140 réponses à ce sujet

[Pocketgb]

TJSolo wrote...

It was just a broad, flat, and minute stroke for base stats of health, weapons, shields and hardening all valuable to every class to varying degrees. There was not and is not a sound reason for Bioware to have thought a player would not have wanted to obtain bonus health as a reward for an achievment. So under the idea that bonus = good for all, it was implemented as such.

I think it's a given that most people are going to appreciate something that benefits them. I just don't see why someone should be given a crutch when they can already walk just fine.

I would've rather gotten a stuffed bear, personally.

TJSolo wrote...

It is called progression; a player does so much x and gets better or a player mets a milestone and gets a reward, gets better. Incentives, upgrades, rewards, bonuses, perks, ranks, skills, all function under the guise of character improvement not "help".

Correct, I love progression in an RPG - when it's tied to a character. In ME1 it felt like I was earning perks and bonuses to my ME1 account, not to my characters. More on this below.

TJSolo wrote...

There is no way an achievement is "supposed" to work, just because the majority of games don't have achiement based bonuses do not imply they are not "supposed" to work that way. It is merely an implementation choice.

Hm. This I agree with, because I've been saying the exact same thing in all these bloated "ME1 IS NO LONGER AN RPG" threads.

TJSolo wrote...

You do know the ME2 ties in available loyalty powers with achievments?

No **** dude, and it sucks. It makes sense when the powers become available for the character that unlocked them, not so much with other characters. My Shepard is able to learn how to properly use Ammo-Piercing rounds from Garrus because he's earned his trust. Why then can my second level 1 Shepard know how to do the exact same thing when my very first ME2 Shepard could not?

Of course, the difference here is that like the bonus powers in ME1
you'll still have the same amount of talent points. While I still don't like it too much, at least it's not a
flat-out upgrade to your whole account.

TJSolo wrote...

Well the getting all the bonus weapons, stats, and extra powers is partially what added to the replayability of ME1. Since getting ALL achievments in 1 play just is not possible. Also I am referring to normal playing not exploiting.

In ME1 and ME2, I would've much rather preferred all bonus talents to be usuable from the start, no XP bonuses, and all the weapon/ability achievements took a much longer time to get. The longer it takes the more significance the achievement has, although you have to be careful not to make it too insane to get them.

And as a reminder, read at the top what I said about preferring a teddy-bear to something I don't need ; )

[AlanC9]

Pocketgb wrote...
No **** dude, and it sucks. It makes sense when the powers become available for the character that unlocked them, not so much with other characters. My Shepard is able to learn how to properly use Ammo-Piercing rounds from Garrus because he's earned his trust. Why then can my second level 1 Shepard know how to do the exact same thing when my very first ME2 Shepard could not?

Oddly enough, Bio made the same lame decision with specializations in DA:O; one character learns a spec and all characters from then on can too, even if those characters have no in-game way to learn that specialization. If anything, DA:O is even worse; the specializations are often tied to specific decisions from the character, but you can spoof the system by making the unlocking decision and then immediately reloading. 

[TJSolo]

Pocketgb wrote...

I think it's a given that most people are going to appreciate something that benefits them. I just don't see why someone should be given a crutch when they can already walk just fine.

I would've rather gotten a stuffed bear, personally.

Not a crutch(this is your defective word); a perk, reward, incentive, bonus are proper descriptors. Games provide them as a form of character improvement.

Correct, I love progression in an RPG - when it's tied to a character. In ME1 it felt like I was earning perks and bonuses to my ME1 account, not to my characters. More on this below.

I used the term progession as it is not unique to RPGs. New game+ files may or may not be tied to one character or future characters. ME2 provides benefits equally to all of its new game+ files.

No **** dude, and it sucks. It makes sense when the powers become available for the character that unlocked them, not so much with other characters. My Shepard is able to learn how to properly use Ammo-Piercing rounds from Garrus because he's earned his trust. Why then can my second level 1 Shepard know how to do the exact same thing when my very first ME2 Shepard could not?

