73 réponses à ce sujet

[weger007]

Hi there Bioware.

I have played every title Bioware released over the years since MDK 2 (With exception of Sonic Chronicles).

I have to give express to my awe for ME2. Bioware set the standards for the RPG genre for so many years, and while I always loved the games, all those years Bioware had failed to get rid of old burdens that seemed keep them from really flying..

These burdens where the levelling grind, the euipment management and the looting, that always got in the way of immersion and story telling. Biowares Partner, Obsidian, hat gotten it right long ago (i.e. with Baldurs Gate Spinoff "Planescape Torment"), but Obsidian never had the PR power to get into the Mainstream market with their own ideas. They always had the better stories though.

Now, as i have played ME2, I am amazed. The ME2 Team successfully identified almost all the obstacles to story telling, burdening Bioware Games since Baldurs Gate, and finally learned to tell the story right..

This Step required a huge amount of courage. I really bow to that. Because I am sure that there are millions of fans out there still to afraid to accept the changes you made. (I just have to read some of the entries in these forums).

You made the PC RPG/Action game into a story telling platform that now directly competes with the movies on level ground (if the gaming industry/ea-bioware would choose to) .

Dont listen to those insecure nerds that still feel frightened out there in the unknown. They are frightened of all change. And they are probably the loudest. So the fanboys of levelling, looting and equipment will hit you hard. But in the end they will come around once they get enthralled by the vivid characters and story telling you delivered with this title.

If I could express my opinion as a loyal customer: Thats where you could hit Blizzard hard. I know you know that. What I see from SWTOR I am convinced you are following that direction, but I am also afraid of the conservative gamers. They will have to be dragged into the future of gaming by their hairs. Please do so. They will be thankfull for it.

Thanks!

Modifié par weger007, 09 février 2010 - 01:07 .

[EternalWolfe]

leveling grind, equipment management and looting are gameplay style elements, just because you don't like it doesn't make the gameplay itself worthless.

Not that I disagree, i could do with some more armor pieces and weapons(actually different, not the same weapon with slightly different stats), maybe a bit more robust skill list. ME2 has its problems, but it is, overall, a good game IMO.

Edit: Anyways, if you really want to see a game that has gotten rid of all the burdens on story-telling, play games like Indigo Prophecy.  Hardly any gameplay at all that isn't directly releated to story.

Modifié par EternalWolfe, 09 février 2010 - 01:17 .

[Snugglepus]

I fully agree with you weger007. Grind and loot race is stoneage.

[LostHH]

Well if Peter Molyneux is to be believed it lies in Natal

[bjdbwea]

Yeah, pew-pew is really the next step in the evolution of gameplay. YOU are afraid, fellow forumer, of thinking it seems. If you want your games to be nothing more than a (more or less interactive) movie with shooting stuff, why don't you just watch a movie and then play a mindless ego shooter.



Okay, that may have been a really harsh, but really. Why can't we just have "auto" options for the fans of pew-pew, and a little more options and freedom for everyone else? ME 1 did that well, ME 2 not.

[weger007]

I went back to ME 1 after my first playthrough of ME2. It was amazing how annoying the inventory in ME1 was after having experinced how it could be in ME2.

I know, that the aspects of perfecting your character have always played a huge part in RPGs. But if they are an obstacle to immersion and story telling, i say get rid of it.

I can see what you are missing. EternalWolfe. IMO the developers have seen the need of equip modification and implemented it
in a way that is still playable with 12 characters to be equipped.

I just imagined how it would have been to have 11 lockers in ME2, instead of the 6 of ME1. After thinking this through I knew it was not feasable to equip this many characters. The huge amount of loot to carry would totally blow any attempt to create a good GUI for your backpack and equipment.

Equipping and looting wouldnt have been fun anymore but tedious and boring.
Levelling defined for me is the "Rats Cellar" of the classical RPG. MOBs to kill for the sake of EP. I hope I dont have to see that again. Its not in ME1 and not in ME2.

Modifié par weger007, 09 février 2010 - 01:33 .

