245 réponses à ce sujet

[BECC4]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

BECC4 wrote...
Lol but Kaidan and Ash are the same person just in alternate realities 

Oh and they co-exist sometimes too

Really one could argue that Shepard actually stole being the hero away from Ashidan when he pushed them out of the way. Bastage.

LOL!  I never thought of that.

[Cutlass Jack]

Sageless Ranger wrote...

I also think that Tali and Legion will play a major role in ME3, geth vs quarian war seems likely.

I think negotiating a peace between Geth and Quarians will be an important thing in ME3. Especially given a few bits of info they gave this time around. First, that the Quarian fleet (largest one in the galaxy) would be free to assist against the Reapers if they had a home to put their non-combat residents. And also Legion's reveal that the Geth are caretaking the Quarian homeworld but don't actually live on it. Seems a good setup for peace there.

But I think Tali's investigation into that star with the Dark Matter will also be a huge part of ME3. But I'm sure the Shadow Broker will be too.

[DigitalMaster37]

Mox Ruuga wrote...

Tali does need a lot of rescuing tho... I think the most of any squaddie in Mass Effect? Four times, at least.

Basically, every time Shepard meets her, she's in a jam she can't get out of on her own. Her personal quest too is basically Shepard playing the white knight again, protecting her and her family's honor.

Liara needs rescuing once, then she actually saves Shepard. Ash needs the save twice, Kaidan only once. Jack doesn't need no fv(king rescue!!11!, and Miranda is the one who brings Shepard back to life. Garrus is saved once, Thane and Jacob don't need rescuing, as far as I'm aware.

I think it's clear, who the damsel in distress is. Not that it makes me like the character more, or less. It just is.

Say this again! I love it because now that means she is more of a liability than an asset to the saving the galaxy. Not to mention her clinginess and low self esteem, somebody give her personality a red bull! stat!

there goes the Talimancers argument of her importance...

[KainrycKarr]

Or you could put it into context.

[DigitalMaster37]

This thread has become amazing and I will no longer take into account Talimancer arguments, because they are baseless. Anyone else have any input to this?



Oh yeah and you might want to hide your sig so I can take your argument seriously if your a Talimancer... I like to hear more takes on this.

[Cutlass Jack]

Mox Ruuga wrote...

Tali does need a lot of rescuing tho... I think the most of any squaddie in Mass Effect? Four times, at least.

Basically, every time Shepard meets her, she's in a jam she can't get out of on her own. Her personal quest too is basically Shepard playing the white knight again, protecting her and her family's honor.

Liara needs rescuing once, then she actually saves Shepard. Ash needs the save twice, Kaidan only once. Jack doesn't need no fv(king rescue!!11!, and Miranda is the one who brings Shepard back to life. Garrus is saved once, Thane and Jacob don't need rescuing, as far as I'm aware.

I think it's clear, who the damsel in distress is. Not that it makes me like the character more, or less. It just is.

Huh? Tali only had two rescues. When you first meet her in ME1 and  When you recruit her in ME2. She didn't need a rescue when you run into her on Freedom. Her unit were the idiots who ran forward, not her. And she fully participated in her 'rescues.' unlike Liara who captured herself. (a cute moment, I'll admit.)

How often Ash/Kai are saved varies if you count positive Virmire choice, its 3 Ash, 2 Kai.

And technically you do rescue Jack when you first meet her. Though it would severely ****** her off to admit it.

Liara did rescue me once, its true. But Tali also rescued me when she pulled me up onto the ship at the end. (your milage may vary)

[KainrycKarr]

Deltaboy37-1 wrote...

This thread has become amazing and I will no longer take into account Talimancer arguments, because they are baseless. Anyone else have any input to this?

Oh yeah and you might want to hide your sig so I can take your argument seriously if your a Talimancer... I like to hear more takes on this.

Could of sworn you liked Tali.

I admire your passion but you seem to flip flop a lot.

