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At least combat is improved. Really? No.


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#1
bjdbwea

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I get that BioWare and EA wanted to make the game more appealing to the mainstream / casual gamer crowd. Nothing new. It always means that story and "complicated" (RPG) elements have to take the back seat. Action! Flashy graphics! Explosions! Okay. Maybe for that audience the combat system is indeed great, as they don't know better and wouldn't want a real challenge in the first place. Instant rewards, reloading not wanted. But if we're honest, for experienced players the combat system is in no way better, nor more challenging than in ME 1.

The main problem: BioWare effectively removed the third dimension. This is not a "shooter", however you define that. It's a shooting range. You sit behind cover and are invincible. Forever. You get up, shoot enemies and are shot at (they never miss), and after a few seconds, when your health is nearly depleted, you duck into cover again. Repeat, repeat, repeat. As soon as all enemies are dead, you move on to the next stage. Once you understand that concept, it becomes boring quickly, and no presentation can help that.

The enemies don't charge, they have no strategy, they don't work together. They're cannon fodder. Once you start using biotic abilities, it becomes even easier. While enemies, again unlike ME 1, don't use any abilities. The best thing they come up with are rocket launchers, and the rockets are conveniently slow as to pose little of a threat either.

And that's another thing: Your PC can take too much damage. Even one or two direct hits from a rocket launcher are easily shrugged off. You don't even need to deplenish your medi gel, instead you just duck behind cover for a few seconds. In ME 1, a direct hit from a rocket meant reloading. Realistic and challenging. Letting a single Krogan come into melee range usually meant you did something wrong and were in for a big, big challenge. Now, no more. Cannon fodder, like everyone else. Since this would probably be too easy even for the casual gamers, BioWare artificially increases the difficulty by making all enemies the perfect sharp shooters. They never miss, whether you stand still or move. Effectively enforcing the cover-shoot-cover tactic as the only valid one.

The level design is beautiful, but like in the old Jedi Knight games, just functional. In the sense of being designed as combat areas and arenas. You run from shooting range to shooting range. Wherever you see a lot of crates, you know it's the next round.

There are exceptions, and at least then the game provides a challenge. This is done with a simple trick: Forcing the player to advance. A) through a time limit, B) because he's out of ammo, or C) because he needs to reach a target while BioWare employs the oldest and most outfashioned trick in the book: Respawning enemies. Not only is it unrealistic, it's also again a lazy way of providing a challenge that's otherwise not there. Still, at least in these rare occasions, combat is more than shooting ducks.

Unfortunately, especially in these cases the controls pose a bigger threat than the enemies. Cover, sprint and jump on the same button? Really? Of course the inevitable happens: When I want to run away, my PC covers against a wall, often dying before I can correct the mistake. Sometimes my PC jumps over a crate, directly into the arms of the enemies.

The very minimum would be to allow the player to bind they keys at leisure. And of course allowing the player to crouch at will would be an absolute matter of course. But the intent is clear: To enforce the "shooting range" gameplay. The enemies don't think and move in three directions. If the player can, it makes the game even more trivial.

Feel free to reply with "cool story, bro". Or not at all. I don't care. I even get that many will enjoy this gameplay. As I said, explosions sell, thinking not so much. The movie industry would know best. To me, the game simply lacks a challenge. Generally I don't care much about action games anyway. I don't buy them. Granted, combat in ME 1 wasn't perfect either (but in my opinion it WAS better than in ME 2 - at least it had three dimensions). But I could overlook that, as the story and presentation was incredible. I don't feel that way in ME 2. But that's another discussion.

Modifié par bjdbwea, 09 février 2010 - 08:55 .


#2
Frotality

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hmmm....many valid points for bioware to consider; now i have the reasons combat felt so cookie-cutter-like to me.

for me this is part of the over-arching problem of ME2- far to linear. the strategic element of ME1, flawed as it was, did add a whole level of gameplay that ME2, in its improvements, still greatly suffers without.

#3
Phel Shepard

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Seriously guys we need to look at the game and see how BW spent their resources. They have a limited amount of resources to spend and they spent most of it on dialogue, character development and voice acting. They told a story. Now granted their shooter aspect is lacking, but to be honest I don't want them to improve it at the cost of characters and story. That is seriously BW's strong point, that is their forte their edge their modus operandi. I don't want them to lose the essential ingredient that we love because we notice a single flaw somewhere else.



