617 réponses à ce sujet

[mundus66]

I can't even bother to reading that **** but so far Mass Effect hasn't had any real "gay" romance. Since Asari aren't technically female, since they only got one sex. There is even a term for that but i cant remember it.

There will be no Male on Male sex and females will only get to bed Asaris and males, heck in this game you could only bed males.

Modifié par mundus66, 09 février 2010 - 06:29 .

[Naltair]

WilliamShatner wrote...

Naltair wrote...

WilliamShatner wrote...
So the Muzyka's argument holds little water.

Being the Manager, it makes his argument hold the most water  even if it does not exactly make sense.  He is the boss or one of them.

As far as I'm aware Muzyka is only a figure head at BioWare nowadays.

Casey Hudson is the project director.  It would be like a CEO of Fox telling James Cameron that he knows more about the Avatar universe than Cameron.

But then again Hudson hasn't exactly been accurate when talking about Mass Effect either.

Hudson answers to Ray, their relationship is not like Cameron and Fox; it's much more direct.  I am pretty sure if Ray told Hudson I don't want blank, then blank would not go into the game.

Not saying he did but the relationships are totally different.

[Guaritor]

TheShady wrote...

Guaritor wrote...

Abirn wrote...

Guaritor wrote...

So wait... why can tali not be gay again? Not liking females isn't shallow, if shes just not attracted to girls then why force it? Ive been through alot with a friend of mine, and would probably take a bullet for him... doesn't mean im shallow for not wanting to jump him.

The conversation is recorded and exists, Fox news made them take it out.......

But fox let them keep the DA:O orgy.... right i believe that...

Because DA:O was not nearly that big of a deal as Mass Effect was. If I recall correctly, the New York Times called Mass Effect something like "the best role-playing game ever". Mass Effect caters to a much wider audience, was an XBox exclusive at first and got a lot more media attention.

Right, they also left kelly in and morinth, but absolutely had to take tali out...

[tr00per117]

Look all I know is there is one lesbian sex option and that is an asri alien. But now this is just getting ridiculous. I wanna see a gay krogan-Human sex scene But I very much doubt that from happening. But so many people are complaing about that ****ing tali! SHUT UP TALI FANS!

[Benethyarr]

I agree with the OP.

And personally I'd have thought that liking someone enough to sleep with them despite not even being the same race as you was a much bigger deal than someone of the same sex turning your head. Or to put that another way - if you're sleeping with someone who is a completely different species, whether they are male or female is really a fairly minor detail - for starters it's extraordinarily unlikely that you'll be physically capable of actually having sex, so which exact set of alien sexual organs they have is surely not all that big a deal.

So quite possibly Tali is straight. She's also probably not a xenophile. And that's likely true of Garrus and Thane as well. If they can overcome their instincts to the extent of sleeping with a human because of that human's personality, then I don't really see what difference it makes what sex the human is...

[Naltair]

Kolaris8472 wrote...

Guaritor wrote...

So wait... why can tali not be gay again? Not liking females isn't shallow, if shes just not attracted to girls then why force it? Ive been through alot with a friend of mine, and would probably take a bullet for him... doesn't mean im shallow for not wanting to jump him.

Sorry if I didn't convey that properly, no, not liking females is not shallow. What is shallow is that Tali will pursue a relationship with a "Renegade" Male Shephard, apparently strictly for his good looks or...something. 

What gets me from point A to point B is that Tali desires people look behind her mask, to see her for her personality and actions. Again, not necessarily meaning she's bisexual. But strictly ignoring a "Renegade" Male Shephard's actions so she can jump him for his looks while not entertaining the possibility of a more intimate relationship with a caring Female Shephard does strike me as inconsistent. 

You can then go and argue that there is some sort of divide between sexual compulsiveness and personal values that justifies being inconsistent in this regard like Naltair did, but I don't buy it, especially with Tali. 

It's not inconsistent if she isn't into women to begin with.  No more inconsistent than any other hetero person not considering a sweet and caring same sex partner solely on gender.  You don't have to buy it but seems to make the most amount of sex at least in this case.

