147 réponses à ce sujet

[Caz Neerg]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Humanity desperately needs an Illusive Man these days. I find it funny that people are willing to look at a vigilante (Garrus), an asssassin (Thane), a killing machine (Grunt), a fanatical zealot (Samara), a bio-weapon scientist (Mordin) as "good". But they find it hard to look at the guy sitting in a dark room and smoking cigarettes as even "grey".
Bioware has been bombarding us with realism since ME1 and people still need to see things in black and white. Just pitiful.

They are probably thinking of Humanity as a stand-in for America, and the council races as a stand-in for the "global community," so Illusive Man being pro-human makes him pro-America, and it is trendy these days to hate America, so there we are...

[Justin2k]

Well he's essentially a dictator ala Bin Laden or Hitler.



He believes what he is doing is right, although his methods are wrong. He believes he is doing what he has to for the good of the galaxy.



Interesting character. Evil but without intending to be, and not to everyone. People such as the ships cook and Kelly actually look up to him as a saviour.

[Ulicus]

There's no such thing as evil. Doesn't mean the Illusive Man isn't worthy of death several times over, because he is... but that doesn't mean I'd refuse to share a scotch with him. I'd totally have a scotch with him. And a smoke.

I will point out, that despite this, the blurb for Retribution flat out refers to the experiments of Cerberus as "evil".

Modifié par Ulicus, 10 février 2010 - 06:05 .

[Justin2k]

Well he's essentially a dictator ala Bin Laden or Hitler.



He believes what he is doing is right, although his methods are wrong. He believes he is doing what he has to for the good of the galaxy.



Interesting character. Evil but without intending to be, and not to everyone. People such as the ships cook and Kelly actually look up to him as a saviour.

[raist747]

The Illusive Man stirkes me as a model Lawful Evil example.

[Ulicus]

If Bin Laden was a dictator he wouldn't be so hard to find.

[aksoileau]

TIM is a renegade Magneto. Not necessarily evil, just a big follower of Machiavelli.

[Caz Neerg]

aksoileau wrote...

TIM is a renegade Magneto. Not necessarily evil, just a big follower of Machiavelli.

Good comparison.  Especially since Magneto is the greatest hero in the X-Men franchise.

[Darth_Ultima]

I think that the Illusive Man will do anything to further his goals. Whether his goal is the advancement of humanity or the domination of the galaxy under human rule I do not know.

[Asheer_Khan]

TIM remembered me pretty much Kreia from Kotor 2.
She was pretty light sided (assuming that Exile followed Light Side path) when comes to teachings but behind Exile's back she was plain and simple Sith in disguise.
And after analizing some circumstances surrounding Council reactions i start to think about one plausible option.

They (and especially Anderson) known that Anderson's office might be under Cerberus surveilance so they start to play "You need a professional help Shepard" role in order to convince TIM that they will not react and of course drag off Collectors attention from still repaired Citadel before Council forces strength will be reestablish to pre Sovieregin attack level.... so in other word both sides start to "lets cheat other camp" game whit Shepard as Ace card.

Modifié par Asheer_Khan, 10 février 2010 - 06:29 .

[Caz Neerg]

Asheer_Khan wrote...
And after analizing some circumstances surrounding Council reactions i start to think about one plausible option.

They (and especially Anderson) known that Anderson's office might be under Cerberus surveilance so they start to play "You need a professional help Shepard" role in order to convince TIM that they will not react and of course drag off Collectors attention from still repaired Citadel before Council forces strength will be reestablish to pre Sovieregin attack level.... so in other word both sides start to "lets cheat other camp" game whit Shepard as Ace card.

Riiiiiight... because the Council in ME1 was soooo reasonable...

[Jayce]

I guess wether he's evil depends on what your interpretation of evil is. It's pretty clear to me from both the books and the games that he's is an unethical meglomaniac.



Talk to EDI after the collectors attack the Normandy, she'll tell you quite frankly that the Illusive man likes to personally direct all the active Cerberus cells and that there are only a few active at any one time because he couldn't cope with the required mulitasking if there were more.



Lets look at Cerberus' track list shall we.



*They've deliberately tricked the Alliance into establishing a colony on Akuze so they could get a first hand look at Thresher Maws in action. Then experimented on the survivors.



*They've done highly illegal experimentation on biotic children to create supersoldiers....twice.