[Barquiel]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

 But Tali also rescued me when she pulled me up onto the ship at the end. (your milage may vary)

Miranda "saved" my Shepard at the end

Miranda:2
Shepard:0

...damn:P

[Mox Ruuga]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

Huh? Tali only had two rescues. When you first meet her in ME1 and  When you recruit her in ME2. She didn't need a rescue when you run into her on Freedom. Her unit were the idiots who ran forward, not her. And she fully participated in her 'rescues.' unlike Liara who captured herself. (a cute moment, I'll admit.)

How often Ash/Kai are saved varies if you count positive Virmire choice, its 3 Ash, 2 Kai.

And technically you do rescue Jack when you first meet her. Though it would severely ****** her off to admit it.

Liara did rescue me once, its true. But Tali also rescued me when she pulled me up onto the ship at the end. (your milage may vary)

She and her people were in trouble on Freedom's Progress. More so after the fool quarian charges in.

Both of her recruitments are her in need of rescue.

Her loyalty mission is again something she requires Shepard to save her from. And not only her, her family's name too. Not a threat to life and limb, but exile is the worst punishment a quarian can get from their own. The white knight defends the lady's honor, in between rescues from dragons.

I can give you, that the Freedom's Progress encounter is debatable. But the quarians would not have defeated the mechs themselves, and had Shepard not destroyed the YMIR, it would likely have wiped out every quarian in Tali's team. Including herself. She participates in fighting against the YMIR just as much as Liara participates in the Krogan Battlemaster fight, BTW.

Like I said, it just is. This is not me being "hateful" or other nonsense like that.

[DigitalMaster37]

KainrycKarr wrote...

Deltaboy37-1 wrote...

This thread has become amazing and I will no longer take into account Talimancer arguments, because they are baseless. Anyone else have any input to this?

Oh yeah and you might want to hide your sig so I can take your argument seriously if your a Talimancer... I like to hear more takes on this.

Could of sworn you liked Tali.

I admire your passion but you seem to flip flop a lot.

I never said anything against Tali herself .See I understand how this works. You don't hate a character because of his/her fans, you attack the fans for being "stupid" (you in particular (so far)) have not proven as air-headed as your compatriots and again I can respect that. Truth is I like Tali quite a bit, she has done nothing but good in my playthroughs. Yet, she has not proven to be more useful than Liara. The scary truth is that she is not even close and the Tali Cult I'll say (as I don't consider you to be of that order) keeps making up stories to try to shoehorn belief that she does and it makes no sense. If it makes sense to you, then you would begin to scare me. Yet my logic will stand on it's own and so will the truth and everyone with half a brain knows the truth and unfortunately the truth in this case does not favor the Talimancers, sorry.

Modifié par Deltaboy37-1, 09 février 2010 - 08:43 .

[Nastrod]

There is more then one really. Shep is the hero but he has needed the help from his friends to do it. I can not say one person.

[Sageless Ranger]

Deltaboy37-1 wrote...

KainrycKarr wrote...

Deltaboy37-1 wrote...

This thread has become amazing and I will no longer take into account Talimancer arguments, because they are baseless. Anyone else have any input to this?

Oh yeah and you might want to hide your sig so I can take your argument seriously if your a Talimancer... I like to hear more takes on this.

Could of sworn you liked Tali.

I admire your passion but you seem to flip flop a lot.

I never said anything against Tali herself .See I understand how this works. You don't hate a character because of his/her fans, you attack the fans for being "stupid" (you in particular (so far)) have not proven as air-headed as your compatriots and again I can respect that. Truth is I like Tali quite a bit, she has done nothing but good in my playthroughs. Yet, she has not proven to be more useful than Liara. The scary truth is that she is not even close and the Tali Cult I'll say (as I don't consider you to be of that order) keeps making up stories to try to shoehorn belief that she does and it makes no sense. If it makes sense to you, then you would begin to scare me. Yet my logic will stand on it's own and so will the truth and everyone with half a brain knows the truth and unfortunately the truth in this case does not favor the Talimancers, sorry.

