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Why Tali Should Be a Female Romance (OPTION)


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#276
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Kolaris8472 wrote...

this isnt my name wrote...

No not every man/woman likes men/women, not every man likes men/womrn. Fact, face it you may like someone but they may never see you that way. A better way is have ME3 characters bi if youwant not change existing ones for a few people.


Its not changing, its resolving an inconsistency in a way that pleases more fans. 


It is making a character who is not romanceable for women romanceable, changeing.
Hell at this rate why not make every character bi. I mean it could be just like life where everyone swings both ways, I mean who wouldnt bat for both teams thats just crazy if you dont want to screw everything.
Face it people have different tastes, if Tali isnt interested shes not interested, if Thane isnt interested he isnt interested.

#277
Kolaris8472

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Yea, you'll have to excuse me if I don't believe you. Tali is Bioware's character, they decide what constitutes as an inconsistency.


I hope you realize that this is ridiculous. If they're the ones that wrote it in the first place, wouldn't it be rather difficult to realize it? I'm not saying I'm a better writer than BioWare, and if you want to raise arms in the defense of "Tali jumping in the pants of a hateful Renegade is a revelation of character!", then I'll return to saying it was shallow development and deserves consideration.

And your reasoning for the "inconsistency" is extremely weak. You can argue for ANY character to be bisexual based upon your reasoning, because Shepard can behave the same way regardless of gender.


No you can't. The gender-neutral lines in all cases but Tali lead to nothing. With Tali, it ends on a close, intimate level, if not explicitly or implicitly romantic. 

Additionally, Tali would come off as the most likely to look past the physical with her suit-complex with the possible exception of Thane and his vessel philosophy. Everyone else puts a rather heavy importance on physical attractiveness. 

Obviously, you forget the fact that the gender of Shepard is important. Male Shepard is the dashing hero to heterosexual Tali, female Shepard is the good friend to her.


Except when you don't play a dashing hero but a renegade who stands in the way of all the choices Tali herself would make and she falls in love with him anyway. 

Modifié par Kolaris8472, 09 février 2010 - 07:14 .


#278
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Kolaris8472 wrote...

Off-topic but I disagree with this. Inflection plays a huge part in conveying a character. Male Shephard, for reasons we can't control, is not capable of sarcasm. I end up having to play my character accordingly. 

Personally i'm big fan for deadpan delivery when it comes to irony so i'll have to disagree -- in my eyes male Shepard can be excellent at sarcasm, so good it'll often fly over people's heads. If you deprive him of chance to use it, you're missing out.

(given Mark Meer is an actual comedian i simply can't buy him being unable to deliver it. It's imo more of case he's being less heavy handed with it because of professional bias/practice)

#279
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LordLucians wrote...

Anyone else feel that the Tali Romance got the short end of the stick? We go through all that and we don't even get to see her face, or have a nice lil romance cut scene like in the first ME? WTH! they can't be worried about the losers that tried to flame them about the first ME sex scene since they burned themselves by saying they didn't even watch it lol only they heard it was "bad"
I was really let down -_-

Yes you did have a romance cutscene, nudity doosent make it a love scene, its not needed, and this scene is better than the scenes in ME1 imo. And if they want to show her face they will, you act as though you deserved too see her face, you dont deserve anything as romances are optional they didnt have to make them in the first place. And no they didnt get the short end,lots of work seems to have been put into it, she wasnt intended to be a LI, so no not the short end by a long shot.

#280
Naltair

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You really need to drop the "personality" stance it does not hold water for any romance choice. In ME1 or ME2 you can be the largest jerk or the greatest hero ever and it does not really affect the romances as long as you make the right key choices.

#281
Naltair

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I should add I would like it to matter but it does not matter for any romance, so why just hers?

Modifié par Naltair, 09 février 2010 - 07:18 .


#282
Kolaris8472

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this isnt my name wrote...

Kolaris8472 wrote...

this isnt my name wrote...

No not every man/woman likes men/women, not every man likes men/womrn. Fact, face it you may like someone but they may never see you that way. A better way is have ME3 characters bi if youwant not change existing ones for a few people.


Its not changing, its resolving an inconsistency in a way that pleases more fans. 


It is making a character who is not romanceable for women romanceable, changeing.
Hell at this rate why not make every character bi. I mean it could be just like life where everyone swings both ways, I mean who wouldnt bat for both teams thats just crazy if you dont want to screw everything.
Face it people have different tastes, if Tali isnt interested shes not interested, if Thane isnt interested he isnt interested.


Not every character has a good reason to be "changed" or "resolved in a manner more pleasing to more fans". That's a needless slippery slope. 

Yes, different people have different tastes. My point has been that these tastes were ignored when having Tali romance a "Renegade" Shephard, so either close that line off or (more pleasing, more fans etc) let her pursue a romance with Femsheps where it actually makes a lick of sense. 

