245 réponses à ce sujet

[DigitalMaster37]

Divulse456 wrote...

For me, Tali is number 1. I loved Liara as a character, and her knowledge of the Protheans was, of course, very important to the main quest. But Tali also helped with evidence against Saren. Since both are so important it has to come down purely to character. Tali wins hands down. Liara was a hot fling. Tali suffered in silence while developing a true admiration of and affection for Shepard. Every galaxy saving hero needs a true love, and Tali even left the migrant fleet to be with him.

red sand much?

It is clear you are bias, because your logic fails before it starts, lol.

Tali had information on the Saren and Geth link, This provided evidence to strip Saren of Spectre status. That is all. There are many other ways that could have been done. For one you have many other links in the game that we could have went to for a second source for this same information we got from tali.

And just for more proof on the matter, once we got that info from Tali, she is no longer vital in any way. Liara proves her worth through both games and a comic. Tali doens't even come close to that.

So even if I gave you a point for Tali and her uncovering of Saren, if you match that up to EVERYTHING Liara did, you have a complete blowout for who is more important. Liara wins and to think you even have an argument is becoming laughable.

[Justin2k]

Personally I believe Liara is a minor character who has been phased out. I don't understand how she would be vital to ME 3's storyline although they may bring her back for her fanbase (which seems to be considerably smaller than that of Tali, Ashley, Kaiden and Miranda).



As for the most vital squad member, I am of the belief that Shepard would save the world by himself if he had to in all honesty. He is the only member of the squad that has done anything by himself. Everything else is teamwork. Noone really stands out as more influential than the other allies, but Shepard does.

[Cutlass Jack]

Deltaboy37-1 wrote...

But to assume that Tali was the only possible source to reveal Matriarch Benezia's involvement is a dream to say the least. Matriarch Benezia was revealed once you arrived at Noveria, so if Tali was not in the game, eventually you would have found out about Benezia which in turn would have revealed Liara which in turn would have brought us back to square one which is Liara's importance. You amaze me at your logic trying to shoehorn in Tali's importance as game breakin which is clearly is not.

But Tali's info was critical to you being made a Spectre in the first place. No Spectre=No ship, no Authority, no Resources. You couldn't even land on Noveria and carry a weapon without Spectre status. Further that Noveria lead comes from the council after you start working for them.

Without Tali you wouldn't be a Spectre and Liara would be dead. Hence you'd be in no position to save the galaxy.

Note I'm not saying Liara is unimportant, but there were plenty of Asari with the ability to muck around in your head. Shiala, in fact provided a far more crucial piece of the puzzle.

[DigitalMaster37]

MisterShine wrote...

Deltaboy37-1 wrote...
Without Tali it is very plausible that there would have been another way.

What way?

And saying that something else could've come up could just as easily be countered by saying that any other Asari could've done the Vulcan mind meld with Shepard to get the information Liara did.

edit:

Matriarch Benezia was revealed once you arrived at Noveria

And how would you even get on Noveria if you were never made a spectre in the first place

Okay let me play along with you.

What way?

And saying that something else could've come up could just as easily be countered by saying that any other Asari could've done the Vulcan mind meld with Shepard to get the information Liara did.

Even if what you say was true, then another asari might have been able to mind meld...NOT. Liara is a prothean expert, not many asari can say this. so that refutes your first claim. Secondly, lets just for the sake of example say you had a point. Then Liara is still valuable because she found and rescued Shepherds body... are you gonna say Tali "would have" done the same??? I think not as she DID NOT do the same. In fact she was too busy running her own new team and NOT thinking about Shepherd.

And how would you even get on Noveria if you were never made a spectre in the first place

Find a ship and plot the course.
Please try again.

[Society]

1) Liara, rescuing the galaxy from behind the scenes by saving Shep

2) Miranda, headed up the project to ressurect Shep

3) Mordin, created the only means to survive the seeker swarms (aside from a bubble)

4) Jack, Inadvertantly saves Shep by going absolutely bonkers on the entire prison station. If she didn't clear the path there's NO way Shep was making it back off that rig alive.

[Rm80]

Kaiden......who else was going to hug that big bomb?

and don't say Ashley, my Shep needs her by his side


ye Kelly is important too; if she did not feed the fishes they would die and that would devastate my Shep and make him in no condition to figth the reapers.....


on a more serious note I would say that most party members play a more or less important part in the game to make them vital for Sheps sucess 

Modifié par Rm80, 09 février 2010 - 07:05 .