It seem you think that sexuality is highly mutable it can be for "some" people but for most it isn't.

[Astranagant]

Here's my justification: It would be hot.

[TheShady]

Guaritor wrote...

Right, they also left kelly in and morinth, but absolutely had to take tali out...

Don't get me wrong, I think the Fox argument is lacking, but it still has some value. Media has influence. Any media.

I think Fox's trouble was with the graphical and the alien-thing. Not with the actual romance as we would interpret it.


Fact is, we just don't know why Tali has been cut out like that. Could be any number of reasons, really.

[Guaritor]

Kolaris8472 wrote...

Guaritor wrote...

So wait... why can tali not be gay again? Not liking females isn't shallow, if shes just not attracted to girls then why force it? Ive been through alot with a friend of mine, and would probably take a bullet for him... doesn't mean im shallow for not wanting to jump him.

Sorry if I didn't convey that properly, no, not liking females is not shallow. What is shallow is that Tali will pursue a relationship with a "Renegade" Male Shephard, apparently strictly for his good looks or...something. 

What gets me from point A to point B is that Tali desires people look behind her mask, to see her for her personality and actions. Again, not necessarily meaning she's bisexual. But strictly ignoring a "Renegade" Male Shephard's actions so she can jump him for his looks while not entertaining the possibility of a more intimate relationship with a caring Female Shephard does strike me as inconsistent. 

You can then go and argue that there is some sort of divide between sexual compulsiveness and personal values that justifies being inconsistent in this regard like Naltair did, but I don't buy it, especially with Tali. 

Well again... i'd sooner jump a chick whos been an ass to me, then a male friend of mine...

Having sex doesn't have to be the culmination of every relationship, and indeed i feel it can be just as fulfilling being great friends as being lovers.  Especially in the instance of renegade male shep vs paragon female shep.

[Naltair]

Benethyarr wrote...

I agree with the OP.

And personally I'd have thought that liking someone enough to sleep with them despite not even being the same race as you was a much bigger deal than someone of the same sex turning your head. Or to put that another way - if you're sleeping with someone who is a completely different species, whether they are male or female is really a fairly minor detail - for starters it's extraordinarily unlikely that you'll be physically capable of actually having sex, so which exact set of alien sexual organs they have is surely not all that big a deal.

So quite possibly Tali is straight. She's also probably not a xenophile. And that's likely true of Garrus and Thane as well. If they can overcome their instincts to the extent of sleeping with a human because of that human's personality, then I don't really see what difference it makes what sex the human is...

I can agree academically, but I also think that gender seems to play a large role as well.  Quarians and humans have similar body shapes besides the knees and fingers and seem physically similar that even if they are another species I find it hard to see a hetero male overlooking the similarity to just jump full steam ahead into a cross species same sex relationship.

Now the hanar I could see because they are just very alien looking.

The same goes for female quarians they have mammary glands or things that look like mammary glands and have female hips which seems to imply a similar structure to human women.  There shape is similar enough to humans that I could see a human male falling for a quarian and still wanting to maintain the fact they are attracted to women.

So yes I could see what you are saying but the similarities seem to imply that it could happen without having to jump gender and species.

[Kolaris8472]

Naltair wrote...

Kolaris8472 wrote...

Guaritor wrote...

So wait... why can tali not be gay again? Not liking females isn't shallow, if shes just not attracted to girls then why force it? Ive been through alot with a friend of mine, and would probably take a bullet for him... doesn't mean im shallow for not wanting to jump him.

Sorry if I didn't convey that properly, no, not liking females is not shallow. What is shallow is that Tali will pursue a relationship with a "Renegade" Male Shephard, apparently strictly for his good looks or...something. 

What gets me from point A to point B is that Tali desires people look behind her mask, to see her for her personality and actions. Again, not necessarily meaning she's bisexual. But strictly ignoring a "Renegade" Male Shephard's actions so she can jump him for his looks while not entertaining the possibility of a more intimate relationship with a caring Female Shephard does strike me as inconsistent. 

You can then go and argue that there is some sort of divide between sexual compulsiveness and personal values that justifies being inconsistent in this regard like Naltair did, but I don't buy it, especially with Tali. 

