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[Naltair]

Kolaris8472 wrote...

Collider wrote...

Kolaris8472 wrote...

Naltair wrote...

You really need to drop the "personality" stance it does not hold water for any romance choice. In ME1 or ME2 you can be the largest jerk or the greatest hero ever and it does not really affect the romances as long as you make the right key choices.

It does certainly in ME1. Your love interest moves, even if subtly, to adopt your stance on things. Kaidan becomes less accepting of aliens, Ashley more-so. The pre-cursor to "Hardening" in DA:O and then again in ME2. 

That isn't affecting the romances. They still fall for you in the same way whether you advocate the renegade, paragon, or neither position. as long as you say the right things during certain conversations (which basically amounts to not choosing some of the renegade options). Really, your entire thread comes off as you wanting to see some lesbian pr0n and giving weak reasons for it.

But coming out the other side the relationship makes sense, because one side altered their views. This is the case in about half the romances, the other half have sustainable reasons (Jack interested in Sex, Miranda in the "investment", etc). Except for Tali. 

Read whatever motivations you want into a poster's perogative, I'm glad you're at least arguing the points. If this was just about lesbian porn I'd be trying to get Liara back or making the same arguments for Miranda, no? Either way to me the physical relationship between Shephard and Tali is ridiculous with the health risks involved, but this is better than having no resolution between Female Shephard and Tali whatsoever. 

But your resolution stance goes for any character that isn't a compatible LI for your gender of Shepard.

Modifié par Naltair, 09 février 2010 - 07:47 .

[Naltair]

Kolaris8472 wrote...

Naltair wrote...

Jack is anything but casual if you follow her romance to the "normal" conclusion.

Now you are just ignoring evidence that does not support your claims.

Doesn't that at least take a Charm check? Which would at least be difficult to do if you've been siding with Cerberus everywhere or playing a Renegade. 

If you mean the argument between her and Miranda you can choose to side with jack if you wish or charm, butt he fact remains up until that specific point you can be very pro Cerberus and she can still want to be with you.

Siding with Cerberus is not exactly the same as being Renegade.

[Ninja Ataris]

Kolaris8472 wrote...

I am perfectly willing to believe that Tali is heterosexual (never mind the confusing dialog I suppose, or the starting perspective that she was bisexual), but NOT that she falls for any man to come her way, especially when dropping expressing strong disapproval of his actions throughout the game.

As said was before this goes for all the characters in both ME1 and ME2. It's called constraints in game mechanics. The matter of a companion falling for your character only and entirely has to do with how you respond to them when it matters. Picking the right option when it matters. They'd have to implement a completely new affection system to fix this a la DAO (which was kinda broke due to the gift system anyway). You're just being picky.

It's a matter of time constraints and resources. They might've effed up, I do not see this as reason to retconning or what you'd consider "fixing" Tali. Remove the dialogue that hints of affection if you want to, that's the only thing driving your discussion at this point. It's a third person narrative. Male Shephard is the default character, which is probably where most of the polish went.

[Naltair]

tmp7704 wrote...

Kolaris8472 wrote...

Wait wait, if we're going to bring evolutionary imperative into this, what about the imperative to pursue members of your own species? 

The sexual drive is specific but also not very sophisticated and as such not perfect -- it can make the person respond positively to certain features even if the target isn't actually capable of producing offsprings. A simple (if crass) example would be human ability to get turned on just by picture of attractive men/women.

Or the proliferation of erotic comics/animation especially in Japan.

[Kolaris8472]

Naltair wrote...
But your resolution stance goes for any character that isn't a compatible LI for your gender of Shepard.

What? I was saying Tal was/is unique in being completely ignorant to your actions and having no other reason to pursue the relationship than your actions.  

So, what you're saying is that for romance interests that change their views, you could use my arguments for them being same-sex LI? So, for Kelley (she is), then for Kaidan/Ashley. Kaidan, you could use most of them, but for Ashley she obviously has a high imperative on physical qualities to begin with. 

[Collider]

Kolaris8472 wrote...

That's what I'm doing. Complaining about Tali's character development being either shallow or inconsistent. If its shallow like you think it is, does that change the fact that its a bad move?

not a bad move. What I am saying is that you should dislike Tali's character, not the character development. Get it? You can dislike Jack, but recognize that the writing is unique and well written.

Wait wait, if we're going to bring evolutionary imperative into this, what about the imperative to pursue members of your own species?

That's also important, just as gender is important. We're not talking about Human X Hanar here, quarians are very humanoid in shape.

I am perfectly willing to believe that Tali is heterosexual (never mind the confusing dialog I suppose, or the starting perspective that she was bisexual), but NOT that she falls for any man to come her way, especially when dropping expressing strong disapproval of his actions throughout the game. Then I come to how that should be resolved.

