73 réponses à ce sujet

[weger007]

@Draguzul: Acually please dont flame Mister Mage. I dont think you should presume his intentions. His objections seem to be earnest. Id rather have a discussion than a flamewar.



Thanks for your support otherwise.

[Draguzul]

Mister Mage wrote...

Draguzul wrote...
Whats wrong with that you ask? He made it pretty clear, he wants a dull, mindless excursion into the realm of customize everything. He wants to play the avid role of quartermaster, doling out rewards that he thinks benefits his characters - he wants to search for that ultra hidden gear, numbingly pouring hour after hour into the relentless pursuit for the best of the best!

God forbid a game give you all meat and no trimmings - I played this game to experience the story - a story is what I got. I'm very glad I didn't have to deal with a clunky inventory system that was always bursting or having to deck out my crew in the latest/greatest gear. It was focused, centralized on the story, my squad mates and I liked every second of it. Few flaws here and there, credits being one of them, lack of side quest content, but I'll live.

Most of the people like Mister Mage, seem to come in with the resume, well I played D&D tabletop, I know what an RPG is. Get off your high horse, come back to reality, then we can have a good discussion on why RPG is not what you think it is because of some misguided fantasy of what your youth used to be.

...Um, I think you have the wrong guy.

No definitely talking to you as per your initial post in this thread and the followup about Mass Effect 2 nearly turning into an interactive movie(you made this remark in your second post) - while I don't agree with the notion of the person you responded to, I don't neccessarily see the problem with this game being about the story. People had a real problem with Xenosaga when it came out, or even the latest Metal Gear Solid - I don't mind the breather and I like the story elements if done properly.

We've come to the point now with technology and graphics to make these scenes worth viewing and watching as most characters have emotions they can wear on their faces.

I suppose it could come off as confusing considering I just naturally assumed like all the other misguided forum goers, that you would come in with a pedigree of why you're right and the majority is wrong. I do apologize for the assumptions, obviously we know what I am.

Modifié par Draguzul, 09 février 2010 - 06:12 .

[weger007]

Mister Mage wrote...
  Where in Mass Effect are concepts like this employed?  Where is story atmosphere through gaming used in Mass Effect 2?  You seem to applaud this aspect of the game.  Where is it?

If you read former posts, you might remember me saying you should drop all game aspects that do not support story telling. 

The Inventory and loot system of ME1 was such a thing, It broke immersion. so you are left with two possibble decisions: 
either you should implement something the way I described (as part of  story telling) or you just drop this game aspect.

For ME2 Bioware seemed to have choosen to drop the inventory for the sake of story telling. This I applaud.
My point was and now I am repeating myself: If it doesnt tell a story, drop it. Remember?

[Mister Mage]

Draguzul wrote...

Mister Mage wrote...

Draguzul wrote...
Whats wrong with that you ask? He made it pretty clear, he wants a dull, mindless excursion into the realm of customize everything. He wants to play the avid role of quartermaster, doling out rewards that he thinks benefits his characters - he wants to search for that ultra hidden gear, numbingly pouring hour after hour into the relentless pursuit for the best of the best!

God forbid a game give you all meat and no trimmings - I played this game to experience the story - a story is what I got. I'm very glad I didn't have to deal with a clunky inventory system that was always bursting or having to deck out my crew in the latest/greatest gear. It was focused, centralized on the story, my squad mates and I liked every second of it. Few flaws here and there, credits being one of them, lack of side quest content, but I'll live.

Most of the people like Mister Mage, seem to come in with the resume, well I played D&D tabletop, I know what an RPG is. Get off your high horse, come back to reality, then we can have a good discussion on why RPG is not what you think it is because of some misguided fantasy of what your youth used to be.

...Um, I think you have the wrong guy.

No definitely talking to you as per your initial post in this thread and the followup about Mass Effect 2 nearly turning into an interactive movie(you made this remark in your second post) - while I don't agree with the notion of the person you responded to, I don't neccessarily see the problem with this game being about the story. People had a real problem with Xenosaga when it came out, or even the latest Metal Gear Solid - I don't mind the breather and I like the story elements if done properly.

We've come to the point now with technology and graphics to make these scenes worth viewing and watching as most characters have emotions they can wear on their faces.

I suppose it could come off as confusing considering I just naturally assumed like all the other misguided forum goers, that you would come in with a pedigree of why you're right and the majority is wrong. I do apologize for the assumptions, obviously we know what I am.

