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[Kolaris8472]

Guaritor wrote...

Kolaris8472 wrote...

Guaritor wrote...
Having sex doesn't have to be the culmination of every relationship, and indeed i feel it can be just as fulfilling being great friends as being lovers.  

Agree completely, but unfortunately there will be no fulfilled relationship without a romance. Look at Jack, or Garrus. They just mope around or calibrate the weapons all day, even if you want to be the best of friends, because they aren't a romance option. 

So then why don't we fix that instead of changing whats already set in game, and what the devs apparently decided for tali.  I would DEFINATLEY support more options to build friendship, in fact i thought that just doing the loyalty mission wouldn't cut it, and that there'd be different levels of loyalty on my first playthrough.  More dialogue options, more missions, more of me and my two best friends in the universe (garrus and wrex), going to bars, being each other wingman, going to amusement parks, playing space pool!

This would be my number one solution, but strangely enough, I looked at what I felt BioWare would change between games and felt that this option (even with the colossal thread) was more likely. They just haven't set a precedent for making decent non-romantic dialog for romance interests. They treat the romance as all the unique dialog they need for a character, and while I wish they'd change it I'm not optimistic. 

[Naltair]

WilliamShatner wrote...
Hey if people want M/M romance with Jacob (who definitely seems tp be up for it) to be fair on a F/F romance with Tali I have no objections.

If they did that to begin with it would have been great, they won't do it, and they won't waste time retconning a minor part of the game.  It may happen in ME3 but given the precedent in ME1 and ME2 I highly doubt it.

Asari will be the only choice for both sexes.

[Kolaris8472]

Naltair wrote...

Kolaris8472 wrote...
Though, if at the end of the day they are strictly against m/m option, I still wouldn't fail to add this just for the reason of having an arbitrary same number of romances. Its already at 0/3 if you ask me. 

Explain your reasoning.

Same number of same-sex romances, sorry, which I feel is currently tallied at 0/3. 

[Guaritor]

Kolaris8472 wrote...

Guaritor wrote...

Kolaris8472 wrote...

Guaritor wrote...
Having sex doesn't have to be the culmination of every relationship, and indeed i feel it can be just as fulfilling being great friends as being lovers.  

Agree completely, but unfortunately there will be no fulfilled relationship without a romance. Look at Jack, or Garrus. They just mope around or calibrate the weapons all day, even if you want to be the best of friends, because they aren't a romance option. 

So then why don't we fix that instead of changing whats already set in game, and what the devs apparently decided for tali.  I would DEFINATLEY support more options to build friendship, in fact i thought that just doing the loyalty mission wouldn't cut it, and that there'd be different levels of loyalty on my first playthrough.  More dialogue options, more missions, more of me and my two best friends in the universe (garrus and wrex), going to bars, being each other wingman, going to amusement parks, playing space pool!

This would be my number one solution, but strangely enough, I looked at what I felt BioWare would change between games and felt that this option (even with the colossal thread) was more likely. They just haven't set a precedent for making decent non-romantic dialog for romance interests. They treat the romance as all the unique dialog they need for a character, and while I wish they'd change it I'm not optimistic. 

To expand on my post... they definitely need to add unique conversation options for being BFFs.  Once you turn down a romance option, open up some new 'friend' dialogue, make it so that romancing isnt the default best way to take a relationship.

Your right though, they do profoundly lack unique dialogue for friends, and currently the 'best' way to take a relationship is always into a romance... sadly.

Modifié par Guaritor, 09 février 2010 - 06:52 .

[WilliamShatner]

Naltair wrote...

TheShady wrote...
Maybe... Could also have cost someone a job. We don't know. 

True but I just think they made the decision, just like they did with Ashley and Kaidan in part 1, the option was there but they decided against it.

Didn't a developer say they were cut for time reasons?  

The great thing now is that with how ME2 is set up to include DLC much easier than ME1 that the items that were cut for time issues can be fully realised using DLC, something that wasn't really possibly with ME1.

[Naltair]

WilliamShatner wrote...
Thane was married, so that's one character I think it's safe to assume is straight no matter how you role play it.

I am surprised, many people would say that because he is married does not mean he was straight, he could be still secretly bi you never know blah blah blah....

I commend your insight.  This is a serious post.

[HAGA NAGA]

I support it.

I found it quite surprising that Bioware made Tali romanceable and neglected to include Femshep (if in fact it was a case of them yielding to the fans in the first place).