Of course, the difference here is that like the bonus powers in ME1
you'll still have the same amount of talent points. While I still don't like it too much, at least it's not a
flat-out upgrade to your whole account.

Why? For the same reason my level15 rogue in DOA unlocked the Bard spec from Lelianna and my next lvl1 rogue was able to use it, it got unlocked for all future characters.

ME1 and ME2 skill points?That is not a difference. Let me refresh or tell you how ME1 bonus powers worked. The player only get access to the power, the player still has to point skill points in it. The player does not get extra skill points because of it, just like ME2.

In ME1 and ME2, I would've much rather preferred all bonus talents to be usuable from the start, no XP bonuses, and all the weapon/ability achievements took a much longer time to get. The longer it takes the more significance the achievement has, although you have to be careful not to make it too insane to get them.

And as a reminder, read at the top what I said about preferring a teddy-bear to something I don't need ; )

Why the hypocrisy between talents and weapons/abilities?(Rhetorical)
The idea you do approve of having achievements for is the same perspective Bioware did for ME1, they just didn't stop to just consider the few players that enjoy earning weapon achievements, they included others. So that others could have viable achievement chasing fun, not just the people that wanted one aspect.

That is the point. Games are made for more than people that share you particular affinity, more than your likes have to be taken into account. Deeming the aspects you don't like as "devaluing the game" is short sighted and narrow minded.

So again, the various achievements and bonuses offered in ME1 added to its replayability.

[Pocketgb]

TJSolo wrote...

Not a crutch(this is your defective word)...

You have no more claim in calling what I view as a "crutch" than I do saying that none of these benefits hold replay value.

Based on some of the numerous and basic definitions, they are indeed rewards. But why would I want something I've proved I don't need? Why would I literally be given a crutch when I can walk fine? Why would I need an additional spoon when I'm currently eating with one? Why would I want another fridge when I'm already making good use of the first?

If I'm gonna be given something I don't need, I'd want it to be fun.

Why? For the same reason my level15 rogue in DOA unlocked the Bard spec from Lelianna and my next lvl1 rogue was able to use it, it got unlocked for all future characters.

Right, so my point is how come your level 15 Rogue can only become a Bard after talking to and gaining trust from Leliana when your newly created Rogue can become a Bard without doing so?

ME1 and ME2 skill points?That is not a difference. Let me refresh or tell you how ME1 bonus powers worked. The player only get access to the power, the player still has to point skill points in it. The player does not get extra skill points because of it, just like ME2.

Sweet, that's exactly what I said. Thank you for the reiteration, I guess?

Why the hypocrisy between talents and weapons/abilities?(Rhetorical)

There is no hypocrisy. What I said was 1. I want the exact same achievements that we have in both games to still exist, but take a little bit longer to earn in ME1 and a lot longer to earn in ME2, and 2. I'd prefer if all the bonus powers and weapon talents and whatever you could put in that extra slot to be available to choose as soon as you're at the character generation screen.

If you've been paying attention to my previous posts, you'd also know that I'd prefer 3. to replace what you would normally unlock with achievements (the bonus powers or other perks) with aesthetic rewards. Examples: cool looking fish that you never have to feed, pieces of armor that you could attach to your suit that only changed your appearance (a pin or a bidge, different designs, colors, textures, etc.), a cat that lounged on your table, etc. These are also signs of progression, just not the same kind of progression as simply becoming stronger with each playthrough and with how long you play.

That is the point. Games are made for more than people that share you particular affinity, more than your likes have to be taken into account. Deeming the aspects you don't like as "devaluing the game" is short sighted and narrow minded.

Okay. Then why are you posting and doing exactly what I'm doing in here - i.e. voicing your opinion - in all these threads?

I could just leave it at that and be a troll, but you do it for the same reason I do: I'm voicing my opinion. There's nothing wrong with that. I'm only stating what I don't like, what I don't agree with. I'm not saying anyone here is wrong for saying otherwise, I'm just saying that I didn't like a certain aspect - just like what you've done.

There's no denying that what they did for ME1 added replayability for people. I'm only stating that I didn't like the path they took, and am stating what I would've rather seen.