[Girchou]

Geth/collectors/reapers

without them there would be no mission.

[DigitalMaster37]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

Deltaboy37-1 wrote...

But to assume that Tali was the only possible source to reveal Matriarch Benezia's involvement is a dream to say the least. Matriarch Benezia was revealed once you arrived at Noveria, so if Tali was not in the game, eventually you would have found out about Benezia which in turn would have revealed Liara which in turn would have brought us back to square one which is Liara's importance. You amaze me at your logic trying to shoehorn in Tali's importance as game breakin which is clearly is not.

But Tali's info was critical to you being made a Spectre in the first place. No Spectre=No ship, no Authority, no Resources. You couldn't even land on Noveria and carry a weapon without Spectre status. Further that Noveria lead comes from the council after you start working for them.

Without Tali you wouldn't be a Spectre and Liara would be dead. Hence you'd be in no position to save the galaxy.

Note I'm not saying Liara is unimportant, but there were plenty of Asari with the ability to muck around in your head. Shiala, in fact provided a far more crucial piece of the puzzle.

Okay your trying to go from the idea of importance chronologically, that is incorrect and still Liara will best Tali in that argument, because you are assuming we could and would not have found liara. For the record Councilman Udina told us her whereabouts, not Tali. good try though. Your trying to say without Tali there would have been no information available to incriminate Saren. If you look at the lore of this game, you would know all we needed to do is hire a Salarian information broker and we could have found whatever evidence we needed (if your keeping with the lore) and that is without making up stories. You would have to make up a story to prove the possibility of saving the galaxy withou Liara.

But overall vital-ness to the entire mission of Shepherd crossing both games, you have no foundation or valid argument to say Tali is even in the same ballpark as Liara in her role in saving the galaxy.

In fact Ashley/Kaiden does more than her as they potentially gave their life.

Liara is clearly the most important character aside from Shepherd in this game.

Lastly, your first statement is clearly why I said everyone was important, beecause if it wasn't for Garrus Tali would be molested by that turian and dead somewhere in an alley in the lower wards, so what ya gotta say about that???

Modifié par Deltaboy37-1, 09 février 2010 - 07:07 .

[Cutlass Jack]

Deltaboy37-1 wrote...

Okay your trying to go from the idea of chronologically, that is false and still Liara will best Tali in that argument, because you are assuming we could and would not have found liara. For the record Councilman Udina told us her whereabouts, not Tali. good try though.

But overall vital-ness to the entire mission of Shepherd crossing both games, you have no foundation or valid argument to say Tali is even in the same ballpark as Liara in her role in saving the galaxy.

In fact Ashley/Kaiden does more than her as they potentially gave their life.

Liara is clearly the most important character aside from Shepherd in this game.

I'm guessing you missed the council saying: "Well forward all leads to the ambasador" after you gain Spectre status? Udina knew absolutely nothing on his own. He's a diplomat.

TIM would have gotten your body whether or not Liara was involved. Miranda was equally involved with that (if you read that story) Liara was a tool he chose to use towards that end. He could have just as easilly gone to Tali.

Note I'm not saying Liara is unimportant. Of course she was But the only critical role she serves is recognizing a planet from a picture in Shep's head. And she never would have had that opportunity if she wasn't rescued. And Shepard would never been able to act on it without being a Spectre.

[Cutlass Jack]

Deltaboy37-1 wrote...

Lastly, your first statement is clearly why I said everyone was important, beecause if it wasn't for Garrus Tali would be molested by that turian and dead somewhere in an alley in the lower wards, so what ya gotta say about that???

We already covered that. Garrus wasn't essential. There were two paths to rescuing Tali. Shadow Broker>Wrex, and Harkin>Garrus. Hell even Emily Wong points you at Fist.

[DigitalMaster37]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

Deltaboy37-1 wrote...

Okay your trying to go from the idea of chronologically, that is false and still Liara will best Tali in that argument, because you are assuming we could and would not have found liara. For the record Councilman Udina told us her whereabouts, not Tali. good try though.

But overall vital-ness to the entire mission of Shepherd crossing both games, you have no foundation or valid argument to say Tali is even in the same ballpark as Liara in her role in saving the galaxy.

In fact Ashley/Kaiden does more than her as they potentially gave their life.