We already lost many roleplay elements like elevators and walking animations and other deeper elements to the people who are screaming for more shooter gameplay and flashy new graphics. No more! My voice will forever be for the roleplayers and the intermediate to hardcore gamer, casual gamers take a back seat because they have a following that you shouldn't mess with!

#4
Dethateer

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Right, because in ME1, you actually did more than pop out of cover to shoot. O wait. Well, you certainly didn't have regenerating health. Ah, crap, wrong again. Eh, you sure as hell couldn't take a rocket to the face, could you? Actually, you could on anything other than insanity. And those rockets weren't even heat-seeking.

#5
YakoHako

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What games are you comparing it to that make the combat stale for you? (other than the original ME)

#6
ABCoLD

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Phel Shepard wrote...

Seriously guys we need to look at the game and see how BW spent their resources. They have a limited amount of resources to spend and they spent most of it on dialogue, character development and voice acting. They told a story. Now granted their shooter aspect is lacking, but to be honest I don't want them to improve it at the cost of characters and story. That is seriously BW's strong point, that is their forte their edge their modus operandi. I don't want them to lose the essential ingredient that we love because we notice a single flaw somewhere else.

We already lost many roleplay elements like elevators and walking animations and other deeper elements to the people who are screaming for more shooter gameplay and flashy new graphics. No more! My voice will forever be for the roleplayers and the intermediate to hardcore gamer, casual gamers take a back seat because they have a following that you shouldn't mess with!


They built ME on the Unreal Engine... how could they not get a decent shooter interface?  And while I whole-heartedly approve of the pseudo-interactive environment, was anyone else never surprised when combat happened?  If you saw a bunch of boxes lying around you knew what was gonna happen.  Straight empty hallway=no enemies.
OP pretty much got it right.

#7
bjdbwea

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Phel Shepard wrote...

We already lost many roleplay elements like elevators and walking animations and other deeper elements to the people who are screaming for more shooter gameplay and flashy new graphics. No more! My voice will forever be for the roleplayers and the intermediate to hardcore gamer, casual gamers take a back seat because they have a following that you shouldn't mess with!


Yeah, absolutely. I thought that was clear from my first post. I'm very disappointed too that the RPG elements and much depth are gone. I wouldn't care if the action part were as simple as Pong. As long as the story, presentation thereof and RPG elements would be on the level of ME 1 (or even better, as I'd expect from a successor). But they aren't. Now if you set the focus more on action, at least that action should work. It doesn't either, that was my main point.

Modifié par bjdbwea, 09 février 2010 - 08:52 .


#8
Phel Shepard

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Well I agree with you. But don't you think the devs know that? All I am saying is this is not a revelation to anybody, it's a decision made by somebody. I don't want the devs to feel like they need to divert resources away from other things which I would deem more important to the series to further appease the shooter loving players.

In all honesty they will not be able to top FPS games like Halo and a few other very dedicated FPS games. I am trying to encourage them to develop the talent that made them who they are, that is roleplaying and characters. They make gaming an art, not a skill. This is an entirely different direction than other games are taking! And I think it will make them successful enough so that in the future they will be able to compete with other dedicated shooters.

For now, stick with their talent.  Don't give in to the occasional whiner. 

#9
hangmans tree

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You got me scared.

I am yet to recive my ME2 copy, but when I read of those mechanics and your criticism I feel we're/will be on the same boat. I'm already worried if the game will satisfy my expectations.

I like challenge, not mindless sloughter.

I like insightful level design, that means it COMBINES usefulnesss/porpousness and visual delight/creative force (surprising). If this is lacking in ME2 then...well, I'm worried.

#10
Phel Shepard

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hangmans tree wrote...

You got me scared.
I am yet to recive my ME2 copy, but when I read of those mechanics and your criticism I feel we're/will be on the same boat. I'm already worried if the game will satisfy my expectations.
I like challenge, not mindless sloughter.
I like insightful level design, that means it COMBINES usefulnesss/porpousness and visual delight/creative force (surprising). If this is lacking in ME2 then...well, I'm worried.


Play it on hardcore and you will have a challenge for sure. As for surprises... maybe not many. But I don't really remember being surprised at all in ME1, so I don't see how this is a change.

Modifié par Phel Shepard, 09 février 2010 - 08:58 .


#11
Dethateer

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'Cause there was a lot of that in ME1. Especially unique level design.