I think there's a definite disconnect between what you're getting out of my posts and what I'm trying to convey.  I also think you're pidgeonholing my intentions into a mold against which you have a serious axe to grind, and I really think you've got the wrong guy for that job.

I'm generally opposed to the "More RPG in ME3" posts, or at least their idea of the correct implementation.  While I agree with the idea that the game could use some more thought, more strategy, and more puzzles, I'm not really in the "more loot, more level grinding, bring back the old inventory" mindset.  Again, please note the parts of my first post on the page, which you apparently did notice and read, where I note that I don't think of tedium as gameplay.

I simply think gameplay in a game is paramount.  There are a lot of people in the ME2 is Perfection camp that seem to see story and story progression as always trumping gameplay.  This idea is the one that I somewhat misconstrued in the quoted post.  Granted, I love the classic RPGs.  My favorite games put combat on a grid.  But I'm not here to push everything into that mold, I'm just hoping to make the point that gameplay is important in a game, and I want to note what I think are issues with the current system.  I really think you need to re-read my original post, because I thought I made it very clear that the ideas employed by Bioware here are almost al good ones, and they just need some tweaking(and maybe better enemy AI) to really shine.

I am happy with my purchase of Mass Effect 2, by the way.  It's just that my opinion actually doesn't fit into either of the major extremist camps, and so I have been accused of filling the roles of both.

[Mister Mage]

weger007 wrote...

Mister Mage wrote...
  Where in Mass Effect are concepts like this employed?  Where is story atmosphere through gaming used in Mass Effect 2?  You seem to applaud this aspect of the game.  Where is it?

If you read former posts, you might remember me saying you should drop all game aspects that do not support story telling. 

The Inventory and loot system of ME1 was such a thing, It broke immersion. so you are left with two possibble decisions: 
either you should implement something the way I described (as part of  story telling) or you just drop this game aspect.

For ME2 Bioware seemed to have choosen to drop the inventory for the sake of story telling. This I applaud.
My point was and now I am repeating myself: If it doesnt tell a story, drop it. Remember?

I actually agree with a lot of the core ideas here, but I don't agree with your final conclusion.  Yes, the inventory system was a chore, and the current implementation is a good deal better than the original one.

The problem with the original inventory system was that it was horribly tedious.  Selling equipment or breaking it down was tedium, and you weren't really playing a game so much as having a lot of extra padding added by doing what was essentially a chore.  I don't see this as a storytelling issue, it's a game-stopping issue.

The new inventory system deals with a lot of the problems.  Less time in a menu, more time actually playing.  I think they got a bit zealous, though.  There is an inventory, it is just on the ship.  I think they intended to give us more, but we mainly ended up just choosing different Heavy Weapons.  I'd like a loadout with different guns, that feel different when you shoot them and that have different effects.  This is your arsenal.  Upgrading the weapons automatically is fine and good, but an arsenal with a few "equally good, but better at different jobs" guns would be the best solution, because it adds back the one benefit of the old inventory system without introducing any of the game-stopping tedium.  Whether it is choosing between guns, or customizing one gun, I think my Shepard should be able to build toward a playstyle that is distinct to other Soldier Shepards.

[Lusitanum]

Draguzul wrote...

No definitely talking to you as per your initial post in this thread and the followup about Mass Effect 2 nearly turning into an interactive movie(you made this remark in your second post) - while I don't agree with the notion of the person you responded to

It's just that you were first criticizing bjdbwea and his idea that we were all playing "pew-pew" games, so you retorted that he just wanted to play quartermaster in his games. But then you turned to Mister Mage who's been focusing more on the "storytelling vs. gameplay elements" of the game. I don't think he ever made any of "ME2 is a brainless shooters for the dumb masses" kind of comment so far.

[weger007]

I do think we agree in general.



as I posted before, I cant see an inventors system working without tedium when there are 12 characters to equip. It would just be too much.



I personaly, in synch with my expressed ideas hear, could imagine more weapons handed down as rewards for completed missions or by special interaction with the characters.



But, there is always something that could have made it into a game.

But there is a quote that helps me decide about the qualtity of a game even though it is about airplanes:



Perfection is finally attained not when there is no longer anything to add but when there is no longer anything to take away, when a body has been stripped down to its nakedness.



Antoine du Saint-Exupery

[Frotality]

loot, leveling, and what not is exactly what allows immersion....

obviously we have very different means of assuming a role.

if the future of gaming is simplified, unnatural flow of gameplay, and constantly released little baby DLCs (which it probably will be whether bioware likes it or not), then...ill have to try and enjoy what little is left until then.