Liara is clearly the most important character aside from Shepherd in this game.

I'm guessing you missed the council saying: "Well forward all leads to the ambasador" after you gain Spectre status? Udina knew absolutely nothing on his own. He's a diplomat.

TIM would have gotten your body whether or not Liara was involved. Miranda was equally involved with that (if you read that story) Liara was a tool he chose to use towards that end. He could have just as easilly gone to Tali.

you clearly didn't read it. Cerberus hired Liara to secure his body because she-Liara was on his trail. Try reading it again and you will see the error of your logic, Miranda would not have found his body. Read issue #2 and come back to me with what you find, trust me Miranda would have done nothing to find Shepherd and secure his body, only Liara could have done so. It's also explained.

Note I'm not saying Liara is unimportant. Of course she was But the only critical role she serves is recognizing a planet from a picture in Shep's head. And she never would have had that opportunity if she wasn't rescued. And Shepard would never been able to act on it without being a Spectre.

I won't even comment on this, because it is a repeat of your incorrect logic from a precious post and it's pointless for me to reiterate my logic that refutes yours. You're tying to much to him being a spectre. He sure COULD have rescued her, you don't need spectre status to land on a mining planet.

Modifié par Deltaboy37-1, 09 février 2010 - 07:14 .

[Arcadionn]

Well in all sense of fairness... Without Liara we would not know about the vision's basic meaning, our body would be in the posession of the collectors (which means no ME2), no finding Ilos, and well all she did in the Redemption story; all in all, she's critical. BUT



Tali: Allows us to leave citadel as spectre and find liara, which in turn allows liara to not be captured.



Miranda: Only person brilliant enough to rebuild Shepard.



Joker : Without his piloting skills we'd be dead or much less alive (Landing on Ilos, escaping collector ship (second time lolol)



Mordin: no science = no landing on horizon



Harbinger : No reaper danger = no need to shep to be rebuilt. so points to the bad guys for this one.

[Giogiogio4]

I say Tali. not because im a fan but for the facts



Without Talis info shepard wouldnt be a Specter and Saren wouldve won. Saren wouldve been able to do whatever whenever and shepard wouldnt even have left the citidel after how bad his mission was and lossing the prothen gadget.



Liara helped out with all the prothen findings and her insight was very helpful. But as i seen in ME2 she was a posser just trying to get away from her mommy. And a traitor. Tali helped Shepard thru the entire ME games. without her the ship wouldnt be at its top performance.



Liara came with shepard to fufill her little obbsesion with the protheans. She quickly got over shepard dieing and moved on.( shes young and thats what kids do). While tali was helping in ME2 Liara was sitting in a office fulfilling her own agenda when the the FATE of all was at stake.



In the end Tali has more pride in her work and duty and would follow shepard and die for him anyday even if the mission is called a suicide mission,



While Liara gave up on her passion about the prothens ,Infomation and tech she couldve used to pay off any debt if she followed shepard in ME2. She came in ME1,got what she needed. got rid of her mom and scored with shepard. He died she moved on rather fast and didnt even offer to help. Hell, even when you see her in ME2 she uses him to fufill her agenda.



Shepard honors his CREW. and from what i seen Liara isnt fit to be in it. She would be th elast char i would trust behind shepard.

[Schneidend]

Joker. He plugged in the overlord.

[Cutlass Jack]

Shavon wrote...

Cutlass, I doubt Miranda would have been able to do it. There's something about the personal motivation Liara would have to fins Shepard that Miranda lacks. This and Liara's biotics make the crucial difference. Miranda is competent in her own right, but she would not be able to pull off what Liara is doing in Redemption.

Regardless of her role in Shepard's body, locating Ilos is still the most important thing she has done prior to ME2, without that knowledge, the galaxy would have been wiped, making Liara once again the most crucial.

I think Miranda would find a way. This is Miranda we're talking about (and for the record I can't stand her) And yes, personal motivation is important, and if Liara wasn't available, I'm sure he would have gone to Tali or Garrus. TIM would have gotten your body somehow. I don't like him either, but I do believe this.

But I still feel she would in no way be in position to recognize Ilos if you didn't have the information Tali brings. You simply would not have been in position to do what you do in ME1 without Spectre status, Saren losing his status, and being pointed at Liara due to her intel.

[Kyle Dei]

Deltaboy, your opinion is noted but everybody has given enough proof that Tali is a crucial member above Liara. You are stating an opinon, not a fact. Give your own information and points of view as to why Liara is more important instead of trying to retcon the game's own storyline.