There are certain people on the forums who will never change their mind on this and it could be for any number of reasons. Maybe Lesbians are repulsive to them, maybe they HATE Tali and see this as a chance to derail at least part of the Tali crowd, or maybe (to be fair to them) they really do think it would ruin the story/character.

The thing i don't understand is why "going for it" with Maleshep proves that Tali is 100% straight anyway. Maybe she is more apprehensive or shy about approaching Femshep in that manner for fear of outright repulsion or rejection on Femshep's part? it would certainly be in line with Tali's demeanor around Shepard.  And there are lots of "Real People" that are that way about their sexuality. Is that really so far fetched?

[Naltair]

Kolaris8472 wrote...

Naltair wrote...

Kolaris8472 wrote...
Though, if at the end of the day they are strictly against m/m option, I still wouldn't fail to add this just for the reason of having an arbitrary same number of romances. Its already at 0/3 if you ask me. 

Explain your reasoning.

Same number of same-sex romances, sorry, which I feel is currently tallied at 0/3. 

Understood.

One male + male romance would be all that is needed.  It could even be a male looking alien race available for both genders.  It's not even but it gives some kind of parity.  They can even use the species as a sex dodge and be in the clear.

[TheShady]

Naltair wrote...

True but I just think they made the decision, just like they did with Ashley and Kaidan in part 1, the option was there but they decided against it.

And I'm fine with that, really.

The thing about ME2 just is... DA:O was such an excellent example, imo. There was a homosexual option for both genders available. With all characters, whether you could romance them or not, there was a very emotional and satisfying conclusion (friendship) + a "loyalty quest" and at least  one "loyalty item".

I just think, even if it seems unrealistic, even if the odds speak against it, even if it defies all logic, adding a male homosexual and a female homosexual (or at least bisexual in both cases) is simply a good idea.

What just surprised me negatively was that, in DA:O you had 4 romancable characters, in ME2 you had 6 (or 8, depends on how you count) + the option to uphold a former relationship. None of those 6 were same-sex. It just felt silly.

[Kolaris8472]

WilliamShatner wrote...
Thane was married, so that's one character I think it's safe to assume is straight no matter how you role play it.

And thus I do not make colossal rantings about Thane. But if you're looking for an option, it beats Jacob out in my view of things. Like I said though equality in arbitrary numbers shouldn't be an excuse. 

[Schurge]

I disagree completely... unless the writer had intended her to be bi-sexual.

What they really need to do is expand on the no romance options for all partners. I can't talk to Jack without it leading to something I am not interested in. Miranda, you can talk to her with the intent of no romance without it coming up (unlike Jack) but you reach a wall where you just can't talk to her anymore... Garrus? For male Sheperd's you can barely get to know him at all. Tali? She is one of my most favorite characters and sadly I can't get to know her better without romance, and Sheperd is a complete **** about saying he isn't interested ("Aww thats real sweet Tali," talking to her like she is 7 years old who has a crush on her third grade teacher, ie Sheperd)... so post Loyalty Quest can't really talk to her, more than Garrus though for males. Jacob? He actually has some closure for males, you end up friends which is good, and he doesnt ignore you he just says the same things over and over, same with Grunt; and Mordin... is just well Mordin (gotta love it when he tells you to 'stop hitting on him').

Bioware, we don't just talk to partners because we want to see some psuedo soft core scene... ignoring non-romantic relationships hinders the game.

Making Tali bisexual however, just because it gives her more dialogue and importance in the female Sheperd story is just pandering. The real problem is Bioware thinks we only want to talk to partners so we can pretend we've actually had sex.

EDIT: And yes I see the irony of my signature...

Modifié par Schurge, 09 février 2010 - 06:56 .

[this isnt my name]

No not every man/woman likes men/women, not every man likes men/womrn. Fact, face it you may like someone but they may never see you that way. A better way is have ME3 characters bi if youwant not change existing ones for a few people.

[Giogiogio4]

Ok guys it should be like this. Each woman or character should have their own likes and dislikes. If they are a rather nice person ( Tali ) then they should be cut out of a **** Shepards choices. if they are ****s themselves (Jack) then they should be cut out of Good Shepards choices.



Also the branch from ME1 shouldve let the love relationship continue or give a real reason to have ended. Or even given the choice or some more detail other then he died.



On the other note i was rather disapointed with the entire Citidel, it was like no1 gave a **** about me. and what idots couldnt find a part of a reaper to study when the thing was everywhere at the end of ME1. they just happened to lose 1.5 billion tons of metal.