*Assassinated politicians and military officers who might oppose them.



*Intoduced indoctrination devices onto Chasca colony, again just to see what happens.



*Piggy backed onto Saren's Binary-Helix work with the rachni to create a Ceberus controlled Rachni-army, only for it to bite Cerberus (and several unfortunate Alliance Recce teams) in the ass.



Is this an organization you'd trust with whatever the hell Reaper/Collecter tech is on that base?

[Caz Neerg]

Lets look at Cerberus' track list shall we.

Sounds like a fantastic idea.

*They've deliberately tricked the Alliance into establishing a colony on Akuze so they could get a first hand look at Thresher Maws in action. Then experimented on the survivors.

Without knowing what data they managed to gather, and how it can be applied, we can't fairly judge whether or not this action was worth the cost in lives.

*They've done highly illegal experimentation on biotic children to create supersoldiers....twice.

And look at how useful Jack was on our mission.  Thank you Cerberus, for your foresight.

*Assassinated politicians and military officers who might oppose them.

Politician(s) and officer(s)?  Kahoku is one, and only died because he wasn't minding his own business.  Who are the others?

*Intoduced indoctrination devices onto Chasca colony, again just to see what happens.

How else are they going to test the effects of indoctrination and discover how to combat it?

*Piggy backed onto Saren's Binary-Helix work with the rachni to create a Ceberus controlled Rachni-army, only for it to bite Cerberus (and several unfortunate Alliance Recce teams) in the ass.

Are you saying a loyal army of Rachni drones wouldn't be useful?  You would rather if humanity had to fight a war, that humans have to die?  Are the drones even sentient, or just barely functional extensions of the will of the queen?

Is this an organization you'd trust with whatever the hell Reaper/Collecter tech is on that base?

I'm human, and if Cerberus actually existed would probably be submitting my resume, so yes, I'd trust them.  At least more than I would any other group in the Mass Effect universe.

Modifié par Caz Neerg, 10 février 2010 - 06:57 .

[Katarian]

Caz Neerg wrote...

Why would anybody care whether or not "the galaxy" exists in some sense if they are all dead?  What is with all the self-hate for your own race? Why is a non-human being a hero inherently more realistic than a human getting the job done?

The non-human being the hero makes more sense as there are races that have been flying around the Galaxy for thousands of years before humans, they have better resources, intelligence and bigger militaries. They are much more capable of stopping any threat then humans. It's not a hatred of the human race, it is being able to see beyond mankind being the centre of the universe.

I'm sure that if you ended up living under a leader such as the Illusive Man you'd not be very happy about. Cerberus might be pro-human but they have a record of experimenting on humans as well as aliens. TIM is only really interested in helping the humans that agree with him or are useful to him not the entire race.

[silentstephi]

TIM is a zealot, and humanity is his religion. I doubt, HIGHLY, that he'd ever sell out humanity to the Reapers, ever.



He's a necessary evil if the galaxy is going to survive the cycle.

[Ulicus]

Jayce F wrote...

*They've deliberately tricked the Alliance into establishing a colony on Akuze so they could get a first hand look at Thresher Maws in action. Then experimented on the survivors.

* They've also erased the Sole Survivor Shepard's recollection of having uncovered this, which is even worse! 

[Caz Neerg]

Katarian wrote...

Caz Neerg wrote...

Why would anybody care whether or not "the galaxy" exists in some sense if they are all dead?  What is with all the self-hate for your own race? Why is a non-human being a hero inherently more realistic than a human getting the job done?

The non-human being the hero makes more sense as there are races that have been flying around the Galaxy for thousands of years before humans, they have better resources, intelligence and bigger militaries. They are much more capable of stopping any threat then humans. It's not a hatred of the human race, it is being able to see beyond mankind being the centre of the universe.

I'm sure that if you ended up living under a leader such as the Illusive Man you'd not be very happy about. Cerberus might be pro-human but they have a record of experimenting on humans as well as aliens. TIM is only really interested in helping the humans that agree with him or are useful to him not the entire race.