It's not inconsistent if she isn't into women to begin with.  No more inconsistent than any other hetero person not considering a sweet and caring same sex partner solely on gender.  You don't have to buy it but seems to make the most amount of sex at least in this case.

It seem you think that sexuality is highly mutable it can be for "some" people but for most it isn't.

Even if she's straight she wouldn't risk her life for a "Renegade" Shephard. This is the shallow part at least, and I asked people if they would rather resolve this by adding flags to get rid of that romance or by letting her relationship with a Female Shephard pan out. I've had one person explicitly said they'd want the former, that's great. I'm guessing you're in the same boat as well. 

But for me? I'd rather have more of an awesome character to go around. Then I brought in why it isn't as much of a stretch, given what we know of the Tali/Femshep relationship, that they become intimate compared to the stretch for Garrus/Femshep or Tali/Romance period, or even Thermal Clips. Precedent is there, the door is open, why not just try to please more fans? 

[Naltair]

TheShady wrote...

Fact is, we just don't know why Tali has been cut out like that. Could be any number of reasons, really.

The same reason there isn't a Garrus option, the dev team made it so.

[The Governator]

Kolaris8472 wrote...

2) Why it is a “lesser-evil”
I have to put it in quotes at this point because as I see it, if its retconning anything, its some very shallow character development. 
A) What happens if it isn’t an option
Less dialog, less continuation, less consistency, less closure for Femsheps. Conversations and scenes between Tali and interested Malesheps past-romance flag? 3. Between Tali and Femsheps? 0. The fact of the matter is that time and resources are tied up in the romance. You miss out on between 25-35% of the dialog aboard the Normandy. While personally I would be contented and thrilled with massively extended non-romantic dialog for all cast members, it’s not happening. Between the possibilities that Tali is dead, Tali is romanced, Tali is exiled, Tali isn’t loyal, Tali is spurned…a lot of her unique dialog and scenes will be tied up in the romance. It’s just being realistic. And if it makes sense that she’s interested in Femshep (or at least not NOT interested), isn’t it better to have more Tali to go around (please tell me that is not the issue here. Other people’s playthroughs do not affect yours)? Also keep in mind that without an obvious flag (like a romance) to carry through between ME2 and ME3, the game will end up forgetting a lot of what happened between Tali and Shephard, like it can between ME1 and ME2. 
What happens if it is an option
Everyone is either happier or not affected. This might end up short because I honestly can’t come up with reasons people would be upset. As it stands now the romance is initiated in layman’s form with easily recognizable dialog prompts. It’s much harder to stumble into it than it is for Femsheps and Jacob or Malesheps and Jack or Miranda. If you’re a Maleshep, do as you please. If you’re a Femshep, again, do as you please. If you’re only interested in the story and consistency, please see above and explain to me (I’m really interested) how it would be anything but improved. 
C) What precedent is there for an option
We’d have to ask whether it’s a further stretch in character than what we’ve seen happen before. There is no real measuring stick for this, so feel free to disagree. I feel Tali being interested in a female Shephard is less of a stretch than either Garrus becoming interested between ME1 and ME2 (note: not that it was out of character for him to become so), or Tali becoming willing to risk her health to shed her suit between ME1 and ME2 (note: ok…I do feel this part is a bit out of character and lore to begin with). Even the technological backpedaling to include Thermal Clips would be a larger stretch than this. The point is, stranger things have happened. 
D) Why it wouldn’t affect development of other things
Jennifer Hale reads a few more minutes of dialog. She had no issue reading lines for the Liara romance in ME1. That is preeeetty much it. No really, that would be it. The romance is already that gender-neutral. Hoping for more missions? You got ‘em. More weapons? Hopefully happening. More armor? Not affected. Improved story? Keep it coming. 

Here’s a poll, hopefully well disguised amongst the massive thread that will deter people from voting if they haven’t read up to this point: http://social.biowar...390/polls/1981/

Expected Responses:
“tl;dr BioWare doesn’t change things stfu”:BioWare is not compelled to change anything they don’t want to. BioWare does listen to and care what their fans think. The implementation of the Garrus/Tali romances in the first place, the combat overhauls, the planet exploration, the streamlined inventory, even the reload system – they were all implemented, regardless of how it turned out, to try to give fans what they wanted. 