#12
ZeroXraven

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The gameplay in Mass Effect 2 is greatly improved. I don't know what you people are talking about. To say it is greatly flawed is ridiculus. BTW enemies with shotguns do charge you and so does every Krogan. Especially on Insanity which I beat. Idunno what to say other than, stop complaining

#13
artiss68w

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bjdbwea wrote...

I get that BioWare and EA wanted to make the game more appealing to the mainstream / casual gamer crowd. Nothing new. It always means that story and "complicated" (RPG) elements have to take the back seat. Action! Flashy graphics! Explosions! Okay. Maybe for that audience the combat system is indeed great, as they don't know better and wouldn't want a real challenge in the first place. Instant rewards, reloading not wanted. But if we're honest, for experienced players the combat system is in no way better, nor more challenging than in ME 1.


Here we go with this again. Seriously, do we actually consider ourselves and/or fellow gamers so retarded? "Whoa, explosion...............BOOOOOM!!" Really, who does that?

True, the combat system is not better but IMO is smoother. Way less framerate drop during combat. The cover system is still not as fluid as in games like GoW, and overall it seems the biggest change is the layering of shields, armor, and barriers. In the end, combat is still pretty enjoyable IMO.

#14
Phel Shepard

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artiss68w wrote...

bjdbwea wrote...

I get that BioWare and EA wanted to make the game more appealing to the mainstream / casual gamer crowd. Nothing new. It always means that story and "complicated" (RPG) elements have to take the back seat. Action! Flashy graphics! Explosions! Okay. Maybe for that audience the combat system is indeed great, as they don't know better and wouldn't want a real challenge in the first place. Instant rewards, reloading not wanted. But if we're honest, for experienced players the combat system is in no way better, nor more challenging than in ME 1.


Here we go with this again. Seriously, do we actually consider ourselves and/or fellow gamers so retarded? "Whoa, explosion...............BOOOOOM!!" Really, who does that?

True, the combat system is not better but IMO is smoother. Way less framerate drop during combat. The cover system is still not as fluid as in games like GoW, and overall it seems the biggest change is the layering of shields, armor, and barriers. In the end, combat is still pretty enjoyable IMO.



Agreed. When I started playing ME2 I was so excited about the story involved that even the small improvements to combat were great. It's still pretty enjoyable. 

#15
Taritu

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Combat feels very static, with little movement. I find it boring, to be frank. ME1 had moving fights and strafing, which is a lot more fun. There was cover, but you didn't have to be behind it all the time, and just strafing behind it was good enough in many cases.



The main problem with ME2 is story. But I also don't find the combat to be particularly better.

#16
BanditGR

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bjdbwea wrote...

This is not a "shooter", however you define that. It's a shooting range. You sit behind cover and are invincible. Forever. You get up, shoot enemies and are shot at (they never miss), and after a few seconds, when your health is nearly depleted, you duck into cover again. Repeat, repeat, repeat. As soon as all enemies are dead, you move on to the next stage. Once you understand that concept, it becomes boring quickly, and no presentation can help that.


I believe this was largely true for ME1 as well. Your point is ?


The enemies don't charge, they have no strategy, they don't work together. They're cannon fodder. Once you start using biotic abilities, it becomes even easier. While enemies, again unlike ME 1, don't use any abilities. The best thing they come up with are rocket launchers, and the rockets are conveniently slow as to pose little of a threat either.


The enemies shouldn't charge for the sake of charging (though they will on higher difficulties, depending on their type). That's just moronic. They don't have much of a strategy true (other than trying to overwhelm you with numbers and slowly flank you if you let them) but they sure are an improvement from ME1. But they are only cannon fodder on lower difficulties.


And that's another thing: Your PC can take too much damage. Even one or two direct hits from a rocket launcher are easily shrugged off. You don't even need to deplenish your medi gel, instead you just duck behind cover for a few seconds. In ME 1, a direct hit from a rocket meant reloading. Realistic and challenging. Letting a single Krogan come into melee range usually meant you did something wrong and were in for a big, big challenge. Now, no more. Cannon fodder, like everyone else. Since this would probably be too easy even for the casual gamers, BioWare artificially increases the difficulty by making all enemies the perfect sharp shooters. They never miss, whether you stand still or move. Effectively enforcing the cover-shoot-cover tactic as the only valid one.


The game was designed to be relatively easy on Casual/Normal/Veteran. If you want to be (somewhat) challenged play on Insanity, period. Once again, the same points can be made about the same difficulty settings for ME1. Enemies not missing and basically staying glued at you, largely ignoring your team mates, is indeed a design flaw.