I do agree with him, so looks like I would be safe.  The Illusive Man is too smart to waste resources, and people who can appreciate his vision are a valuable resource.  As to your argument about the other races being in space longer, so what?  Humanity has caught up technologically, and if you listen to the news reports in ME2, has the largest and most powerful fleet, due partially to the alien fleets being largely destroyed by Sovereign, even if you saved the Council.  According to your logic, The United States should be one of the least powerful nations on Earth, because it hasn't been around as long as a lot of the European and/or Asian nations.  Flawed reasoning at best.

[Asheer_Khan]

Caz Neerg wrote...

Asheer_Khan wrote...
And after analizing some circumstances surrounding Council reactions i start to think about one plausible option.

They (and especially Anderson) known that Anderson's office might be under Cerberus surveilance so they start to play "You need a professional help Shepard" role in order to convince TIM that they will not react and of course drag off Collectors attention from still repaired Citadel before Council forces strength will be reestablish to pre Sovieregin attack level.... so in other word both sides start to "lets cheat other camp" game whit Shepard as Ace card.

Riiiiiight... because the Council in ME1 was soooo reasonable...

Tell me, how you will react when suddenly member of a species which just become a member of intergalactic society (what is 100 years in compare to thousand years of egsistence such civilizations like Asari) come to you and say that galaxy is on the edge of extinction because some hyper advance cyber race decided that it's comming time for thier annual harvest fiesta without any serious proofs backed up that claims?

Of course there was one evidence which might confirm this but that evidence belongs to already indoctrinated rouge spectre and there was not a slight chance that he will confirm that.
Beside somehow i understand thier course of action in ME 2 and camouflaged whole Sovieregin part of the attack because if they will reveal truth this might caused giant panic across entire Citadel controlled space.

Right now Councill and Alliance simply need that "wait and see" tactic because of galactic stability reason BUT there is NO indication that Alliance, Turians and Asari shipyards don't work at four shifts and produce bigger and more powerfull ships in order to create huge interstellar armada to fight repaers.
By the way if you pay attention on codex entrys you will notice pop ups about new ship classes (Battleships (imagine armada of Ascension class ships:o)  and Carriers) when in ME 1 all what was presented was Cruisers so this was a hint that Alliance maybe do prepare for final fight.

Modifié par Asheer_Khan, 10 février 2010 - 07:35 .

[apk117]

To quote Captain Malcolm Reynolds from Firefly, "Nothing worse than a monster who thinks he's right with God."

Modifié par apk117, 10 février 2010 - 07:41 .

[Katarian]

Caz Neerg wrote...
As to your argument about the other races being in space longer, so
what?  Humanity has caught up technologically, and if you listen to the
news reports in ME2, has the largest and most powerful fleet, due
partially to the alien fleets being largely destroyed by Sovereign,
even if you saved the Council.  According to your logic, The United
States should be one of the least powerful nations on Earth, because it
hasn't been around as long as a lot of the European and/or Asian
nations.  Flawed reasoning at best.

Have you read the back story? Humans have only been part of the Galaxy for 30 years. The Asari and Salarians
have been flying around for over 3000 years, the Turians for 1200.
The Alliance doesn't have the biggest fleet, it has most ships in the
fleet around the Citadel. The Turians still have 39 Dreadnaughts
compared the Humans 7-8. In a proper war the humans would of been completely overwhelmed. You actually get your weapons and shields upgraded by Turains and Quarians, they are still ahead of humans technologically. If you want to compare humanity to the USA then a good time period to visualize would be just after they gained Independence, not the USA now.

Caz Neerg wrote...

I do agree with him, so looks like I would be safe.

Looking forward to your shift working on the "dead" Reaper are you? How about being an unwitting test subject for spores from the Thorian? Guarding or experimenting on biotic children?

[Haasth]

Read the novel, loved it.

Played the game, loved it.



I think they did a brilliant job on TIM.

[Caz Neerg]

Now that Cerberus knows that dead Reapers can still indoctrinate, they will be smart enough to rotate crews to ensure that nobody is near the dead human reaper long enough to get indoctrinated. And there is zero evidence that the Illusive Man has ever experimented on Cerberus employees against their will. The test subjects were random peons from backwater colonies.



And you don't get things upgraded by "the" Turians or "the" Quarians, but by a Turian and a Quarian, and Cerberus now has access to the specs for that tech. As long as you have the capacity to understand and replicate a technological development, it isn't relevant who came up with it first.