[Lusitanum]

weger007 wrote...

as I posted before, I cant see an inventors system working without tedium when there are 12 characters to equip. It would just be too much.

Main reason why I pretty much chose one set of squadmates to follow me throught the whole game in ME1: the constant swaping of the best equipment to new party members was a hassle. At least in ME2 it takes half a minute, when you don't feel like using the best equipment that the game already set up for you.

weger007 wrote...

I personaly, in synch with my expressed ideas hear, could imagine more weapons handed down as rewards for completed missions or by special interaction with the characters.

Yeah, that's one big downer in the game. When I heard that ME2 would have 19 different weapons I thought it refered to weapon types and not the actual number of guns in the game. And so did many other people who started wondering about which weapons types we would get on these forums.

Well, here's to hoping that we'll get more goodies through DLC. I mean, we've just got a new shotgun and armor, didn't we?

[Mister Mage]

weger007 wrote...

I do think we agree in general.

as I posted before, I cant see an inventors system working without tedium when there are 12 characters to equip. It would just be too much.

I actually think having the party members handle themselves, and have each work differently, would be fine.  The issue is more with ME and MY character than the ones in my party.  Also, even if it was equipping the party, all weapons should return to the "ship inventory" at mission complete, as it does now, so you are only equipping 2 party members at a time maximum.

I personaly, in synch with my expressed ideas hear, could imagine more weapons handed down as rewards for completed missions or by special interaction with the characters.

But, there is always something that could have made it into a game.
But there is a quote that helps me decide about the qualtity of a game even though it is about airplanes:

Perfection is finally attained not when there is no longer anything to add but when there is no longer anything to take away, when a body has been stripped down to its nakedness.

Antoine du Saint-Exupery

I've actually read this quote.  This idea is about simplicity in execution, though, and there are a few issues with that.  For one, when you cut away superfluous elements, you do run the danger of cutting away too much, and catching what is a worthwhile portion of the experience.  In this second title, they did a lot of good in cutting away things that wren't real gameplay, but the problem arose when they were too overzealous.  By taking away choices about how Shepard plays, they took away our ability to define "our" Shepard beyond class and a dichotomy of good cop/bad cop.  More than that, they took away an element of strategy and tactics.

Now, they did remove a lot of tedium that gets carried over from genre convention, but what we need to really perfect the model they've proposed is an improved set of choices that affect not only story, but how our Shepard inhabits and interacts with the world. They've done this in conversations, but not in combat.  Now, I'm not going to say that Mass Effect 1's character-building and equipment system was anywhere near good.  That can be scrapped in its entirety.  It's just that the ME2 system needs to be beefed up, and it's actually a relatively easy fix on the equipment end.

[weger007]

Seriously, I really wonder what is wrong with guy like bjdbwea or Frotality.

I simply enjoyed the game. If you didnt, well your bad. Maybe the game wasnt for you?

I didnt say every game has to be like ME2. In fact, nobody said so. I said that this game was about story telling. and it did deliver that better than any game before. In fact it is the first game that has done so. Isnt that great?

But I hear no arguments just ranting from the cwl d00ds..

Not every game can get every aspect right. It wouldnt be a good game then. You haver to focus on what you wnat your product to be. They did that.

But you guys want everything.

Tell you what fellows. You want everything perfect. That costs tons of money. To get this kind of money games are mainstreamed. So whose fault is it that games get mainstreamed?

The guys that worked their as$ off days and nights to get a great game out and .. oh actually want to get payed for it?

Or those ungreatefull guys like you crying for more like hungry chicks?

Modifié par weger007, 09 février 2010 - 07:13 .

[Lusitanum]

weger007 wrote...

But you guys want everything.

Tell you what fellows. You want everything perfect. That costs tons of money. To get this kind of money games are mainstreamed. So whose fault is it that games get mainstreamed?

The guys that worked their as$ off days and nights to get a great game out and .. oh actually want to get payed for it?

Or those ungreatefull guys like you crying for more like hungry chicks?

Actually, they don't want everything, they just want the same damned game over and over again. Yes, everything, even the crappy graphics and the lack of voice acting because "it makes you use your imagination, which you idiots can't do that because you're stoopid".

Also, you don't need to censor the word "ass".

[nteger]

I agree with Mister Mage. It was good that Bioware cut out a lot of aspects that detracted from gameplay and story, but I would like to see some more depth. If you don't want that, don't worry because new weapons get automatically equipped. It kinda pisses me off when it happens, but I can usually change it right away. They can add more to the game and make it more fun for those of us who like depth, and they already have systems in place for those who don't want it.