[addiction21]

BioWare might take the fun out of replayability but damn do I find it fun to watch the same few people complain in every thread they possibly can, each and every day, all day long.



To spend a moment on topic tho... I find as much reason to replay both 1 and 2. Its for the different choices, squads, and ways the game or dialogues play out depending on who you have with you. I could care less about more loot or skill points.

[Weiser_Cain]

I wanted achievement bonuses as well.

[Fluffeh Kitteh]

RPGs, like any other games out there, are only as replayable as the duratin where they can sustain your attention. Once the major things are done over with, when the last boss is beaten and the story finished, what remains will determine long term replayability. Even if an RPG gives you a wide open world, it's not going to be very replayable if it lacks relevant mechanics to make you come back for more.

IMO the best, possibly only way to make ME2 more replayable is to lengthen the storyline, and by that I don't mean shoving in more Kasumis or Zaeeds each with their own loaylty mission which pretty much just boils down to shooting and killing the Mercs of the Day.

Modifié par Fluffeh Kitteh, 28 mars 2010 - 11:03 .

[TJSolo]

Pocketgb wrote...
~snip~

Anecdotes and faulty reasoning aside.
Topic:
The various achievements and bonuses offered in ME1 functioned to add to the games replay and fun.The list I offered answered the question from JrayM16 about what incentives did ME1 have.

[Pocketgb]

TJSolo wrote...

Anecdotes and faulty reasoning aside...

If you're going to claim my post was full of meaningless bullcrap, at least have the common human deciency to explain why. Is English not a native language? Because that would be understandable as to why your conclusions or what you're saying is wholefully ignorant and concerning.

TJSolo wrote...

The various achievements and bonuses offered in ME1 functioned to add to the games replay and fun.The list I offered answered the question from JrayM16 about what incentives did ME1 have.

Why do you keep saying this? We started this whole post-fight when I answered your "supposedly off-topic" question (that, I mind you, was asked to me):

TJSolo wrote...

A bonus is a bonus. What's not to like?

Modifié par Pocketgb, 28 mars 2010 - 07:10 .

[KotOREffecT]

addiction21 wrote...

BioWare might take the fun out of replayability but damn do I find it fun to watch the same few people complain in every thread they possibly can, each and every day, all day long.

To spend a moment on topic tho... I find as much reason to replay both 1 and 2. Its for the different choices, squads, and ways the game or dialogues play out depending on who you have with you. I could care less about more loot or skill points.

You noticed this as well addiction? lol You can pretty much see which teams certain forum posters are on. The ME 1 "I hate everything in ME 2 team", and ME 2 "I enjoy it dispite the haters". You can just tell by looking at certain topics like these and the Mako/Hammerhead ones for example.

And exactly, both games have the same replay value. I and many others play them both for the different characters we make and the different ways we roleplay them and the different relationships they have with certain characters.

[TJSolo]

Pocketgb wrote...
~snip~

I decided to stop pursuing and trying to get anything else out of your posts regarding this because your anecdote sums up the the impasse we are having. You view the bonuses as something more than what they are(extra/redundant), I do not. That is all. Discussing this can only go so far and we have reached the limit.

I repeat the fundamental idea behind the achievements because it seems getting off topic during a discussion here is too easy.

[Pocketgb]

TJSolo wrote...

I decided to stop pursuing and trying to get anything else out of your posts regarding this because your anecdote sums up the the impasse we are having. You view the bonuses as something more than what they are(extra/redundant), I do not. That is all.

You could've assumed that my from my first post in this thread. You should have definitely known that by the time I outright told you when you asked me "what's not to like?", stating quite plainly the whole subjectivity of the issue by all of the "personaly"s I listed. There's nothing wrong with liking them, there's nothing wrong with not liking them. No one is right.

But if you're going to "stop persuing" the discussion, than simply do that. The way you left claming I was essentially an mouth-frothing idiot is incredibly rude.

TJSolo wrote...

I repeat the fundamental idea behind the achievements because it seems getting off topic during a discussion here is too easy.

