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[Kolaris8472]

TL;DR Advisory: On your way to the reply box, please stop by the questions on the bottom of post 3(?) to know what to expect in response 

Break out your Can-o’-Worms macros and your popcorn .gifs, we’re going in. 

1) Why it isn’t out of character (Retconning == BAD)
That’s right; I’m not here to say that something about a character should be changed just because I don’t like it. I don’t care for Jack being bald, but it fits her character and thus it strengthens the cast as a whole. Rather, I’m here to explain why Tali was handled inconsistently and how having her as a female romance option solves a rather serious problem (and no, that problem is not that she’s “straight”, before anyone says it)
A) Why it adds up
As anyone who has argued that Tali being a romance option in the first place was a retcon has been told, there was a lot of chemistry between Shep and Tali in ME1. Shep rescued her from Fist’s setup in the knick of time. Shep stands up for her when her abilities are questioned in Udina’s office and makes her a part of the team, giving her an opportunity to work on the most advanced starship she’s ever seen. Shep shows her a respect she didn’t get anywhere else in the galaxy and Quarians are lucky to see at all (Ken on Omega, Quarian accused of pick-pocketing on the Citadel, Quarian slave on Ilium, Tali’s own stories about her Pilgrimage) . Shep shows her life outside the Flotilla is not wholly bigoted and intolerant. Shep shows an interest in her she did not even receive back home (Father issues, military upbringing, “I don’t usually talk about this…”). Shep helps her complete her Pilgrimage in a more significant manner than normal (“There’s more expected of me…”, “This data could be key to retaking our home-world from the Geth!”). In ME2, the relationship can continue in similar tones. Shep helps her complete her mission on Freedom’s Progress, even forcing Cerberus to back down so she could return Veetor to the Migrant Fleet. Shep again saves her life and helps her complete her mission on Haestrom (at this point Shep is on her mind considerably), even going the extra mile to make sure one friend under her command makes it out alive. Shep takes time off from the mission in order to escort her back to the Flotilla to stand trial, going so far as talking down the Admiralty Board for her (“No one’s ever spoken like that on my behalf…”). Shep shares the ordeal of her father’s death, even replacing and filling the emotional void that had always been in her life (“I got you”). Tali realizes she’s never been this close or felt this level of intimacy (even if not romantically) and trust with anyone before. 
Why it doesn’t make sense otherwise
“But wait a minute!” you say. “My Shep didn’t do any of those things! My Shep tried to force Saren’s Evidence off her, whined to Udina about having to bring her along, made every excuse to try to get aliens off the ship, tried to kick her out of the engine room, was the same intolerant ass she saw everywhere else, kept her stuffed on the Normandy the whole game, romanced Ashley, did not trust her with the Geth Data and would not help her on her Pilgrimage, expressed no personal interest in her, chose Cerberus over her, sacrificed her friend’s life to complete my mission, refused to console her over her father’s death, got her exiled, hit on Miranda most of the game, and she still jumped in my lap. What’s up?”
What’s up is that she is made into an inconsistent, shallow ditz. If the issue is ENTIRELY Shep's looks, she’s also a hypocrite. Here’s why. 
Whether you’re an ass or an angel to Tali, she falls for you because you can look behind her mask. You see her for her loveable, dutiful, loyal personality, incredible intelligence and resourcefulness, sassy wit and an at times bumbling tongue, not the helmet or the flashlight, not the Quarian stereo-types and not even that she’s a Quarian. When she looks at you, apparently only two things matter [CRASS WARNING]: if you have a penis, and if it’s acquainted with Miranda or Jack. This is a travesty of inconsistent behavior as far as I’m concerned, especially because Tali is my favorite cast member. She asks you to look behind her shell but will apparently not do the same for others. 

Modifié par Kolaris8472, 09 février 2010 - 03:54 .

[Ettecoud]

WALL OF TEXT



Could not get passed line five....try again.