[Tankfriend]

Now that Cerberus knows that dead Reapers can still
indoctrinate, they will be smart enough to rotate crews to ensure that
nobody is near the dead human reaper long enough to get
indoctrinated.

I'd go so far as to say that the indoctrination precisely is the reason why Cerberus will not give too much thought about rotating personnel unless they are very important to their actions. On the contrary, it could be very well possible that Cerberus will force people to stay inside the derelict Reaper to get some "test subjects" for researching indoctrination.

Caz Neerg wrote...
The test subjects were random peons from backwater colonies.

How exactly is that supposed to shed any positive light on Cerberus' experiments?
Just because someone is not from some important and prestigious colony does not mean that they are in any way less entitled to physical and psychological well-being or any less a "full" member of their respective species.

Modifié par Tankfriend, 10 février 2010 - 08:10 .

[Jayce]

[quote]Caz Neerg wrote...


[quote]
*They've deliberately tricked the Alliance into establishing a colony on Akuze so they could get a first hand look at Thresher Maws in action. Then experimented on the survivors.
[/quote]
Without knowing what data they managed to gather, and how it can be applied, we can't fairly judge whether or not this action was worth the cost in lives.[/quote]

Yes cause feeding people to thresher maws is an oh so noble endeavour.

[quote][quote]
*They've done highly illegal experimentation on biotic children to create supersoldiers....twice.
[/quote]
And look at how useful Jack was on our mission.  Thank you Cerberus, for your foresight.
[/quote]

Yep cause killing lots of children to produce a single sociopathic loon was a great result.

[quote][quote]
*Assassinated politicians and military officers who might oppose them.
[/quote]
Politician(s) and officer(s)?  Kahoku is one, and only died because he wasn't minding his own business.  Who are the others?[/quote]

Read Asscension.

[quote][quote]
*Intoduced indoctrination devices onto Chasca colony, again just to see what happens.
[/quote]
How else are they going to test the effects of indoctrination and discover how to combat it?[/quote]

Seriously?

[quote][quote]
*Piggy backed onto Saren's Binary-Helix work with the rachni to create a Ceberus controlled Rachni-army, only for it to bite Cerberus (and several unfortunate Alliance Recce teams) in the ass.
[/quote]
Are you saying a loyal army of Rachni drones wouldn't be useful?  You would rather if humanity had to fight a war, that humans have to die?  Are the drones even sentient, or just barely functional extensions of the will of the queen?[/quote]
Scizophrenic much? First its ok to sacrifice humans for the 'greater good' then it's all about sparing human lives?


[quote][quote]
Is this an organization you'd trust with whatever the hell Reaper/Collecter tech is on that base?[/quote]
I'm human, and if Cerberus actually existed would probably be submitting my resume, so yes, I'd trust them.  At least more than I would any other group in the Mass Effect universe.

[/quote][/quote]

Then I for one I'm mightily pleased they don't exist and even moreso that they can't offer employment to sociopathic loons like you.

Modifié par Jayce F, 10 février 2010 - 08:22 .

[Caz Neerg]

Tankfriend wrote...

Now that Cerberus knows that dead Reapers can still indoctrinate, they will be smart enough to rotate crews to ensure that nobody is near the dead human reaper long enough to get indoctrinated.

I'd go so far as to say that the indoctrination precisely is the reason why Cerberus will not give too much thought about rotating personnel unless they are very important to their actions. On the contrary, it could be very well possible that Cerberus will force people to stay inside the derelict Reaper to get some "test subjects" for researching indoctrination.

Caz Neerg wrote...
The test subjects were random peons from backwater colonies.

How exactly is that supposed to shed any positive light on Cerberus' experiments? Just because someone is not from some important and prestigious colony does not mean that they are in any way less entitled to physical and psychological well-being or any less a "full" member of their respective species.

Clearly they might force some people to stay on the station to study indoctrination, but not valuable scientists.  Those will get rotated.  They can buy violent prisoners from outfits like Purgatory and use them as test subjects.

"Entitled" to physical and psychological well-being?  Nobody is entitled to anything but that which they have the power to prevent others from taking from them.  The small number of colonists used in experiments by Cerberus were of far greater utility as test subjects than they would have been as farmers.  Does that matter to those who died?  No, and it shouldn't, but the potential gain for anyone who *wasn't* a member of one of those colonies is far greater from Cerberus using them than it is from them being left alone.