I don't see why some of the Tali fans are arguing with you, loving Tali as a character is irrelevant when discussing which character has the most important role in terms of saving the galaxy. We try and keep the excitable Tali fans in line, but one can only do so much lol. 

[KainrycKarr]

Deltaboy37-1 wrote...

KainrycKarr wrote...

Deltaboy37-1 wrote...

This thread has become amazing and I will no longer take into account Talimancer arguments, because they are baseless. Anyone else have any input to this?

Oh yeah and you might want to hide your sig so I can take your argument seriously if your a Talimancer... I like to hear more takes on this.

Could of sworn you liked Tali.

I admire your passion but you seem to flip flop a lot.

I never said anything against Tali herself .See I understand how this works. You don't hate a character because of his/her fans, you attack the fans for being "stupid" (you in particular (so far)) have not proven as air-headed as your compatriots and again I can respect that. Truth is I like Tali quite a bit, she has done nothing but good in my playthroughs. Yet, she has not proven to be more useful than Liara. The scary truth is that she is not even close and the Tali Cult I'll say (as I don't consider you to be of that order) keeps making up stories to try to shoehorn belief that she does and it makes no sense. If it makes sense to you, then you would begin to scare me. Yet logic sill stand on it's own and so will the truth and everyone with half a brain knows the truth and unfortunately the truth in this case does not favor the Talimancers, sorry.

Hmm..I think they are both very important, when placed into perspective.

Liara, I feel, is the dominant in way of importance because...well. Read Redemption. without Liara's borderline obsession with Shepard, he ends up Collector fodder via the Shadow Broker.

As much as I love Tali's character, I simply don't see anything she has done as being more integral than that.

Yes, she got the evidence, and yes, that is very important, but is that more important than the physical existence of the savior of the galaxy?

In brutal honesty, yes. Liara played a more pivotal role.  But that does not mean Tali didn't play an important role.

And about the whole damsel in distress thing....

With due respect to the Liara fans...SHE GOT HERSELF STUCK IN A FREAKING BUBBLE. If not for Shepard's crew, she would have been dead, and not even had the CHANCE to fight back.

In both of Tali's cases, she was at least able to fight back, and in the Freedom's Progress instance...

She is an expert in tech and AI hacking; you really think she couldn't handle a mech? i mostly disregard that being a rescue because, well, you really don't know one way or the other.

Tl;DR

Liara is the more important character in the overal story and continuation. Period.

Tali is up there, but did not specifically do anything that 100% would guarantee anything bad would happen.

Bear in mind, I say this as a "freaky, rabid tali-fan".

[DigitalMaster37]

yet I knew when I made this thread that it might insight hate, but I also thought rational thinkers would join me. I was right about both at first then the Tali Cult came in and proved me wrong.



Overall I will make a list and this will sum it up.



Liara:



1) Decoded the beacons for Shepherd

2) discovered Ilos as important (no one else could have even come close because she visited there and was able to recognize it due to her scientific expeditions there)

3) She was the only team member who saved Shepherd body from the Collectors (comic book)



Tali



1) Uncovered Sarens' involvement with the Geth (if that counts for being the most vital, the world must be getting ready to end)



TIM



1) rebuilt Shepherd



Miranda



1) was instrumental in rebuilding Shepherd





Everyone else was instrumental, but not like these above.



Who can accurately argue against that??? no argument up until this point even makes sense against this.

[Cutlass Jack]

Mox Ruuga wrote...

She and her people were in trouble on Freedom's Progress. More so after the fool quarian charges in.

Both of her recruitments are her in need of rescue.

Her loyalty mission is again something she requires Shepard to save her from. And not only her, her family's name too. Not a threat to life and limb, but exile is the worst punishment a quarian can get from their own. The white knight defends the lady's honor, in between rescues from dragons.

I can give you, that the Freedom's Progress encounter is debatable. But the quarians would not have defeated the mechs themselves, and had Shepard not destroyed the YMIR, it would likely have wiped out every quarian in Tali's team. Including herself. She participates in fighting against the YMIR just as much as Liara participates in the Krogan Battlemaster fight, BTW.