[yRegal]

I fully agree and I would have made this thread myself if I hadn't found it here.



I hope and do believe that Bioware knows that people come here to complain (that's usually why I sign up to something, to file a complaint, not because I'm satisfied).



I go way back with Bioware and I do believe that Mass Effect 2 is the best game they have created.



There is no grinding, there is no stopping and looting everything, there is no unrealistic and tedious inventory management. All you have are your weapons and armor and they are RIGHT THERE on your dude.



It was a dream going through the game without the friction of old role playing mechanics and with deeper RPG elements that I actually want which was the social and interacting kind.



The only complaint I did have which I intended to voice here was the grinding that there seemed to be associated with the metal scanning, until I realized that you didn't need to scan every planet or even fully scan those you did scan. Then it was more bearable to take the "rich" planets down to good or moderate while I look for side missions, which by the way, are perhaps the most unbelievable improvement. Because every side mission is unique and have a distinct visual style and feel, there is no grinding type quest in the game except for one which was to talk to a dude, go to the cities and pick something up then go back, that didn't seem necessary. Otherwise all minor quests seemed to be resolvable right there and then which prevented the stacking of assignments which tend to scare me off of them.

[Kronner]

The future of gaming:

[MarauderESP]

weger007 wrote...

.........

Dont listen to those insecure nerds that still feel frightened out there in the unknown. They are frightened of all change. And they are probably the loudest. So the fanboys of levelling, looting and equipment will hit you hard. But in the end they will come around once they get enthralled by the vivid characters and story telling you delivered with this title.

.........

sorry.... i didn´t see it but how old r u?, and u know what education is?, u know that those that are complaining PAID for the game as u did?, u think they have the same right that u to tell what they think?

in the other hand whith that sentence highlighted up there u only demostrate how tolerant and educate u r......talk to the other the same way u want the other talk to u..... have a good day!

[Sir Shendar]

What's the weather like up there on your high horse? The future of gaming... nothing but simplified shooters with extremely limited console UI sounds good indeed. This game is good but it has it's flaws like any other (won't discuss them here). If YOU don't like classic RPG - fine, but don't insult people that happen to disagree with you. I hope this childish behavior is not the future of gaming communities everywhere.

[kraze07]

So basically you're saying you hope devs continue to gimp the RPG in games in the future. Role-playing elements make games better not worse. Imaging if there were no leveling or loot systems in games like Dragon Age Origins, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights or even games like TES:Oblivion and Fallout 3. They'd just be your average, generic adventure games with very little depth gameplay wise.

[weger007]

@MarauderESP / Sir Shendar



Old enough to have seen some forums and develop some bad prejudices about the gamer crowd. (though an hour of WOW random partiing is probably enough to become a misantrop cynic).



And weather up here on the high horse is ok.



Thanks.

[yRegal]

kraze07 wrote...

So basically you're saying you hope devs continue to gimp the RPG in games in the future. Role-playing elements make games better not worse. Imaging if there were no leveling or loot systems in games like Dragon Age Origins, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights or even games like TES:Oblivion and Fallout 3. They'd just be your average, generic adventure games with very little depth gameplay wise.

There is a reason Dragon Age origins came out around the same period as Mass Effect 2. They are two different directions. A more traditional RPG that is unapologetic about its mechanics and elements, with huge magical cross party inventory bags appearing out of nowhere containing no shortage of loot that they gathered each time they killed someone, for example.

And Mass Effect 2, aiming for a more immersive, or within its given fiction, "realistic approach". I don't have a problem with people voicing their opinions. That's why we have Mass Effect 2 in the first place, arguably the best improvement of a sequel over it's predecessor ever (perhaps along with Uncharted 2). 

But I think sometimes people who criticise doesn't understand what Mass Effect is. In short, it is NOT dragon age and shouldn't be. That does not mean Mass Effect 3 can't improve further from criticism. 

Modifié par yRegal, 09 février 2010 - 02:05 .