She DOESN'T fall for any man. Shepard is predefined. You had to have saved her twice, and you had to have kept her father's actions a secret. If you see an attractive woman (in the likely case you are both male and heterosexual) don't you think it's just icing on the cake if she's got a great personality? This is the same thing here. Shepard is attractive - the fact that Shepard calls MShep "dashing" is evidence of this. AND he saved her twice, and was kind of enough not to ruin her father's reputation, even though it would both be telling the truth and certainly exonerating her from being exiled. If you treat her like **** and tell everyone her father was a short sighted idiot, she doesn't fall for you.

Tali is the least likely to because of that mask "thing". Judging people by their actions and not by appearances or stero-types is extremely (or was apparently) important to her.

Bull****. The only thing we got from her was that SHE appreciated that MALE Shepard looked past HER suit. She's made no mention of her own view. You can certainly think that appearance is of lesser importance than personality, but also like a good appearance. You can't fault people for thinking that appearance is important or at least a worthy aspect of attraction. It is, in part, evolutionary programmed, as well as affected by society. Appearance can tell a few things about a person - their health, their wealth, and how they take care of themselves, as well as other things. Tali saw the muscular, handsome, and able Shepard save her.

Liara, interest in the Protheans,

You don't need show an OUNCE of interest in the protheans. BS. I played the Liara romance. As long as you aren't a complete ass to her, she jumps on you.

Miranda, looking after Cerberus interests,
Jack, casual score,

What this amounts to is choosing the paragon option and not being an ass to them. Wow.

Ashley/Kaidan are actually influenced/have a reaction to your "alignment",

This doesn't affect the romance, it affects their views. That's it.

Kelley, actually influenced/have a reaction to your "alignment", Garrus, actually influenced/have a reaction to your "alignment", have not romanced Jacob or Thane, Tali, where it makes the least sense, no reaction/influence by your "alignment". 

Who said it has to do with alignment? The very fact that if you don't gain Tali's trust if you rat out on her father is enough. Don't grasp at straws. Tali is probably one of the most conditional romances. You need to take her on the loyalty mission, and do the right thing specifically. The others? Just don't be mean to them, and do their loyalty missions.

Modifié par Collider, 09 février 2010 - 07:54 .

[tmp7704]

Naltair wrote...

Or the proliferation of erotic comics/animation especially in Japan.

Now that you mention it, wonder if Fornax is printed in Japan.

[Naltair]

Kolaris8472 wrote...

Naltair wrote...
But your resolution stance goes for any character that isn't a compatible LI for your gender of Shepard.

What? I was saying Tal was/is unique in being completely ignorant to your actions and having no other reason to pursue the relationship than your actions.  

So, what you're saying is that for romance interests that change their views, you could use my arguments for them being same-sex LI? So, for Kelley (she is), then for Kaidan/Ashley. Kaidan, you could use most of them, but for Ashley she obviously has a high imperative on physical qualities to begin with. 

Whoops no, you stated that tali leaves you hanging.

I was saying that for any Li where you do not or cannot pursue the romance path they basically leave you hanging with the same looped response.

So your stance that somehow needs to be fixed just for her needs to be extended to all of them.

[DaeJi]

Makes sense to me, and I've always supported having same-sex romances patched into the game. Tali is a special case for me though, since my male Shepard is completely renegade (choice every renegade option in both games), and she comes on to him. After he complains about her, tells her to stop whining, blows her off, and refuses to give her the Geth data. Her joining me in the second game is a stretch as it is, but now she wants him? As opposed to my main female Shepard who is always there for her, it seems unfair. Still, my opinion isn't what I would call unbiased, so take it for what it is.

[Kolaris8472]

Ninja Ataris wrote...

Kolaris8472 wrote...

I am perfectly willing to believe that Tali is heterosexual (never mind the confusing dialog I suppose, or the starting perspective that she was bisexual), but NOT that she falls for any man to come her way, especially when dropping expressing strong disapproval of his actions throughout the game.

As said was before this goes for all the characters in both ME1 and ME2. It's called constraints in game mechanics. The matter of a companion falling for your character only and entirely has to do with how you respond to them when it matters. Picking the right option when it matters. They'd have to implement a completely new affection system to fix this a la DAO (which was kinda broke due to the gift system anyway). You're just being picky.

It's a matter of time constraints and resources. They might've effed up, I do not see this as reason to retconning or what you'd consider "fixing" Tali. Remove the dialogue that hints of affection if you want to, that's the only thing driving your discussion at this point. It's a third person narrative. Male Shephard is the default character, which is probably where most of the polish went.

If Maleshepard is the only one that matters then why did they add three female romance interests? Or why would they even care who a female can romance? 

The point isn't that its ideal, its that the proverbial "door" is open for fixing this one character in particular and like you say, the only alternative is adding in a bunch of flags which they won't do. 