Like I said, it just is. This is not me being "hateful" or other nonsense like that.

You simply cannot call her loyalty mission a rescue without calling most loyalty missions a rescue. She was a full participant at all times, and could have simply avoided coming to her own trial. You were attempting to rescue her father, which puts it on par with Jacob/Miranda/Thane's missions. Jack's you could argue was rescuing her from her inner demons, etc. Hell, even Liara's mission was a bit of a rescue by that yardstick.

Personally I find it a stretch. And Shepard plays the knight to nearly everyone. Her accomplishments speak for themselves at her trial.

But really this has nothing whatsoever to do with the actual topic of the thread.

[Pathogen7]

Everyone forgot about poor Jenkins. Cheers to the Fallen!



In seriousness, I think the orginal question is somewhat a misconception. I would rather think of which playable squadmates are required to complete the storyline in ME1 and ME2. As to which is a more important character is matter of personal prefence.



For ME1, Tali and Liara are required for their role in plot advancement. In minor role is Ashley/Kaiden, which set off the nuke or take down the AA guns allowing your escape on Virmire. Garrus and Wrex are there for support - high five!



Prelude to ME2 would be Liara for finding Shepards body and delivery it to cerberus.



For ME2, Miranda, Mordin for their roles of bring you back to life and saving you from the Collector Swarm. Please remember that you can not unlock the Horizon mission without obtaining Garrus, Grunt, and Jack (including Mordin) so they are somewhat of a necessity. It's not like they play a particular role in ME2, since they can be easily replaced by the remain squad memebers.

(Assuming you want all your members to survive the suicide mission, Tali or Legion are necessary.)

Samara/Morinth, Thane, Tali, and Legion are again for support - high five! Oh yeah, Zheed - what ever!



Just on a side note for playable squad mates in ME3. Please remember that if any characters has the slightest chance of taking one for the team in the final act, then I wouldn't expect them to play a major role in the final part of the trilogy. Wrex, Ashley, Alenko are examples of what happens to players that can die. It is possible to Liara to make a comeback, in the final part of the trilogy.

[DigitalMaster37]

Sageless Ranger wrote...

Deltaboy37-1 wrote...

KainrycKarr wrote...

Deltaboy37-1 wrote...

This thread has become amazing and I will no longer take into account Talimancer arguments, because they are baseless. Anyone else have any input to this?

Oh yeah and you might want to hide your sig so I can take your argument seriously if your a Talimancer... I like to hear more takes on this.

Could of sworn you liked Tali.

I admire your passion but you seem to flip flop a lot.

I never said anything against Tali herself .See I understand how this works. You don't hate a character because of his/her fans, you attack the fans for being "stupid" (you in particular (so far)) have not proven as air-headed as your compatriots and again I can respect that. Truth is I like Tali quite a bit, she has done nothing but good in my playthroughs. Yet, she has not proven to be more useful than Liara. The scary truth is that she is not even close and the Tali Cult I'll say (as I don't consider you to be of that order) keeps making up stories to try to shoehorn belief that she does and it makes no sense. If it makes sense to you, then you would begin to scare me. Yet my logic will stand on it's own and so will the truth and everyone with half a brain knows the truth and unfortunately the truth in this case does not favor the Talimancers, sorry.

I don't see why some of the Tali fans are arguing with you, loving Tali as a character is irrelevant when discussing which character has the most important role in terms of saving the galaxy. We try and keep the excitable Tali fans in line, but one can only do so much lol. 

 And because of people like you I will never become a Tali hater or have a problem with all of her fans. I think you are thinking logically because I meant no negativity towards anyones favorite character. It just amazes me how far some fanboys will go and for what?

Thank you for that, it is good to know the "real" Tali fans. Like I said with another, I can truly respect you for being an objective thinker.

[KainrycKarr]

Deltaboy37-1 wrote...

Sageless Ranger wrote...