The level design is beautiful, but like in the old Jedi Knight games, just functional. In the sense of being designed as combat areas and arenas. You run from shooting range to shooting range. Wherever you see a lot of crates, you know it's the next round.

There are exceptions, and at least then the game provides a challenge. This is done with a simple trick: Forcing the player to advance. A) through a time limit, B) because he's out of ammo, or C) because he needs to reach a target while BioWare employs the oldest and most outfashioned trick in the book: Respawning enemies. Not only is it unrealistic, it's also again a lazy way of providing a challenge that's otherwise not there. Still, at least in these rare occasions, combat is more than shooting ducks.

Unfortunately, especially in these cases the controls pose a bigger threat than the enemies. Cover, sprint and jump on the same button? Really? Of course the inevitable happens: When I want to run away, my PC covers against a wall, often dying before I can correct the mistake. Sometimes my PC jumps over a crate, directly into the arms of the enemies.

The very minimum would be to allow the player to bind they keys at leisure. And of course allowing the player to crouch at will would be an absolute matter of course. But the intent is clear: To enforce the "shooting range" gameplay. The enemies don't think and move in three directions. If the player can, it makes the game even more trivial.


Valid points for the most part, though a bit exagerated. There is certainly nothing special or new about them, at least when it comes to the time limits, hunting for ammo or reaching an objective. Have been beaten to death in many other shooters. It's not the best system in the world, but it's a working system, which is what ultimately matters.

Quite honestly, you picked the wrong feature to criticize in ME2, considering the options :P Combat is improved in many areas over ME1, in the context of your typical TPS. Is it perfect ? Hell, no, improvements are always welcome, but like I said, it works and can certainly be enjoyable depending on your class.

Modifié par BanditGR, 09 février 2010 - 09:25 .


#17
Phel Shepard

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Well there is far more to the story than meets the eye. In fact.. there are rumors circling that ME2 setup a ton of deceiving plot devices.

*SPOILER WARNING* Including the fact that TIM knew where the IFF was on a derelict Reaper ship? I mean... come on that thing had been there for countless thousands of years and he knows where it is at the right time? So the reapers can be destroyed? It's likely that TIM is working for the Reapers master plan. *END SPOILER*

Don't diss the story just yet, I have a feeling we are in for surprise. :)

Modifié par Phel Shepard, 09 février 2010 - 09:21 .


#18
Darth Drago

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After just finishing my first run through of the game I have to admit that I feel the same way. Go into a room where you see convenient cover placed about or boxes that you can destroy or stuff that can explode. Why those crates are they marked in the first place I’ll never understand I would rather be hiding behind one and find out in combat that it wasn’t safe to do so than see all these little markers for them on my screen. As for the enemy AI it really is a joke, the best they do is duck for cover now and then. The only flanking you get is from the big mechs you fight since they seem to have a Shepard tracking system built into them. By te way why does it seem like everyone and their cousin has their own battledroid army? I would have loved to see some real AI thinking in combat with one guy popping up and shooting at you while another jumps out and runs to another spot to outflank you or even when they are really hurt try and escape like they do in Fallout 3. I would even be happy if they gave the enemy AI the same programming that they gave your companions.

By the way hangmans tree, don’t let all of these gripes from me or anyone spook you about the core of the game. Its not all bad news. The story is still pretty good (not as great as ME1 in my opinion) the graphics will blow your mind and the replay value with the companions is pretty high as well. As for the combat issues you will get the hang of it. You have no choice, do or die.

I got my own list of gripes about the game here if your interested:
http://social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/103/index/984766/1

#19
lockerlocke

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I'd find the combat boring too, if I played on Normal.

#20
Draconis6666

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wtf are you talking about? in ME 1 you could take like 20 rockets in the face and not even take damage if you had colossus X and weren't playing on insanity

You are made of ****ing glass in ME 2 in comparison to ME 1

Modifié par Draconis6666, 09 février 2010 - 09:28 .


#21
LostHH

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I find the combat much better than ME1, especially on Hardcore.

Even on Insanity in the first game you didn't really have to take cover much. Also infinite ammo on ME1 made it easy, in that respect I welcome the reloading mechanic (it also felt more natural as I'm so used to reloading in other shooters).

#22
bjdbwea

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YakoHako wrote...