It's not off-topic, although I was defending myself against your outrageous and baseless accusations (which you said you wouldn't do, at least 'intentionally...'). Forums are made for discussing, and this thread in quesiton simply revolves around the replay. "I liked the replayability of ME1" " I didn't" "Oh, why is that?" "Because X, Y, and etc.", and so on and so forth. This is a forum, after all.

Modifié par Pocketgb, 28 mars 2010 - 07:43 .

[KotOREffecT]

Pocketgb and TJSolo have the most epic forum battles with tremendous amounts of casualties. Now its time I think we give these two a couple of star destroyers and let em duke it out once and for all!

Modifié par KotOREffecT, 28 mars 2010 - 07:51 .

[TJSolo]

Pocketgb wrote...

You could've assumed that my from my first post in this thread. You should have definitely known that by the time I outright told you when you asked me "what's not to like?", stating quite plainly the whole subjectivity of the issue by all of the "personaly"s I listed. There's nothing wrong with liking them, there's nothing wrong with not liking them. No one is right.

The "What's not to like?" was whimsical and mostly rhetorical to point out how odd I felt about your notion of not liking bonuses. For me this conversation was not about right/wrong it was a statement that sparked me as curiously odd.

But if you're going to "stop persuing" the discussion, than simply do that. The way you left claming I was essentially an mouth-frothing idiot is incredibly rude.

Stop sounding melodramatic. I stopped being curious enough to pursue your reasoning in that topic, that is all.

It's not off-topic, although I was defending myself against your outrageous and baseless accusations (which you said you wouldn't do, at least 'intentionally...'). Forums are made for discussing, and this thread in quesiton simply revolves around the replay. "I liked the replayability of ME1" " I didn't" "Oh, why is that?" "Because X, Y, and etc.", and so on and so forth. This is a forum, after all.

It was not on topic as it was attempting to discuss the supposed quality of the existance of the bonuses and not just simply how the bonuses were part of the replay value of ME1. The list and my post was not biased, you were the one starting with the biases such as calling the bonuses crutches and devaluing the base game.
Pretty much why I no longer wanted to continue that discussion, as it was not leading to anything constructive.
You are the one still further attempting to drive this off topic and delve into my intentions.
So that is all. I won't bother responding further to attempts of derailment.

[Pocketgb]

TJSolo wrote...

The "What's not to like?" was whimsical and mostly rhetorical to point out how odd I felt about your notion of not liking bonuses. For me this conversation was not about right/wrong it was a statement that sparked me as curiously odd.

When has my stance ever been about what's right or wrong, Solo? What I've been reinforcing in this thread was that my OPINION was that I did not like ME1's form of replayability rewards.

This is why I keep stating so many examples, metaphors, and anecdotes: I'm trying to help you from twisting what I'm saying.

Stop sounding melodramatic.

Be considerate and consistent, and I think we got ourselves a deal!

It was not on topic as it was attempting to discuss the supposed quality of the existance of the bonuses and not just simply how the bonuses were part of the replay value of ME1...

There's a huge difference between saying "these features are bad" and "these features are bad for me." That's all I was saying. People like the color red and that's fine. I don't, I prefer blue. I never once said that the color red "sucked the big one" or that people who like the color red are wrong. What I said was a harmless side-comment unless taken incorrectly.

So that is all. I won't bother responding further to attempts of derailment.

Sounds good!

KotOREffecT wrote...

Pocketgb and TJSolo have the most
epic forum battles with tremendous amounts of casualties. Now its time
I think we give these two a couple of star destroyers and let em duke
it out once and for all! ../../../images/forum/emoticons/tongue.png

I aim to please!...Within reason, of course *looks at huge quote-wars in "ME1 is not an RPG" threads*.

Modifié par Pocketgb, 28 mars 2010 - 08:42 .

[sherban1988]

Guess it depends on how much you enjoy the game itself.

I played it numerous times, mostly with different characters, simply because I enjoy playing it. I love the universe, I love the characters, and even after two months, I still enjoy sitting down and the PC and playing a couple hours of ME2 after work.