[Kolaris8472]

2) Why it is a “lesser-evil”
I have to put it in quotes at this point because as I see it, if its retconning anything, its some very shallow character development. 
A) What happens if it isn’t an option
Less dialog, less continuation, less consistency, less closure for Femsheps. Conversations and scenes between Tali and interested Malesheps past-romance flag? 3. Between Tali and Femsheps? 0. The fact of the matter is that time and resources are tied up in the romance. You miss out on between 25-35% of the dialog aboard the Normandy. While personally I would be contented and thrilled with massively extended non-romantic dialog for all cast members, it’s not happening. Between the possibilities that Tali is dead, Tali is romanced, Tali is exiled, Tali isn’t loyal, Tali is spurned…a lot of her unique dialog and scenes will be tied up in the romance. It’s just being realistic. And if it makes sense that she’s interested in Femshep (or at least not NOT interested), isn’t it better to have more Tali to go around (please tell me that is not the issue here. Other people’s playthroughs do not affect yours)? Also keep in mind that without an obvious flag (like a romance) to carry through between ME2 and ME3, the game will end up forgetting a lot of what happened between Tali and Shephard, like it can between ME1 and ME2. 
What happens if it is an option
Everyone is either happier or not affected. This might end up short because I honestly can’t come up with reasons people would be upset. As it stands now the romance is initiated in layman’s form with easily recognizable dialog prompts. It’s much harder to stumble into it than it is for Femsheps and Jacob or Malesheps and Jack or Miranda. If you’re a Maleshep, do as you please. If you’re a Femshep, again, do as you please. If you’re only interested in the story and consistency, please see above and explain to me (I’m really interested) how it would be anything but improved. 
C) What precedent is there for an option
We’d have to ask whether it’s a further stretch in character than what we’ve seen happen before. There is no real measuring stick for this, so feel free to disagree. I feel Tali being interested in a female Shephard is less of a stretch than either Garrus becoming interested between ME1 and ME2 (note: not that it was out of character for him to become so), or Tali becoming willing to risk her health to shed her suit between ME1 and ME2 (note: ok…I do feel this part is a bit out of character and lore to begin with). Even the technological backpedaling to include Thermal Clips would be a larger stretch than this. The point is, stranger things have happened. 
D) Why it wouldn’t affect development of other things
Jennifer Hale reads a few more minutes of dialog. She had no issue reading lines for the Liara romance in ME1. That is preeeetty much it. No really, that would be it. The romance is already that gender-neutral. Hoping for more missions? You got ‘em. More weapons? Hopefully happening. More armor? Not affected. Improved story? Keep it coming. 

Here’s a poll, hopefully well disguised amongst the massive thread that will deter people from voting if they haven’t read up to this point: http://social.biowar...390/polls/1981/

Expected Responses:
“tl;dr BioWare doesn’t change things stfu”:BioWare is not compelled to change anything they don’t want to. BioWare does listen to and care what their fans think. The implementation of the Garrus/Tali romances in the first place, the combat overhauls, the planet exploration, the streamlined inventory, even the reload system – they were all implemented, regardless of how it turned out, to try to give fans what they wanted. 

“They’ve already said Shephard isn’t gay”:Well, unfortunately it certainly seems there won’t be any m/m romances in the near future. However, female Shephard has been in as many as three relationships/encounters that can be considered f/f from her point of view: the Consort, Liara, and Kelley. 

Modifié par Kolaris8472, 09 février 2010 - 03:58 .

[T1nk3rb311]

Wall o' text.



Put some breaks in that bad boy to make it easier on other's eyes.

[Willowhugger]

I think it's entirely understandable.



I'm not opposed to FemmTali so long as HetTali exists also.

[Kolaris8472]

 “It would unbalance the ratio of Male options to Female options”:Yes, well, personally I’m surprised that Thane wasn’t an option for Malesheps and I’d be open to a similar change there, but ultimately whether or not someone else has more options would only encourage BioWare to give you more in the future. 