“They’ve already said Shephard isn’t gay”:Well, unfortunately it certainly seems there won’t be any m/m romances in the near future. However, female Shephard has been in as many as three relationships/encounters that can be considered f/f from her point of view: the Consort, Liara, and Kelley. 

I agree, Kolaris.  Tali should be a female Shepard romance option.  I am not adamant about it, but I would very much like to see it.

[Kolaris8472]

Guaritor wrote...
Having sex doesn't have to be the culmination of every relationship, and indeed i feel it can be just as fulfilling being great friends as being lovers.  

Agree completely, but unfortunately there will be no fulfilled relationship without a romance. Look at Jack, or Garrus. They just mope around or calibrate the weapons all day, even if you want to be the best of friends, because they aren't a romance option. 

[TheShady]

Naltair wrote...

TheShady wrote...

Fact is, we just don't know why Tali has been cut out like that. Could be any number of reasons, really.

The same reason there isn't a Garrus option, the dev team made it so.

Yer... of course, who else? And why did they make it so? That's the question...

[Naltair]

Kolaris8472 wrote...
But for me? I'd rather have more of an awesome character to go around. Then I brought in why it isn't as much of a stretch, given what we know of the Tali/Femshep relationship, that they become intimate compared to the stretch for Garrus/Femshep or Tali/Romance period, or even Thermal Clips. Precedent is there, the door is open, why not just try to please more fans? 

Because if they really want to please some fans then offer a male/male romance.

The door is open, and there is no real harm, but I just can't support it without some equality, I feel it becomes pandering, and they really need to make a stance on this.

My gut says there will be no overt same sex relationships and asari will be the only option.  I don't think I will be wrong, BioWare will never please everyone and they don't gain anything by doing this.  In fact in the long run they gain less as they make the stance that women are inherently or more prone to bisexuality and homosexuality and men are not.

Which is total bull.

Modifié par Naltair, 09 février 2010 - 06:43 .

[Naltair]

Kolaris8472 wrote...

Guaritor wrote...
Having sex doesn't have to be the culmination of every relationship, and indeed i feel it can be just as fulfilling being great friends as being lovers.  

Agree completely, but unfortunately there will be no fulfilled relationship without a romance. Look at Jack, or Garrus. They just mope around or calibrate the weapons all day, even if you want to be the best of friends, because they aren't a romance option. 

Then ask to improve the conversation system as a whole, like I try to do.

[Naltair]

TheShady wrote...

Naltair wrote...

TheShady wrote...

Fact is, we just don't know why Tali has been cut out like that. Could be any number of reasons, really.

The same reason there isn't a Garrus option, the dev team made it so.

Yer... of course, who else? And why did they make it so? That's the question...

It might just be that simple.

Modifié par Naltair, 09 février 2010 - 06:42 .

[Guaritor]

Kolaris8472 wrote...

Guaritor wrote...
Having sex doesn't have to be the culmination of every relationship, and indeed i feel it can be just as fulfilling being great friends as being lovers.  

Agree completely, but unfortunately there will be no fulfilled relationship without a romance. Look at Jack, or Garrus. They just mope around or calibrate the weapons all day, even if you want to be the best of friends, because they aren't a romance option. 

So then why don't we fix that instead of changing whats already set in game, and what the devs apparently decided for tali.  I would DEFINATLEY support more options to build friendship, in fact i thought that just doing the loyalty mission wouldn't cut it, and that there'd be different levels of loyalty on my first playthrough.  More dialogue options, more missions, more of me and my two best friends in the universe (garrus and wrex), going to bars, being each other wingman, going to amusement parks, playing space pool!

[TheShady]

Naltair wrote...

TheShady wrote...

Naltair wrote...

TheShady wrote...

Fact is, we just don't know why Tali has been cut out like that. Could be any number of reasons, really.

The same reason there isn't a Garrus option, the dev team made it so.