Without Tali, Matriarch Benezia's voiceprint would never have been played to the council, Saren would also have the resources and information of the Council to further the reapers end. The voiceprint also allowed Shep to become a Spectre. It also helped the Council in giving Shep the information needed in tracking down Saren. You could leave finding Liara till after Virmire, giving her a whole 1 planet of play time, not much seeing as Tali was with you from the Citadel.



Liara only managed to recover Shep's body because of the information trade going on in Mass Effect. TIM even mentions Liara working for the Shadow Broker, not against. This means at the time Liara was probably trading information and not directly looking for Shep.



Delta, your 'facts' are based upon assumption. The plot speaks for itself when Tali was the turning point in the first game. Without her you're dead in the water and back to serving the alliance.

[DigitalMaster37]

Giogiogio4 wrote...

I say Tali. not because im a fan but for the facts

Without Talis info shepard wouldnt be a Specter and Saren wouldve won. Saren wouldve been able to do whatever whenever and shepard wouldnt even have left the citidel after how bad his mission was and lossing the prothen gadget.

Liara helped out with all the prothen findings and her insight was very helpful. But as i seen in ME2 she was a posser just trying to get away from her mommy. And a traitor. Tali helped Shepard thru the entire ME games. without her the ship wouldnt be at its top performance.

Liara came with shepard to fufill her little obbsesion with the protheans. She quickly got over shepard dieing and moved on.( shes young and thats what kids do). While tali was helping in ME2 Liara was sitting in a office fulfilling her own agenda when the the FATE of all was at stake.

In the end Tali has more pride in her work and duty and would follow shepard and die for him anyday even if the mission is called a suicide mission,

While Liara gave up on her passion about the prothens ,Infomation and tech she couldve used to pay off any debt if she followed shepard in ME2. She came in ME1,got what she needed. got rid of her mom and scored with shepard. He died she moved on rather fast and didnt even offer to help. Hell, even when you see her in ME2 she uses him to fufill her agenda.

Shepard honors his CREW. and from what i seen Liara isnt fit to be in it. She would be th elast char i would trust behind shepard.

For the record I am not gonna argue this point with everyone, but this one is another argument with very weak foundation. IT IS AN ASSUMPTION to say that Saren would have won, if we didn;t get that small piece of evidence from Tali. That evidence is a small part of the equation of saving the entire galaxy. You all are clearly fanboys and using that motivation to fuel your shallow arguments. You could try to say the same about me, but you would be wrong because I am using actuall game/comic book facts, you guys are throwing around ONE, notice ONE thing Tali did as game breaking, when I am throwing around at least three separate things Liara did. Do you get it yet? Even if we take the simple route and just put them up against each other:

Liara: Beacons, Ilos, Saving Shepherd from the SB
Tali: one....frikkin...piece...of evidence...........

who wins? Liara and if you Tali, you become a victim of one of three things:

Liara hate, Tali fanboyism, or so many things about Mass Effect went over your head that it's plain rediculous.

[Cutlass Jack]

Deltaboy37-1 wrote...

I won't even comment on this, because it is a repeat of your incorrect logic from a precious post and it's pointless for me to reiterate my logic that refutes yours. You're tying to much to him being a spectre. He sure COULD have rescued her, you don't need spectre status to land on a mining planet.

No you don't. But you do need command of a ship. And you'd also need to know you needed to find that remote planet to begin with.

[MisterShine]

I'd like to ask Deltaboy, are you at work or in class? I'm curious as to what has you so bored to make this thread, but not be able to play ME2?

Deltaboy37-1 wrote...

Even if what you say was true, then another asari might have been able to mind meld...NOT. Liara is a prothean expert, not many asari can say this. so that refutes your first claim.

Whenever I play ME , because I love Liara to bits and pieces, I always get her first and do the mind meld thing whenever she asks, but if you got her last, what role does she play? You get location of the Mu Relay from Benezia, you already have the prothean cypher, and you know that Saren is headed to the conduit. What good does her knowledge of the protheans do in a practical sense?

Secondly, lets just for the sake of example say you had a point. Then Liara is still valuable because she found and rescued Shepherds body... are you gonna say Tali "would have" done the same??? I think not as she DID NOT do the same. In fact she was too busy running her own new team and NOT thinking about Shepherd.