[weger007]

@kraze07



Roleplaying is about your character and its development in a social environment IMO. Not about killing rats and finding rusty knives. Where does ME2 lack in Roleplaying I wonder?

Not enough rats to kill and rusty knives to find?



You are right though. The Console UI is suboptimal for playing a game on the PC.

[MarauderESP]

one thing, i like the game, but a little more customization and deep on the research system wouldn´t hurt anyone, and more side-quest that inmerse u on the universe, to short it content and customization, think on the side quest that u get in all the 3 central places citadel , ilum, omega its near the same amount that u get in citadel on me1, and the almost all of them are resolved on the same place.......

inventory on me1 was a mess, but they could used the actual system with more content and mods to let u personalize ur stuff, plus developing upgrades or new weapons.....getting new pieces or stuff at the end of each assignament, content in the end...

we known the existence of cerberus via side-quest....., i hope u can understand what im traying to say, and that is why i come hear and say that i dislike this or that, to them fix it or at least read it and think on it....

sorry if my english is bad but is not my first language and im a little rusty here

[Sashem]

I don't want to break it to you but I think you guys are getting trolled....

[Forsakerr]

is nt posting on a videogame's forum is erm well nerdy ?

[weger007]

Ohh, I meant the other nerds. Not me



Of course i am a total nerd. I am a programmer for gods sake.

But as a programmer I learned the hard way that refactoring is most often a good thing. Getting rid of old socks pays out at the long run..

[Valmy]

kraze07 wrote...

So basically you're saying you hope devs continue to gimp the RPG in games in the future. Role-playing elements make games better not worse. Imaging if there were no leveling or loot systems in games like Dragon Age Origins, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights or even games like TES:Oblivion and Fallout 3. They'd just be your average, generic adventure games with very little depth gameplay wise.

While leveling and getting loot in Dragon Age and KOTOR is nice...what makes them great games is the characters, the settings, the plot and so forth.  If they just made a game where you grind levels and loot...well it would be pretty dull.

While I certainly enjoy getting nice loot and gaining levels I do not understand why being an RPG fan I am required to scream with outrage if anybody tweaks it a bit like in ME2.  I certainly am not enthusiastic about the idea that EVERY game will be like ME2 in the future but surely there is room for different flavors of the same thing eh?

Or maybe not.  Maybe unless something conforms entirely to the leveling-loot orthodoxy it should be ripped as gimping RPGs.  Of course there is loot, its called getting new weapons and armor and upgrades, and leveling in ME2 but whatever.

[Lusitanum]

bjdbwea wrote...

Yeah, pew-pew is really the next step in the evolution of gameplay. YOU are afraid, fellow forumer, of thinking it seems. If you want your games to be nothing more than a (more or less interactive) movie with shooting stuff, why don't you just watch a movie and then play a mindless ego shooter.

Okay, that may have been a really harsh, but really. Why can't we just have "auto" options for the fans of pew-pew, and a little more options and freedom for everyone else? ME 1 did that well, ME 2 not.

Why is it that every time someone says they want to get rid of all the cumbersome and unecessary garbage that drags down so many games, people go right for the "you're just stupid because you don't like to think" card? 

I've played a crap load of RPGs. I've had to wrap my mind around dozens of individual rules just to understand how the game worked and how to make a good character build. I've lived with the constant load of previous save games and restarts from scratch because my characters weren't as good as I wanted them to be. I've gone through the constant maximizing of equipable inventory, always analyzing the pros ans cons of each mathematical solution that a set of items would give me. And you know what?

None of that made me any smarter than I already am!

Memorizing a set of rules doesn't make you more inteligent, it just makes you use your memory. Choosing the best equipment isn't a test of your IQ, it's just basic maths on what is better on a given situation. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with, I absolutely love the micromanagement involved, even if most people find it tedious.

But I'm also aware that none of that challenges your grey matter. It's just a matter of understanding the rules and frankly, I don't begrudge people who prefer to pick up a game and just start playing straight away, instead of spending several hours around a game manual and a sheet of paper figuring out a good build for them.