[Mister Mage]

Lusitanum wrote...

weger007 wrote...

But you guys want everything.

Tell you what fellows. You want everything perfect. That costs tons of money. To get this kind of money games are mainstreamed. So whose fault is it that games get mainstreamed?

The guys that worked their as$ off days and nights to get a great game out and .. oh actually want to get payed for it?

Or those ungreatefull guys like you crying for more like hungry chicks?

Actually, they don't want everything, they just want the same damned game over and over again. Yes, everything, even the crappy graphics and the lack of voice acting because "it makes you use your imagination, which you idiots can't do that because you're stoopid".

Also, you don't need to censor the word "ass".

*blink*

Well, I'm not sure where those last two posts of sarcasm, hostility, and stereotypes came from.  I hardly appreciate the sentiment.

[weger007]

It was not about you Mister Mage , but about onother poster you might mave imissed.

[weger007]

I admit I had jumped to bjdbwea thread and was really annoyed by all the ranting there.

Also at the same time came the Frotaliti post with more ranting.



Hence this Post.

[Mister Mage]

weger007 wrote...

It was not about you Mister Mage , but about onother poster you might mave imissed.

I've seen them.  While I hardly agree with either's sentiments in their entirety, I didn't see anything worthy of attracting ire.

Modifié par Mister Mage, 09 février 2010 - 07:30 .

[Lusitanum]

Mister Mage wrote...

Lusitanum wrote...

weger007 wrote...

But you guys want everything.

Tell you what fellows. You want everything perfect. That costs tons of money. To get this kind of money games are mainstreamed. So whose fault is it that games get mainstreamed?

The guys that worked their as$ off days and nights to get a great game out and .. oh actually want to get payed for it?

Or those ungreatefull guys like you crying for more like hungry chicks?

Actually, they don't want everything, they just want the same damned game over and over again. Yes, everything, even the crappy graphics and the lack of voice acting because "it makes you use your imagination, which you idiots can't do that because you're stoopid".

Also, you don't need to censor the word "ass".

*blink*

Well, I'm not sure where those last two posts of sarcasm, hostility, and stereotypes came from.  I hardly appreciate the sentiment.

Like weger007 said, this wasn't directed at you, it's just my take on a lot of RPG elitists that say "RPGs were like this back in the day so they should stay like that for the rest of eternity so they can stagnate and die because nobody wants to play them anymore. You know, like adventure games".

I just get really annoyed when I see that and need to vent out a little. And, incidentally, I'm feeling much better now.

[weger007]

Yeah, I get some renegade points for that.

[Mister Mage]

Lusitanum wrote...

Mister Mage wrote...

Lusitanum wrote...

weger007 wrote...

But you guys want everything.

Tell you what fellows. You want everything perfect. That costs tons of money. To get this kind of money games are mainstreamed. So whose fault is it that games get mainstreamed?

The guys that worked their as$ off days and nights to get a great game out and .. oh actually want to get payed for it?

Or those ungreatefull guys like you crying for more like hungry chicks?

Actually, they don't want everything, they just want the same damned game over and over again. Yes, everything, even the crappy graphics and the lack of voice acting because "it makes you use your imagination, which you idiots can't do that because you're stoopid".

Also, you don't need to censor the word "ass".

*blink*

Well, I'm not sure where those last two posts of sarcasm, hostility, and stereotypes came from.  I hardly appreciate the sentiment.

Like weger007 said, this wasn't directed at you, it's just my take on a lot of RPG elitists that say "RPGs were like this back in the day so they should stay like that for the rest of eternity so they can stagnate and die because nobody wants to play them anymore. You know, like adventure games".

I just get really annoyed when I see that and need to vent out a little. And, incidentally, I'm feeling much better now.

To be completely honest, though, I love those games.  And if one like that was released today, you can bet that I wouldn't mind in the slightest.

In fact, such games ARE released today, and I *DO* enjoy them greatly.  You(and a lot of people here) really should check out the indie RPG scene sometime.

[weger007]

Mister Mage wrote...
They've done this in conversations, but not in combat.  Now, I'm not
going to say that Mass Effect 1's character-building and equipment
system was anywhere near good.  That can be scrapped in its entirety.
 It's just that the ME2 system needs to be beefed up, and it's actually a
relatively easy fix on the equipment end.
.