[Naltair]

HAGA NAGA wrote...
The thing i don't understand is why "going for it" with Maleshep proves that Tali is 100% straight anyway. Maybe she is more apprehensive or shy about approaching Femshep in that manner for fear of outright repulsion or rejection on Femshep's part? it would certainly be in line with Tali's demeanor around Shepard.  And there are lots of "Real People" that are that way about their sexuality. Is that really so far fetched?

It's no more evidence than Thane being married or Kaidan talking about an old flame.  Or Garrus and his rematch with reach and flexibility.

At some point you just either have to accept it or not.  If you choose not to, no one can change your mind.

I see Tali as having a close platonic relationship even the missing dialog isn't really too sexual it's more coy and suggestive but not definitive.  It leaves open too much interpretation.

[Naltair]

TheShady wrote...

Naltair wrote...

True but I just think they made the decision, just like they did with Ashley and Kaidan in part 1, the option was there but they decided against it.

And I'm fine with that, really.

The thing about ME2 just is... DA:O was such an excellent example, imo. There was a homosexual option for both genders available. With all characters, whether you could romance them or not, there was a very emotional and satisfying conclusion (friendship) + a "loyalty quest" and at least  one "loyalty item".

I just think, even if it seems unrealistic, even if the odds speak against it, even if it defies all logic, adding a male homosexual and a female homosexual (or at least bisexual in both cases) is simply a good idea.

What just surprised me negatively was that, in DA:O you had 4 romancable characters, in ME2 you had 6 (or 8, depends on how you count) + the option to uphold a former relationship. None of those 6 were same-sex. It just felt silly.

I concur it feels silly, but this is where we are.

I would personally want to see a same sex male relationship long before a female one, and I would not even pursue it.

I don't care to be gay, but I support that the omission is glaring.

Modifié par Naltair, 09 février 2010 - 06:58 .

[Kolaris8472]

Schurge wrote...
Making Tali bisexual however, just because it gives her more dialogue and importance in the female Sheperd story is just pandering. The real problem is Bioware thinks we only want to talk to partners so we can pretend we've actually had sex.

EDIT: And yes I see the irony of my signature...

A few posts up I again point to why the "pandering" is a lesser-evil and more likely to happen than decent non-romantic dialog (which I would prefer), and I'd rather have pandering than nothing I suppose. Not that I think its impossible to make a good argument for why there's something bordering on physical intimacy between Femshep/Tali given the events of the game. 

[TheShady]

Naltair wrote...

TheShady wrote...

Naltair wrote...

True but I just think they made the decision, just like they did with Ashley and Kaidan in part 1, the option was there but they decided against it.

And I'm fine with that, really.

The thing about ME2 just is... DA:O was such an excellent example, imo. There was a homosexual option for both genders available. With all characters, whether you could romance them or not, there was a very emotional and satisfying conclusion (friendship) + a "loyalty quest" and at least  one "loyalty item".

I just think, even if it seems unrealistic, even if the odds speak against it, even if it defies all logic, adding a male homosexual and a female homosexual (or at least bisexual in both cases) is simply a good idea.

What just surprised me negatively was that, in DA:O you had 4 romancable characters, in ME2 you had 6 (or 8, depends on how you count) + the option to uphold a former relationship. None of those 6 were same-sex. It just felt silly.

I concur it feels silly, but this is where we are.

I would personally want to see a same sex male relationship long before a female one, and I would not even pursue it.

I don't care to be gay, but I support that the omission is glaring.

Agreed.

[tmp7704]

TheShady wrote...

How can a mute person be a voice actor?

It's not like animations are good enough to express the characters feelings in video games. So the only medium we have is voice acting. You can't twist that away from video games just like that...

You may be missing the point there

Which was, the different quality of voice work doesn't actually make the character itself (the one the voice work is intended to portray) any different. The male and female Shepard are intended to be the same person and they are the same person based on the same script -- they think the same, they use exactly the same lines, they make exactly the same decisions, take the same actions. The feelings are there and they're in both cases the same too, whether the player can perceive them in the voice or not.

Or to use example related to the game... the Elcor Hamlet has the same emotions human Hamlet does, even though voice work of at least one of them is going to be atrocious  But it doesn't make the Elcor Hamlet any different and "less deserving" person than the human-rendered Hamlet. They're still the same person in the end.

Modifié par tmp7704, 09 février 2010 - 07:03 .