“Tali isn’t bisexual”:I will try to ignore whether sexual preference is a choice as much as possible, as apparently the accepted position is that it is not, while things like a fetish (xenophilia) are. I view it as more of a scale than a switch, but that’s just me. I can’t give you a solid answer for why I feel she is (partly because I don’t think it matters), but I can point to the shared dialog between either Shep as reason it should not be ruled out. The same emotion and feeling goes into each line (especially: “…I wish Shephard were here”, “I got you”), and it’s a better alternative than Tali turning out to be a ditz. Please no one dare misread this as calling all “straight” people ditzes, but rather that the importance placed on sexual organs (incompatible ones at that) trivializes the relationship and the character. Tali can become intimate with a rude renegade who takes nearly every opportunity to ignore or berate her, but ignores a female who always looked out and cared for her, all the while looking up to Shephard for being able to look beyond her masked exterior. 


“There was more to it than that, Kelley tells us…”:Off-camera Kelley-mancing is irrelevant. She’s a plot device put in place to help people unfamiliar with the story and the characters experience a romance. Never mind how she is able to read Drell, Turians, and Quarians better than Shephard despite never working with them, knowing them for 1/20th the time and in 1/50th the capacity. We should discuss what we know of the characters, not what the game lazily tries to off-camera exposition in our direction. 


“Are you talking about DLC or ME3?”: I’m hoping for either. ME3 is much more likely. I would buy such a DLC however. 


“You don’t always get what you want. I want X but its not happening…”:Certainly, you won’t if you don’t do anything about it (not that this massive post counts for anything). I would not be suggesting this if I didn’t feel it would either improve the story/characters, or leave them intact while improving player choice. Also, please try to keep in mind that many of you replying will have little “I support X for ME3” in your sigs. 


“So you’re saying that all disabled people or those otherwise handicapped are bisexual?”:No I’m not. I’m saying that any relationship they develop will likely be based primarily on non-physical attraction, as you might have expected in an extra-species relationship or in Tali’s case specifically. But for Tali her attraction is apparently not on an emotional/psychological/any level other than physical because she wishes to get intimate with a Shephard whether he is, again, an ass or an angel. In that case she seems to “swing both ways”, which is inconsistent with how she wishes other people to treat her. 
“So why not add more flags to make Tali not as ‘easy’?”:Well…that is one way to resolve the inconsistency, I just don’t think it’s the best one. 


“You’re naïve. Women can be inconsistent/unfair/uncompromising in love. They can go for bad boys, they go for hunks. Jack’s a tough chick and she cries if you romance her; it isn’t inconsistent, its reality.”:If there was a similar Charm/Intimidate scene that lets you shape Tali’s personality like you can with Jack I wouldn’t see this as a problem. But she doesn’t even seem to recognize you past your gender, there was no different dialog for whether you’re a protective savior or incorrigible badass. So, yes, maybe that is realistic, but if realistic means shallow...I don't know. I guess I'd have to get over it. 

"Behind a mask =/= behind a gender":Certainly, but either way you get a feeling for the person based on their actions, their personality. I'm confused as to why that's apparently less important to Tali than gender is, but if you can explain it by all means. 


“Wtf is wrong with you to write so much about a video game?”:Believe me, I’ve written tons more than this in similar threads over the past week. In the end, they all went in circles. I’m hoping to spur some “new” discussion by getting all the circle-talk out of the way. 

[danteshepard]

This post is almost unreadable. also:

[Kolaris8472]

Yeah, MASSIVE format fail. Apologies.

[Ettecoud]

LOL SO WIN!

[ShadyKat]

danteshepard wrote...

This post is almost unreadable. also:

[Ekyri]

I don't see what Shepard does for her has to say, if she isn't attracted to females?