What games are you comparing it to that make the combat stale for you? (other than the original ME)


Good question. As I said, I don't care much for action games. I know a lot of games with better combat, RPGs mostly, but since I wouldn't call ME 2 a real RPG, it's only fair to compare it to other third-person shooters. Maybe someone has played the old Mafia. You had realistic levels, limited health and ammo, enemies that came after you, and you could make use of the third dimension. GTA San Andreas also spams you with stupid enemies, but at least you have to move and look after your health. Both games weren't hard either once you knew the controls (and unlike ME 2 the controls were flawless), but at least it felt more diverse.

There probably isn't any perfect solution, not without major steps in AI development. But if that's the case, then a game with all that other potential that the ME universe has, should simply not focus even more on third-person shooter elements which, as stated, don't work. More RPG elements would make combat more diverse, as would bigger areas. But just these things have been reduced. Fallout 3 combines action-oriented shooting and RPG elements. It works just fine (even better with some mods that remove or alter the ever-present mainstreaming). And like ME 1 it works on consoles too, so that can't be the issue.

PS: I assumed that everyone played ME 1 on the highest difficulty, as indeed otherwise the game doesn't provide much of a challenge either.

Modifié par bjdbwea, 09 février 2010 - 10:05 .


#23
Draconis6666

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it still doesnt you can just move to the left the entire fight and nothing will hit you

#24
AtreiyaN7

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Yeah, ME1 was great - stand there and spam my pistol - oh, what a challenge that was. *sarcasm* Could they improve level design more in the next game or ME2 DLC? Sure, but ME2 combat is still far better than the completely unchallenging combat of ME1. If I can kill armatures in ME1 on Insanity while on foot, spamming abilities and using only my HMWP, that is no challenge at all (I had Kaidan and could just keep that armature in the air pretty much non-stop alternating Lift, and when it was on CD, I just Pushed).

Modifié par AtreiyaN7, 09 février 2010 - 09:59 .


#25
asaiasai

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I agree with the OP in many respects, as a shooter god, Doom 2, Quake 1,2,3, CSS, L4D 1&2, TF 1&2, HL 1&2, just to name a few FPS. My biggest complaints are;



The inability to jump when and where i want to, loosing control of being able to jump over a box or obstruction with out having to cover behind it first is bad.



As the OP said sprint, cover, jump, on the same key and NO CROUCH? Seriously? I am not looking foward to an auto cover system like ME and i do not mind the idea of a cover system but it should not require me to cover before i jump an obstruction. I should not become glued to a box or wall if i get to close either.



This heatsink/ammo system is terrible. It would not be so bad if it functioned like codex states. The heatsinks are supposed to be universal, but if i run out of sinks for the assault rifle i HAVE to use a shotgun? Why can't i just take the heat sinks the shotgun has and stuff them into the assault rifle? This is how i interpret the codex explination of this ammo system. I should have a pool of heat sinks say 20 that are interchangable as they have been defined, and use them in any weapon i choose. I will still have to police up spares from the battle field but they would refill the pool. Just refill the pool and even keep the same values based on the weapon type 8 shots in a pistol, 12 rounds in a sniper if you follow me.



I should be able to customize my weapon choices, for example as a soldier if i want to carry an assault rifle, sniper and a heavy i should be able to leave the useless weapons back on the ship where they belong. I have no problem with class requirements for weapons, but if i leave a weapon or 2 behind that should allow me to carry extra clips since the spot the weapon(s) would have taken up is now empty.



I actually preferred the combat system from ME over the current system except for one thing the auto cover move the PC performed anytime you got too close to a wall or a box. I do not for the most part use the cover system at any time i am a straffer. I will shelter behind an obstruction and strafe out shoot a bit and strafe back behind cover. I play ME and ME2 just like i would CSS, L4D, TF, while i agree this is not those games that still does not stop me from playing it like them.



One real glaring weakness i have seen and it is exploitable is, the PC will draw most of the enemy fire, so you can count on the enemies to ignore the squadmates for the most part. It is kind of like drawing aggro in WoW or DAO, shoot them a few times and you are all they worry about. Stay behind cover after you develop aggro, and just move your squadmates into position. They will do a signifigant portion of the work. If you have a squad mate taking fire just throw a few rounds at that target they will ignore the NPC and focus on the player, works everytime. Seems kind of like a cheat once you get it worked out. But hey with the screwed up ammo system ill take what i can get.



Asai