Liara's contribution is critical, I agree with you. However, since we don't know how the comic ends up, it may have been Cerberus would have gotten their hands on Shepard anyway. Though given how much it seemed she missed Shepard, I'm a little surprised Tali DIDN'T help Liara with getting Shep's body back. My point being, without either of them the Mass Effect story doesn't end happily.

Find a ship and plot the course.
Please try again.

Except the noveria guys were ready to shoot you on sight Both before you landed and after. And in fact many of them shot at you anyway, even though you were a spectre.

And as much as I love me some sarcasm, let's try and keep it friendly yeah? 

[DigitalMaster37]

Kyle Dei wrote...

Deltaboy, your opinion is noted but everybody has given enough proof that Tali is a crucial member above Liara. You are stating an opinon, not a fact. Give your own information and points of view as to why Liara is more important instead of trying to retcon the game's own storyline.

Without Tali, Matriarch Benezia's voiceprint would never have been played to the council, Saren would also have the resources and information of the Council to further the reapers end. The voiceprint also allowed Shep to become a Spectre. It also helped the Council in giving Shep the information needed in tracking down Saren. You could leave finding Liara till after Virmire, giving her a whole 1 planet of play time, not much seeing as Tali was with you from the Citadel.

Liara only managed to recover Shep's body because of the information trade going on in Mass Effect. TIM even mentions Liara working for the Shadow Broker, not against. This means at the time Liara was probably trading information and not directly looking for Shep.

Delta, your 'facts' are based upon assumption. The plot speaks for itself when Tali was the turning point in the first game. Without her you're dead in the water and back to serving the alliance.

wow, is all I can say to this. Tali fans are coming out of the woodwork to defend her (from what I don't know) but it's clear fanboyism has taken over many logically proven facts. Sorry guys but it's sad to see logic suffer like that to blind fanboyism. It's hilarious and I admire your efforts but it's quite clear who is more vital between the two.

For the record you guys are making yourselves look like idiots, cause everyone else on the outside of fanboyism realizes that Liara trumps Tali in this area. face it guys, just face it... lol. this is funny

Lastly, you clearly did NOT read the comic book or you skimmed through it, read it again and you will see Liara is solely responsible for securing Shepherds body? oH yeah where was Tali during this. Polishing her two toes???

Modifié par Deltaboy37-1, 09 février 2010 - 07:25 .

[Giogiogio4]

The comic books shouldnt even count as anything. Those were made for FANBOYS as yourself. As you can tell from the cover of issue 1. The cover has her in a tight suit...give me a break.



As i said SHepard commands his Crew. and without that little link they made up at the last momment for fan buys she still is a traitor in my book.

[DigitalMaster37]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

Deltaboy37-1 wrote...

I won't even comment on this, because it is a repeat of your incorrect logic from a precious post and it's pointless for me to reiterate my logic that refutes yours. You're tying to much to him being a spectre. He sure COULD have rescued her, you don't need spectre status to land on a mining planet.

No you don't. But you do need command of a ship. And you'd also need to know you needed to find that remote planet to begin with.

says who.The alliance could have done this. You might have forgotten that Anderson could have led an alliance search. You cling to much to one possibility since, now everyone wants to adopt the shoulda's and coulda's.

[jeseli]

So I thought there already was a ZOMG Liara is the most awesome character thread?

Okay I don't remember everything that happened in ME1 but I thought Tali's evidence that Matriarch Benezia was involved with Saren led you to Liara in the first place..? o.0 I'm not sure why this is a contest really. It's very silly. MY DAD COULD BEAT UP YOUR DAD.

Modifié par jeseli, 09 février 2010 - 07:31 .

[Justin2k]

Deltaboy, you are just a rabid fan who is a little over the top about a videogame character.



Liara is fairly minor in ME2, Tali is a main character. Shepard states clearly that Tali was instrumental in stopping Saren and taking down a reaper and was an ambassador for her entire race.



Liara is little mentioned beside the cameo she has and even then you get renegade points for helping her, so she is not a good person or fit for paragon Shepards.



Tali is far more instrumental in ME overall than Liara who was essentially a failed attempt of an Asari player character, which is why she was replaced in ME2. Support threads for Liara are far smaller than most of the other characters, even Alenko who was garbage. She just really isn't that popular.



Really, just give it a rest, you don't need to criticise everyone with a difference of opinion.