#283
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Kolaris8472 wrote...
I hope you realize that this is ridiculous. If they're the ones that wrote it in the first place, wouldn't it be rather difficult to realize it? I'm not saying I'm a better writer than BioWare, and if you want to raise arms in the defense of "Tali jumping in the pants of a hateful Renegade is a revelation of character!", then I'll return to saying it was shallow development and deserves consideration.

It IS Bioware's character. They know more about her than you do. Tali can be wooed by the fact that she was rescued twice by a handsome commander, who will go on to save the galaxy. That is important. Maybe you should be complaining about Tali's character instead.

Additionally, Tali would come off as the most likely to look past the physical with her suit-complex with the possible exception of Thane and his vessel philosophy. Everyone else puts a rather heavy importance on physical attractiveness.

The male and female genders aren't seperated just by outward appearance. The suit doesn't have ANYTHING to do with it. It doesn't override the typical biological desire to mate with the opposite sex. As I said, it is evolutionary beneficial for a species to be typically desirous of the opposite sex rather than the same sex. Can you just consider the likely possibility that Tali is heterosexual? Come on. A man can do the exact same things that an attractive woman does, but that doesn't mean I am going to be attracted to that man. A woman can swoon over the handsome fireman who saves her, but that does that mean she'll also fall for a female who does the same thing? NO.

Except when you don't play a dashing hero but a renegade who stands in the way of all the choices Tali herself would make and she falls in love with him anyway. 

People can fall in love with others even they don't agree with every thing they do. You should understand this. I'm sure male Shepard manly charm played a part in this.  And for the record, Tali won't even talk to you if you ratted out on her father, so you aren't really completely right anyways.

And for the record, ALL the romances in Mass Effect are the same way. As long as you aren't a jerk to them in specific conversations, they fall for you invariably. You can kill the Rachni queen and Liara will still jump on you, for example.

So as I said, you may as well argue that all characters should be bisexual.

Modifié par Collider, 09 février 2010 - 07:23 .


#284
Naltair

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Kolaris8472 wrote...
Not every character has a good reason to be "changed" or "resolved in a manner more pleasing to more fans". That's a needless slippery slope. 

Yes, different people have different tastes. My point has been that these tastes were ignored when having Tali romance a "Renegade" Shephard, so either close that line off or (more pleasing, more fans etc) let her pursue a romance with Femsheps where it actually makes a lick of sense. 

Again if you make this claim for the other LIs then I could support it but this same exact statement with minor modification can be made for any other LI in ME1 or ME2 and it would be still fit it is nothing intrinsic to just Tali.

The larger issue here is that the system does not account for many of your actions when it comes to romance just the key ones with the specific LIs.  I could be an very vocal Cerberus proponent and support TIM all the way and still have Jack fall in love with me...

#285
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Kolaris8472 wrote...

this isnt my name wrote...

Kolaris8472 wrote...

this isnt my name wrote...

No not every man/woman likes men/women, not every man likes men/womrn. Fact, face it you may like someone but they may never see you that way. A better way is have ME3 characters bi if youwant not change existing ones for a few people.


Its not changing, its resolving an inconsistency in a way that pleases more fans. 


It is making a character who is not romanceable for women romanceable, changeing.
Hell at this rate why not make every character bi. I mean it could be just like life where everyone swings both ways, I mean who wouldnt bat for both teams thats just crazy if you dont want to screw everything.
Face it people have different tastes, if Tali isnt interested shes not interested, if Thane isnt interested he isnt interested.


Not every character has a good reason to be "changed" or "resolved in a manner more pleasing to more fans". That's a needless slippery slope. 

Yes, different people have different tastes. My point has been that these tastes were ignored when having Tali romance a "Renegade" Shephard, so either close that line off or (more pleasing, more fans etc) let her pursue a romance with Femsheps where it actually makes a lick of sense. 

Lots of characters dont care about your choices outside of the romance plot, so again that would mean  this is basically a dateing sim, as every character is a potential romance, besides some people ignore traits they dont like purely  because they see the good things more than the bad. Legionmance ftw.

#286
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Naltair wrote...

I should add I would like it to matter but it does not matter for any romance, so why just hers?


Why?

Waffles

Thats why.

#287
Kolaris8472

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Naltair wrote...

You really need to drop the "personality" stance it does not hold water for any romance choice. In ME1 or ME2 you can be the largest jerk or the greatest hero ever and it does not really affect the romances as long as you make the right key choices.


It does certainly in ME1. Your love interest moves, even if subtly, to adopt your stance on things. Kaidan becomes less accepting of aliens, Ashley more-so. The pre-cursor to "Hardening" in DA:O and then again in ME2. 

