lot of gray area in his goals. He is black and white. He'll do anything (absolutely anything) to advance human interest. I don't see that as gray area. It's still an interesting dynamic to force Shep (the player) to work with him, but hardly gray area.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Humanity desperately needs an Illusive Man these days. I find it funny that people are willing to look at a vigilante (Garrus), an asssassin (Thane), a killing machine (Grunt), a fanatical zealot (Samara), a bio-weapon scientist (Mordin) as "good". But they find it hard to look at the guy sitting in a dark room and smoking cigarettes as even "grey".

Bioware has been bombarding us with realism since ME1 and people still need to see things in black and white. Just pitiful.

[Caz Neerg]

jtheplay wrote...

He had Admiral Kohoku killed. He approved a variety of inhumane experiments. And he kidnaps borderline autistic children. He's evil.

It's tough to accept the idea that he's morally gray - there isn't a lot of gray area in his goals. He is black and white. He'll do anything (absolutely anything) to advance human interest. I don't see that as gray area. It's still an interesting dynamic to force Shep (the player) to work with him, but hardly gray area.

He isn't anywhere close to "black and white."  Used in reference to morality, black means always bad, and white means always good.  That isn't reality, or well written fiction.  Without Shepard, the Reapers win, and without the Illusive Man, Shepard is dead, so even with all the things Cerberus has done that some people frown on, it is clear from the very start of the game that the Illusive Man fails to fit into a simplistic and juvenile moral scale that seeks to classify everyone as either good or evil, without flavor or nuance.

[SL22]

He's a man who is willing to do anything to secure humanities place in the stars, he's more chaotic neutral than evil.