[Naltair]

tmp7704 wrote...

TheShady wrote...

How can a mute person be a voice actor?

It's not like animations are good enough to express the characters feelings in video games. So the only medium we have is voice acting. You can't twist that away from video games just like that...

You may be missing the point there

Which was, the different quality of voice work doesn't actually make the character itself (the one the voice work is intended to portray) any different. The male and female Shepard are intended to be the same person and they are the same person based on the same script -- they think the same, they use exactly the same lines, they make exactly the same decisions, take the same actions. The feelings are there and they're in both cases the same too, whether the player can perceive them in the voice or not.

Or to use example related to the game... the Elcor Hamlet has the same emotions human Hamlet does, even though voice work of at least one of them is going to be atrocious  But it doesn't make the Elcor Hamlet any different and "less deserving" person.

You make me agree with you every time.

Let's go to Brokeback Mountain.

[Kolaris8472]

tmp7704 wrote...

TheShady wrote...

How can a mute person be a voice actor?

It's not like animations are good enough to express the characters feelings in video games. So the only medium we have is voice acting. You can't twist that away from video games just like that...

You may be missing the point there

Which was, the different quality of voice work doesn't actually make the character itself (the one the voice work is intended to portray) any different. The male and female Shepard are intended to be the same person and they are the same person based on the same script -- they think the same, they use exactly the same lines, they make exactly the same decisions, take the same actions. The feelings are there and they're in both cases the same too, whether the player can perceive them in the voice or not.

Or to use example related to the game... the Elcor Hamlet has the same emotions human Hamlet does, even though voice work of at least one of them is going to be atrocious  But it doesn't make the Elcor Hamlet any different and "less deserving" person.

Off-topic but I disagree with this. Inflection plays a huge part in conveying a character. Male Shephard, for reasons we can't control, is not capable of sarcasm. I end up having to play my character accordingly. 

[Naltair]

Kolaris8472 wrote...
Off-topic but I disagree with this. Inflection plays a huge part in conveying a character. Male Shephard, for reasons we can't control, is not capable of sarcasm. I end up having to play my character accordingly. 

I must be weird because I find him capable of sarcasm and emotion all through the play experience.

Well sarcasm can be hard to do I suppose but I definitely feel emotion in his voice.

Modifié par Naltair, 09 février 2010 - 07:05 .

[Guaritor]

Kolaris8472 wrote...

Schurge wrote...
Making Tali bisexual however, just because it gives her more dialogue and importance in the female Sheperd story is just pandering. The real problem is Bioware thinks we only want to talk to partners so we can pretend we've actually had sex.

EDIT: And yes I see the irony of my signature...

A few posts up I again point to why the "pandering" is a lesser-evil and more likely to happen than decent non-romantic dialog (which I would prefer), and I'd rather have pandering than nothing I suppose. Not that I think its impossible to make a good argument for why there's something bordering on physical intimacy between Femshep/Tali given the events of the game. 

Right... the point is we want more out of our relationships with our crew... and right now BW doesn't put much into the BFF category.  The only way to get to know anyone better apparently is to sleep with them...

[Kolaris8472]

this isnt my name wrote...

No not every man/woman likes men/women, not every man likes men/womrn. Fact, face it you may like someone but they may never see you that way. A better way is have ME3 characters bi if youwant not change existing ones for a few people.

Its not changing, its resolving an inconsistency in a way that pleases more fans. 

[Collider]

Kolaris8472 wrote...
I'm certainly not a horny male player. That was never my reasoning. My reasoning was Tali expects people to judge her on a personality level while apparently not doing that for others (jumping in the pants of a xenopobic renegade), which I felt was an inconsistency.

Yea, you'll have to excuse me if I don't believe you. Tali is Bioware's character, they decide what constitutes as an inconsistency. And your reasoning for the "inconsistency" is extremely weak. You can argue for ANY character to be bisexual based upon your reasoning, because Shepard can behave the same way regardless of gender. Obviously, you forget the fact that the gender of Shepard is important. Male Shepard is the dashing hero to heterosexual Tali, female Shepard is the good friend to her.

[LordLucians]

Anyone else feel that the Tali Romance got the short end of the stick? We go through all that and we don't even get to see her face, or have a nice lil romance cut scene like in the first ME? WTH! they can't be worried about the losers that tried to flame them about the first ME sex scene since they burned themselves by saying they didn't even watch it lol only they heard it was "bad"

I was really let down