#288
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this isnt my name wrote...
Lots of characters dont care about your choices outside of the romance plot, so again that would mean  this is basically a dateing sim, as every character is a potential romance, besides some people ignore traits they dont like purely  because they see the good things more than the bad. Legionmance ftw.

They "care" for a few lines and that's about it, barring basically one choice at most. As long as you are male and don't spill the beans on Tali's father, Tali's crush on male Shepard is compounded with evidenced trust. Despite the OP's laughable reasons, Tali nor any other character is being inconsistent. If anything, suddenly adding a female romance option for her may be inconsistent.

#289
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Kolaris8472 wrote...

Naltair wrote...

You really need to drop the "personality" stance it does not hold water for any romance choice. In ME1 or ME2 you can be the largest jerk or the greatest hero ever and it does not really affect the romances as long as you make the right key choices.


It does certainly in ME1. Your love interest moves, even if subtly, to adopt your stance on things. Kaidan becomes less accepting of aliens, Ashley more-so. The pre-cursor to "Hardening" in DA:O and then again in ME2. 


That isn't affecting the romances. They still fall for you in the same way whether you advocate the renegade, paragon, or neither position. as long as you say the right things during certain conversations (which basically amounts to not choosing some of the renegade options). Really, your entire thread comes off as you wanting to see some lesbian pr0n and giving weak reasons for it.

#290
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Collider wrote...

this isnt my name wrote...
Lots of characters dont care about your choices outside of the romance plot, so again that would mean  this is basically a dateing sim, as every character is a potential romance, besides some people ignore traits they dont like purely  because they see the good things more than the bad. Legionmance ftw.

They "care" for a few lines and that's about it, barring basically one choice at most. As long as you are male and don't spill the beans on Tali's father, Tali's crush on male Shepard is compounded with evidenced trust. Despite the OP's laughable reasons, Tali nor any other character is being inconsistent. If anything, suddenly adding a female romance option for her may be inconsistent.

Ok most choices, hell I can support tera firma but still have aliens wanting to screw me.

#291
Naltair

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Kolaris8472 wrote...

Naltair wrote...

You really need to drop the "personality" stance it does not hold water for any romance choice. In ME1 or ME2 you can be the largest jerk or the greatest hero ever and it does not really affect the romances as long as you make the right key choices.


It does certainly in ME1. Your love interest moves, even if subtly, to adopt your stance on things. Kaidan becomes less accepting of aliens, Ashley more-so. The pre-cursor to "Hardening" in DA:O and then again in ME2. 

Perhaps, but the point stands that it comes down to key choices.  Still does not discount my pro-Cerberus example and Jack.

#292
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Collider wrote...

Kolaris8472 wrote...

Naltair wrote...

You really need to drop the "personality" stance it does not hold water for any romance choice. In ME1 or ME2 you can be the largest jerk or the greatest hero ever and it does not really affect the romances as long as you make the right key choices.


It does certainly in ME1. Your love interest moves, even if subtly, to adopt your stance on things. Kaidan becomes less accepting of aliens, Ashley more-so. The pre-cursor to "Hardening" in DA:O and then again in ME2. 


That isn't affecting the romances. They still fall for you in the same way whether you advocate the renegade, paragon, or neither position. as long as you say the right things during certain conversations (which basically amounts to not choosing some of the renegade options). Really, your entire thread comes off as you wanting to see some lesbian pr0n and giving weak reasons for it.

I agree.

#293
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this isnt my name wrote...
Ok most choices, hell I can support tera firma but still have aliens wanting to screw me.

You're right, as I said, you can basically make any choice and they'll fall for you, provided you are of the correct gender.

OP's thread is like saying that I or any other poster should be heterosexual, bisexual, or homosexual. He doesn't know, nor are the reasons given good. It's easy to judge other people, but do we ever have the full picture? no.

#294
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Collider wrote...
It IS Bioware's character. They know more about her than you do. Tali can be wooed by the fact that she was rescued twice by a handsome commander, who will go on to save the galaxy. That is important. Maybe you should be complaining about Tali's character instead.


That's what I'm doing. Complaining about Tali's character development being either shallow or inconsistent. If its shallow like you think it is, does that change the fact that its a bad move?

The male and female genders aren't seperated just by outward appearance. The suit doesn't have ANYTHING to do with it. It doesn't override the typical biological desire to mate with the opposite sex. As I said, it is evolutionary beneficial for a species to be typically desirous of the opposite sex rather than the same sex. Can you just consider the likely possibility that Tali is heterosexual? Come on. A man can do the exact same things that an attractive woman does, but that doesn't mean I am going to be attracted to that man. A woman can swoon over the handsome fireman who saves her, but that does that mean she'll also fall for a female who does the same thing? NO.


Wait wait, if we're going to bring evolutionary imperative into this, what about the imperative to pursue members of your own species? 