[Mikazukinoyaiba2]

You guys must have terrible scores in English, because I read it all and it hardly took 5 minutes.

Overall I have to agree with the OP in that Tali shouldn't fall in love with Shepard if he is a xenophobe and treated her badly in Mass Effect 1 or 2, that was a mistake on Bioware's part.

At the same time, I think they assumed that most people who are fans liked Tali, even if not as a romance option, and most likely did all of the sidequests in their canon playthrough which meant giving her the Geth technology.

Still would see making Tali bisexual as retconning, especially at this point and time.

Keep her and Garrus heterosexual, bring new characters to please the homosexual males.

Modifié par Mikazukinoyaiba2, 09 février 2010 - 04:04 .

[Dethateer]

Question. How does your first point lead to the conclusion that Tali would be attracted to women?

[Mikazukinoyaiba2]

I'm tired of the stupid spam pics as well, I'm reporting it and hopefully Bioware takes some serious action on that.

[Dethateer]

Err, dude, what spam pix? The guy posted it ONCE and was QUOTED. ONCE. Not quite spam.

[Kolaris8472]

Dethateer wrote...

Question. How does your first point lead to the conclusion that Tali would be attracted to women?

It doesn't necessarily. The most numerous stance we've had in similar threads is that it would be a form of retconning, and therefore should be discouraged. 

If anything, it would point to Tali being attracted to Shephard individually, like Garrus is only attracted to one human, i.e. Shephard. 

[Mikazukinoyaiba2]

Dethateer wrote...

Err, dude, what spam pix? The guy posted it ONCE and was QUOTED. ONCE. Not quite spam.

No

Even once it is spam and the other guy quoted it with a spam pic of their own, it is disruptive, not funny, and simply lazy.

[WilliamShatner]

No reason for her not to be.



Tali is the most beloved character in ME and female Shepard got the sore end of the stick.

[Mikazukinoyaiba2]

Kolaris8472 wrote...

Dethateer wrote...

Question. How does your first point lead to the conclusion that Tali would be attracted to women?

It doesn't necessarily. The most numerous stance we've had in similar threads is that it would be a form of retconning, and therefore should be discouraged. 

If anything, it would point to Tali being attracted to Shephard individually, like Garrus is only attracted to one human, i.e. Shephard. 

That attraction between FemShep and Tali could still just be platonic, I don't see an argument for how romance wouldn't be retconning.

[Ettecoud]

Hey Mikazukinoyaiba2.....get a new name....



And on that note.....

No one likes people like you

Take that as you will

[Dethateer]

Mikazukinoyaiba2 wrote...

Dethateer wrote...

Err,
dude, what spam pix? The guy posted it ONCE and was QUOTED. ONCE. Not
quite spam.

No

Even once it is spam and the other
guy quoted it with a spam pic of their own, it is disruptive, not funny,
and simply lazy.

...
What? that doesn't make any sense.
@Kolaris (I c wut u did with the rest of ur nick): Hm, that could work.
And you're quite the spammer yourself, you tripleposted in the time it took me to respond once.

Modifié par Dethateer, 09 février 2010 - 04:09 .

[KainrycKarr]

I'm fine with it. Homosexual(gay and lesbian) options should be allowed, in addition to, but not in place of, heterosexual romances.

[Collider]

No. Bioware decides who is and isn't bisexual. If Tali isn't bisexual, get over it. There are no arguments for Tali being bisexual besides stereotyping sexuality.

[Ettecoud]

You know what....**** it, make everyone bio....that shall please the masses

[Kolaris8472]

Collider wrote...

No. Bioware decides who is and isn't bisexual. If Tali isn't bisexual, get over it. There are no arguments for Tali being bisexual besides stereotyping sexuality.

This just means the only alternative is Tali being shallow and/or inconsistent. She wants Shephard to look behind her mask, won't do the same for him/her, ignores that he's an ass xenophobe while only looking at gender, etc...