Yer... of course, who else? And why did they make it so? That's the question...

It might just be that simple.

Maybe... Could also have cost someone a job. We don't know. 

[Kolaris8472]

Naltair wrote...

Kolaris8472 wrote...
But for me? I'd rather have more of an awesome character to go around. Then I brought in why it isn't as much of a stretch, given what we know of the Tali/Femshep relationship, that they become intimate compared to the stretch for Garrus/Femshep or Tali/Romance period, or even Thermal Clips. Precedent is there, the door is open, why not just try to please more fans? 

Because if they really want to please some fans then offer a male/male romance.

The door is open, and there is no real harm, but I just can't support it without some equality, I feel it becomes pandering, and they really need to make a stance on this.

My gut says there will be no overt same sex relationships and asari will be the only option.  I don;t think I will be wrong, BioWare will never please anyone and they don't gain anything by doing this.  In fact in the long run they gain less as they make the stance that women are inherently or more prone to bisexuality and homosexuality and men are not.

Which is total bull.

Yeah, well I said that even if they "unbalance" the ratio of relationships it will only encourage BioWare to even it out down the road. I'm still surprised that Thane wasn't a m/m option. 

Though, if at the end of the day they are strictly against m/m option, I still wouldn't fail to add this just for the reason of having an arbitrary same number of romances. Its already at 0/3 if you ask me. 

[WilliamShatner]

Naltair wrote...

Kolaris8472 wrote...
But for me? I'd rather have more of an awesome character to go around. Then I brought in why it isn't as much of a stretch, given what we know of the Tali/Femshep relationship, that they become intimate compared to the stretch for Garrus/Femshep or Tali/Romance period, or even Thermal Clips. Precedent is there, the door is open, why not just try to please more fans? 

Because if they really want to please some fans then offer a male/male romance.

The door is open, and there is no real harm, but I just can't support it without some equality, I feel it becomes pandering, and they really need to make a stance on this.

My gut says there will be no overt same sex relationships and asari will be the only option.  I don't think I will be wrong, BioWare will never please everyone and they don't gain anything by doing this.  In fact in the long run they gain less as they make the stance that women are inherently or more prone to bisexuality and homosexuality and men are not.

Which is total bull.

Hey if people want M/M romance with Jacob (who definitely seems tp be up for it) to be fair on a F/F romance with Tali I have no objections.

[Naltair]

TheShady wrote...
Maybe... Could also have cost someone a job. We don't know. 

True but I just think they made the decision, just like they did with Ashley and Kaidan in part 1, the option was there but they decided against it.

[Naltair]

Kolaris8472 wrote...
Though, if at the end of the day they are strictly against m/m option, I still wouldn't fail to add this just for the reason of having an arbitrary same number of romances. Its already at 0/3 if you ask me. 

Explain your reasoning.

[WilliamShatner]

Kolaris8472 wrote...

Naltair wrote...

Kolaris8472 wrote...
But for me? I'd rather have more of an awesome character to go around. Then I brought in why it isn't as much of a stretch, given what we know of the Tali/Femshep relationship, that they become intimate compared to the stretch for Garrus/Femshep or Tali/Romance period, or even Thermal Clips. Precedent is there, the door is open, why not just try to please more fans? 

Because if they really want to please some fans then offer a male/male romance.

The door is open, and there is no real harm, but I just can't support it without some equality, I feel it becomes pandering, and they really need to make a stance on this.

My gut says there will be no overt same sex relationships and asari will be the only option.  I don;t think I will be wrong, BioWare will never please anyone and they don't gain anything by doing this.  In fact in the long run they gain less as they make the stance that women are inherently or more prone to bisexuality and homosexuality and men are not.

Which is total bull.

Yeah, well I said that even if they "unbalance" the ratio of relationships it will only encourage BioWare to even it out down the road. I'm still surprised that Thane wasn't a m/m option. 

Though, if at the end of the day they are strictly against m/m option, I still wouldn't fail to add this just for the reason of having an arbitrary same number of romances. Its already at 0/3 if you ask me. 

Thane was married, so that's one character I think it's safe to assume is straight no matter how you role play it.