I am perfectly willing to believe that Tali is heterosexual (never mind the confusing dialog I suppose, or the starting perspective that she was bisexual), but NOT that she falls for any man to come her way, especially when dropping expressing strong disapproval of his actions throughout the game. Then I come to how that should be resolved.

People can fall in love with others even they don't agree with every thing they do. You should understand this. I'm sure male Shepard manly charm played a part in this.  And for the record, Tali won't even talk to you if you ratted out on her father, so you aren't really completely right anyways.


Tali is the least likely to because of that mask "thing". Judging people by their actions and not by appearances or stero-types is extremely (or was apparently) important to her. 

And for the record, ALL the romances in Mass Effect are the same way. As long as you aren't a jerk to them in specific conversations, they fall for you invariably. You can kill the Rachni queen and Liara will still jump on you, for example.


Liara, interest in the Protheans, Miranda, looking after Cerberus interests, Jack, casual score, Ashley/Kaidan are actually influenced/have a reaction to your "alignment", Kelley, actually influenced/have a reaction to your "alignment", Garrus, actually influenced/have a reaction to your "alignment", have not romanced Jacob or Thane, Tali, where it makes the least sense, no reaction/influence by your "alignment". 

#295
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TheShady wrote...
3.) The canon is different if you play a maleShep or a femShep. So Tali does not "swing both ways". She'd just be into women if you're a femShep and into men if you're a maleShep. Same can apply to basically all characters.


Agreed, also I see the same several people come into threads like these to rally against this happening. I have to wonder why they are so adamant that OTHER people can't have something that WON'T affect them in the slightest. It makes my mind boggle. They aren't losing ANYTHING, and other people GAIN. Selfish, selfish, selfish! Also phobic depending on their motivations. And from some posts, I'd say phobia is definitely an issue here.

I'm supporting the OP. Why? Other people getting what they want out of this game won't harm mine.

#296
Naltair

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Jack is anything but casual if you follow her romance to the "normal" conclusion.



Now you are just ignoring evidence that does not support your claims.

#297
Kolaris8472

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Collider wrote...

Kolaris8472 wrote...

Naltair wrote...

You really need to drop the "personality" stance it does not hold water for any romance choice. In ME1 or ME2 you can be the largest jerk or the greatest hero ever and it does not really affect the romances as long as you make the right key choices.


It does certainly in ME1. Your love interest moves, even if subtly, to adopt your stance on things. Kaidan becomes less accepting of aliens, Ashley more-so. The pre-cursor to "Hardening" in DA:O and then again in ME2. 


That isn't affecting the romances. They still fall for you in the same way whether you advocate the renegade, paragon, or neither position. as long as you say the right things during certain conversations (which basically amounts to not choosing some of the renegade options). Really, your entire thread comes off as you wanting to see some lesbian pr0n and giving weak reasons for it.


But coming out the other side the relationship makes sense, because one side altered their views. This is the case in about half the romances, the other half have sustainable reasons (Jack interested in Sex, Miranda in the "investment", etc). Except for Tali. 

Read whatever motivations you want into a poster's perogative, I'm glad you're at least arguing the points. If this was just about lesbian porn I'd be trying to get Liara back or making the same arguments for Miranda, no? Either way to me the physical relationship between Shephard and Tali is ridiculous with the health risks involved, but this is better than having no resolution between Female Shephard and Tali whatsoever. 

#298
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Destructo-Bot wrote...

TheShady wrote...
3.) The canon is different if you play a maleShep or a femShep. So Tali does not "swing both ways". She'd just be into women if you're a femShep and into men if you're a maleShep. Same can apply to basically all characters.


Agreed, also I see the same several people come into threads like these to rally against this happening. I have to wonder why they are so adamant that OTHER people can't have something that WON'T affect them in the slightest. It makes my mind boggle. They aren't losing ANYTHING, and other people GAIN. Selfish, selfish, selfish! Also phobic depending on their motivations. And from some posts, I'd say phobia is definitely an issue here.

I'm supporting the OP. Why? Other people getting what they want out of this game won't harm mine.

It has nothing with hurting what they want, I am all for trying to help but I find it self serving when they want yet another same sex female romance and male Shepard has none.

#299
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Kolaris8472 wrote...

Wait wait, if we're going to bring evolutionary imperative into this, what about the imperative to pursue members of your own species? 

The sexual drive is specific but also not very sophisticated and as such not perfect -- it can make the person respond positively to certain features even if the target isn't actually capable of producing offsprings. A simple (if crass) example would be human ability to get turned on just by picture of attractive men/women.

#300
Kolaris8472

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Naltair wrote...

Jack is anything but casual if you follow her romance to the "normal" conclusion.

Now you are just ignoring evidence that does not support your claims.


Doesn't that at least take a Charm check? Which would at least be difficult to do if you've been siding with Cerberus everywhere or playing a Renegade.