I just wanted to answer to this before I have to go.
I do think the directions taken in ME2 are great. 
BW didnt have to refactor most of the game for the secon part. They could have just built on the ME1. The fact that they are driven to make the game better with every time is very assuring for me. 
Especially when you go back to the first titles and see how far they have come witth ME2 allready. 

The whole point of this thread was to show that there was a direction they took with this title. The direction was storytelling. It could be that with ME3 they surprise us with a totally new direction. I am courious.

Being a Star Wars fan I totally look forward to SWTOR. The next natural step is to keep that level of storytelling and transcend to multiplayer. As much as I loved ME3 it would even have been better if those companions would have been my RL buddies.

Thats what i am foremost hoping for.

Cu

[Lusitanum]

Mister Mage wrote...

To be completely honest, though, I love those games.  And if one like that was released today, you can bet that I wouldn't mind in the slightest.

In fact, such games ARE released today, and I *DO* enjoy them greatly.  You(and a lot of people here) really should check out the indie RPG scene sometime.

Don't know anything about the indie scene, honestly, but I also enjoy old school RPGs. I can enjoy Fallout, Baldur's Gate, Diablo and they're a lot of fun, but I just can't accept the idiots that act like close-minded old men that just go "back in the old days we didn't have none of them "exciting combat modes" and "full-voiced cast" and we did just fine. If you wanted your main character to have any kind of personality, you'd have to make it up yourself, and play it in your head like a big baby that still plays with plastic dools at the age of 30. Ah, those were the days, when combat was all about sending your guy against another guy and then lean back and go for a cup of coffee while the game decided if it would roll the statistics in your favor or not while praying that the AI didn't feel like ignoring your commands or shoot you in the back of the head."

Old-style gameplay? Fine, I can enjoy that too, I wouldn't enjoy Dragon Age as much as I do if it didn't feel so much like Baldur's Gate. Now, doing the same crap over and over again because you don't accept any deviation from the same template? Now that's just stupid.

[Kosmiker]

If you don't mind I would like to add a few thoughts on this thread (and forgive me for some misspelling).



The way I see it, this sequel necessarily had to bring a different concept to the inventory system, especially if we take in consideration that this game is supposed to be a console exclusive as well. The less possible tedious system had to be found.



Back in ME1 we had a controversial inventory system, but I always considered that the problem wasn't exactly on the inventory itself but on the loads of loot you could pick on a single mission. “ Less quantity more quality” loot back then would have meant less micromanagement... and I think micromanagement on a xbox (or any other console) must be something to avoid, I understand that. But since I played on PC it didn’t affected me much. So I kind of enjoyed it, I confess.

With that said, I could agree a change had to be done. Fine by me. So where are we now? Right now we have an entirely different system. Let’s call it pre-mission "inventory", where loot has been removed overall (except for some blueprints/credits/resources) and gun/armor updates are now inserted into the "Skills tree", being this last one target of a major change as well. Smaller and more straight to the point (streamlined if you prefer).

Let's not be mistaken, this is a HUGE change, for the best and for the worst. For one thing, we can now rest assured not to lose more than the necessary time to pick up our gear and get ready for our missions. So where’s the problem you might ask?

Well the problem starts when the action sequences (battlefields) are streamlined as well because of the overall system. Let me give some examples:

1) Because you no longer have armor updates that boosts your defenses against different hazards, like toxic or fire, most likely you won’t find many hazards on a battle scene. They have been cut off.



2) Skills like Decryption or Electronics didn’t make their cut on this skill tree. In consequence rarely (or maybe never) will you find alternative routes inside the same level design, there’s only one path to follow (if I’m wrong here please correct me but that was my impression).



3) Gun updates suffered a similar faith as of the armor updates, you no longer have overheat so forget the heatsink, ammos are inserted in the skill tree (by removing other skills), scanners were pretty useless back then but accuracy updates those I miss them. You got the point..



So I think you know where I’m trying to get… basically this system, like someone already told, is good but needs to beef up. Otherwise we’re losing not only the RPG elements, but part of the battlefield as well.

I think I’m already writing too much so I won’t elaborate much more.

I just ask to Bioware to keep up the good work because I’m sure even these points weren’t forgotten.. maybe just delayed.

[weger007]

Dear Kosmiker, I hope you read through the thread.



As I said:



Perfection is finally attained not when there is no longer anything to add but when there is no longer anything to take away, when a body has been stripped down to its nakedness.



Adding too much into a game can ruin it the same way as leaving too much away.



Actually I am just bumping my thread because there are so many rantings on top otherwise.