Deltaboy37-1 wrote...

KainrycKarr wrote...

Deltaboy37-1 wrote...

This thread has become amazing and I will no longer take into account Talimancer arguments, because they are baseless. Anyone else have any input to this?

Oh yeah and you might want to hide your sig so I can take your argument seriously if your a Talimancer... I like to hear more takes on this.

Could of sworn you liked Tali.

I admire your passion but you seem to flip flop a lot.

I never said anything against Tali herself .See I understand how this works. You don't hate a character because of his/her fans, you attack the fans for being "stupid" (you in particular (so far)) have not proven as air-headed as your compatriots and again I can respect that. Truth is I like Tali quite a bit, she has done nothing but good in my playthroughs. Yet, she has not proven to be more useful than Liara. The scary truth is that she is not even close and the Tali Cult I'll say (as I don't consider you to be of that order) keeps making up stories to try to shoehorn belief that she does and it makes no sense. If it makes sense to you, then you would begin to scare me. Yet my logic will stand on it's own and so will the truth and everyone with half a brain knows the truth and unfortunately the truth in this case does not favor the Talimancers, sorry.

I don't see why some of the Tali fans are arguing with you, loving Tali as a character is irrelevant when discussing which character has the most important role in terms of saving the galaxy. We try and keep the excitable Tali fans in line, but one can only do so much lol. 

 And because of people like you I will never become a Tali hater or have a problem with all of her fans. I think you are thinking logically because I meant no negativity towards anyones favorite character. It just amazes me how far some fanboys will go and for what?

Thank you for that, it is good to know the "real" Tali fans. Like I said with another, I can truly respect you for being an objective thinker.

Ladies and gentlemen....fan unity. Such a thing truly does exist!

Liara and Tali for ME3.

[KainrycKarr]

It seems every post I've made today has been doubled or tripled...I hate these forums, and that submit button.

Modifié par KainrycKarr, 09 février 2010 - 08:54 .

[Sageless Ranger]

Deltaboy37-1 wrote...

yet I knew when I made this thread that it might insight hate, but I also thought rational thinkers would join me. I was right about both at first then the Tali Cult came in and proved me wrong.

Overall I will make a list and this will sum it up.

Liara:

1) Decoded the beacons for Shepherd
2) discovered Ilos as important (no one else could have even come close because she visited there and was able to recognize it due to her scientific expeditions there)
3) She was the only team member who saved Shepherd body from the Collectors (comic book)

Tali

1) Uncovered Sarens' involvement with the Geth (if that counts for being the most vital, the world must be getting ready to end)

TIM

1) rebuilt Shepherd

Miranda

1) was instrumental in rebuilding Shepherd


Everyone else was instrumental, but not like these above.

Who can accurately argue against that??? no argument up until this point even makes sense against this.

I agree with you!
but you forgot one crew member.....and thats Joker!! Without him you wouldn't be able to do anything =P Well you have EDI, but still >.> but he isn't a squadmate so this is irrelevant to you OP. 

[DigitalMaster37]

KainrycKarr wrote...

Deltaboy37-1 wrote...

KainrycKarr wrote...

Deltaboy37-1 wrote...

This thread has become amazing and I will no longer take into account Talimancer arguments, because they are baseless. Anyone else have any input to this?

Oh yeah and you might want to hide your sig so I can take your argument seriously if your a Talimancer... I like to hear more takes on this.

Could of sworn you liked Tali.

I admire your passion but you seem to flip flop a lot.

I never said anything against Tali herself .See I understand how this works. You don't hate a character because of his/her fans, you attack the fans for being "stupid" (you in particular (so far)) have not proven as air-headed as your compatriots and again I can respect that. Truth is I like Tali quite a bit, she has done nothing but good in my playthroughs. Yet, she has not proven to be more useful than Liara. The scary truth is that she is not even close and the Tali Cult I'll say (as I don't consider you to be of that order) keeps making up stories to try to shoehorn belief that she does and it makes no sense. If it makes sense to you, then you would begin to scare me. Yet logic sill stand on it's own and so will the truth and everyone with half a brain knows the truth and unfortunately the truth in this case does not favor the Talimancers, sorry.