[termokanden]

Not all rules are cumbersome and unnecessary garbage. For some of us, part of the game is understanding and using the rules to our advantage. Naturally this is not the type of game you just pick up and play. I don't see what's wrong with that though, there are literally thousands of games that require no effort to learn.



Some of us had fun planning an epic character build in NWN for example, and then actually seeing it work. It does require thought too, by the way.

[vashts1985]

weger007 wrote...

Hi there Bioware.

I have played every title Bioware released over the years since MDK 2 (With exception of Sonic Chronicles).

I have to give express to my awe for ME2. Bioware set the standards for the RPG genre for so many years, and while I always loved the games, all those years Bioware had failed to get rid of old burdens that seemed keep them from really flying..

These burdens where the levelling grind, the euipment management and the looting, that always got in the way of immersion and story telling. Biowares Partner, Obsidian, hat gotten it right long ago (i.e. with Baldurs Gate Spinoff "Planescape Torment"), but Obsidian never had the PR power to get into the Mainstream market with their own ideas. They always had the better stories though.

Now, as i have played ME2, I am amazed. The ME2 Team successfully identified almost all the obstacles to story telling, burdening Bioware Games since Baldurs Gate, and finally learned to tell the story right..

This Step required a huge amount of courage. I really bow to that. Because I am sure that there are millions of fans out there still to afraid to accept the changes you made. (I just have to read some of the entries in these forums).

You made the PC RPG/Action game into a story telling platform that now directly competes with the movies on level ground (if the gaming industry/ea-bioware would choose to) .

Dont listen to those insecure nerds that still feel frightened out there in the unknown. They are frightened of all change. And they are probably the loudest. So the fanboys of levelling, looting and equipment will hit you hard. But in the end they will come around once they get enthralled by the vivid characters and story telling you delivered with this title.

If I could express my opinion as a loyal customer: Thats where you could hit Blizzard hard. I know you know that. What I see from SWTOR I am convinced you are following that direction, but I am also afraid of the conservative gamers. They will have to be dragged into the future of gaming by their hairs. Please do so. They will be thankfull for it.

Thanks!

its actually refreshing to see this outlook on ME2 after the mess that was the past couple weeks sense release.

i have absolutely no problems with the mechanics that were used in ME2, intact, they were as you say, progressive. i do have to criticize however, and not the means used, but the lack of selection that has been implemented. true, the micro managing inventory and character progression could be tedious at times, it always lends to a vast selection of development and gear, that just is not present currently in ME2. weather or not this was an intended design to allow for more selection through future updates aside, the initial release just feels less than fulfilling for those of us that enjoy such genres.

being a gamer that enjoys all types of genres and game types, i cant see all these "RPG vs Shooter" arguments without thinking "Whatever", but as the game stands, bioware is gonna need to really keep up with their little "small content updates" model or the game is just gonna lose my interest. that said, i cant honestly say i have not enjoyed the 3 previous playthrough's, and with the new stuff being released in a few hours im sure i will enjoy the vanguard i just made.

[Ezohiguma]

The characters have skills, skills improve with levels, levels are gained with experience. Just like IRL. Take driving a car. The longer and the more you drive the more experience you have. Levels do exactly that job in games like ME2.



You can't really get rid of the levels anyway. Otherwise you'd start with everything right away. And that is snoretastic. Or do you really want super gun and super armor right from the start?



I don't see any level grind in ME2 or any other Bioware game to date.



You want some level grind to whine about?



Play any random Asian MMORPG. Now that's level grind.

[Lusitanum]

termokanden wrote...

Some of us had fun planning an epic character build in NWN for example, and then actually seeing it work. It does require thought too, by the way.

I did have fun doing that too. That doesn't mean that all the trial and error leading up to that (in part thanks to the weak manual) didn't make it frustrating. And even then, it's always better to not have to spend a weekend studying a ruleset before playing.

And no, that's not "thought", it's just planning around a set of rules to maximize a character. It's just a puzzle. A very fun puzzle for people like me and you, but a puzzle nonetheless.