Hmm..I think they are both very important, when placed into perspective.

Liara, I feel, is the dominant in way of importance because...well. Read Redemption. without Liara's borderline obsession with Shepard, he ends up Collector fodder via the Shadow Broker.

As much as I love Tali's character, I simply don't see anything she has done as being more integral than that.

Yes, she got the evidence, and yes, that is very important, but is that more important than the physical existence of the savior of the galaxy?

In brutal honesty, yes. Liara played a more pivotal role.  But that does not mean Tali didn't play an important role.

And about the whole damsel in distress thing....

With due respect to the Liara fans...SHE GOT HERSELF STUCK IN A FREAKING BUBBLE. If not for Shepard's crew, she would have been dead, and not even had the CHANCE to fight back.

In both of Tali's cases, she was at least able to fight back, and in the Freedom's Progress instance...

She is an expert in tech and AI hacking; you really think she couldn't handle a mech? i mostly disregard that being a rescue because, well, you really don't know one way or the other.

Tl;DR

Liara is the more important character in the overal story and continuation. Period.

Tali is up there, but did not specifically do anything that 100% would guarantee anything bad would happen.

Bear in mind, I say this as a "freaky, rabid tali-fan".

again you have my respect and it has nothing to do with your points on Liara, but honestly on your ability to have a discussion that is not tainted with fanboyism.

I try to do the same, I can go to my Liara threads and be fanboyish there, but in other discussion, just be real and honest and logical is all I was asking, but some people can't do that.

Thanks again for being rational.

Modifié par Deltaboy37-1, 09 février 2010 - 08:58 .

[Chaos-fusion]

Squad Member - Liara, Tali or Mordin.

Non - squad member - Powell. ... Who you ask? The guy on Eden Prime who tells you that Saren shot Nihlus. Without him, you'd have no idea what Saren did, so you wouldn't have hunted him down, or found evidence of the geth, or reapers existance, and Sovereign would've succeded in the attack on the Citadel because you'd have no reason to suspect something was coming, and humanity would no doubt send their best on some trivial task after s/he failed to be the model of what humanity could become.

While Tali, Liara and mordin are all important, they'd all be dead anyway if not for Powell. (And why so much Tali vs Liara? They're both sweet and adorable!)

Modifié par Chaos-fusion, 09 février 2010 - 08:58 .

[DigitalMaster37]

Sageless Ranger wrote...

Deltaboy37-1 wrote...

yet I knew when I made this thread that it might insight hate, but I also thought rational thinkers would join me. I was right about both at first then the Tali Cult came in and proved me wrong.

Overall I will make a list and this will sum it up.

Liara:

1) Decoded the beacons for Shepherd
2) discovered Ilos as important (no one else could have even come close because she visited there and was able to recognize it due to her scientific expeditions there)
3) She was the only team member who saved Shepherd body from the Collectors (comic book)

Tali

1) Uncovered Sarens' involvement with the Geth (if that counts for being the most vital, the world must be getting ready to end)

TIM

1) rebuilt Shepherd

Miranda

1) was instrumental in rebuilding Shepherd


Everyone else was instrumental, but not like these above.

Who can accurately argue against that??? no argument up until this point even makes sense against this.

I agree with you!
but you forgot one crew member.....and thats Joker!! Without him you wouldn't be able to do anything =P Well you have EDI, but still >.> but he isn't a squadmate so this is irrelevant to you OP. 

RIGHT! can't forget good ole Joker! That's one of my favorite characters or NPCs in the whole game.

[DigitalMaster37]

Chaos-fusion wrote...
 (And why so much Tali vs Liara? They're both sweet and adorable!)

I thought the same thing. Then I was attacked for Liking Liara. But I have two Tali fans who have warped my entire view on Tali fans for the better, although I will always be vigilant for the crazy ones, as with any character fan group.