If you want to argue that the door is in fact not open (lazily saying the dialog wasn't meant to be as suggestive for female Shephards...I could then say it should have been more suggestive), by all means do so. I've heard several good ones. But I don't get why you'd rather remove MORE dialog than add some. 

[Collider]

DaeJi wrote...
Makes sense to me, and I've always supported having same-sex romances patched into the game. Tali is a special case for me though, since my male Shepard is completely renegade (choice every renegade option in both games), and she comes on to him. After he complains about her, tells her to stop whining, blows her off, and refuses to give her the Geth data. Her joining me in the second game is a stretch as it is, but now she wants him? As opposed to my main female Shepard who is always there for her, it seems unfair. Still, my opinion isn't what I would call unbiased, so take it for what it is.

You ever consider that she is attracted to Male Shepard's masculinity? I mean, come on. It's not hard to understand. And for the record, all romances are like this. You can do nearly everything they disagree with, but if you respond correctly when they show interest, the romance begins. so the OP may as well be arguing that every character should be bisexual.

[HAGA NAGA]

Kolaris8472 wrote...

I am perfectly willing to believe that Tali is heterosexual (never mind the confusing dialog I suppose, or the starting perspective that she was bisexual), but NOT that she falls for any man to come her way, especially when dropping expressing strong disapproval of his actions throughout the game.

This is really a good point. seriously. i have a BIG problem with Shepard being able to romance squadmates who hate every decision Shepard is making and being vocal about it.NPCs that you can romance. To say that this is ok, but to start flipping out over an NPC being romanceable by Femshep when their is no story-based subject matter to negate it's feasibility is hard to understand.

People who oppose the Femshep Tali romance on the basis that "it doesn't make sense for the character" give themselves away when they say it's ok that "Renegade" Maleshep can romance her just as "Paragon" Maleshep can.

[Naltair]

DaeJi wrote...

Makes sense to me, and I've always supported having same-sex romances patched into the game. Tali is a special case for me though, since my male Shepard is completely renegade (choice every renegade option in both games), and she comes on to him. After he complains about her, tells her to stop whining, blows her off, and refuses to give her the Geth data. Her joining me in the second game is a stretch as it is, but now she wants him? As opposed to my main female Shepard who is always there for her, it seems unfair. Still, my opinion isn't what I would call unbiased, so take it for what it is.

Again your renegade female Shepard could act the same way and she would still want to be good friends with you.  The conversation system is limited it always has been.

You really can't point to that and then say see my jerk Shepard gets her but my caring female Shepard does not, how dare they.

When in fact the same could be said for any LI where you act in a way that seems to not be aligned with their motives or character.

On top of that why then must someone return your emotions just because you like them when in fact you as the player can turn down people that like you.  Should you feel obligated to like them just because they like you?  No because you feel it isn't in character for you and you should respect that is just may not be in character for them.

[DaeJi]

Collider wrote...
You ever consider that she is attracted to Male Shepard's masculinity? I mean, come on. It's not hard to understand. And for the record, all romances are like this. You can do nearly everything they disagree with, but if you respond correctly when they show interest, the romance begins. so the OP may as well be arguing that every character should be bisexual.

I for one support every love interest being bisexual. Tons more room for the player to customize his or her Shepard.

[Naltair]

HAGA NAGA wrote...

Kolaris8472 wrote...

I am perfectly willing to believe that Tali is heterosexual (never mind the confusing dialog I suppose, or the starting perspective that she was bisexual), but NOT that she falls for any man to come her way, especially when dropping expressing strong disapproval of his actions throughout the game.

This is really a good point. seriously. i have a BIG problem with Shepard being able to romance squadmates who hate every decision Shepard is making and being vocal about it.NPCs that you can romance. To say that this is ok, but to start flipping out over an NPC being romanceable by Femshep when their is no story-based subject matter to negate it's feasibility is hard to understand.

People who oppose the Femshep Tali romance on the basis that "it doesn't make sense for the character" give themselves away when they say it's ok that "Renegade" Maleshep can romance her just as "Paragon" Maleshep can.

If you read my posts I never say this, I do say that the system as it exists right now just does not account for this in a fully fleshed out manner.

[Goat_Shepard]

Sorry too lazy to rifle through to see if someone answered me. You cannot have a bisexual FemShep and a heterosexual MaleShep, it's just inconsistent, unfair, and unnecessary. Enjoy the game as it is, if you want to romance Tali, do it as MaleShep (who is actually a really sweet guy) and live with being best friends with her as FemShep. I for one am playing the game as a FemShep and I'm romancing Garrus because he's my best friend. No I'm not gay, but I will do this playthrough for the extra content, because even if Garrus is only talking romance, he's still talking about himself and I'm interested in what he has to say. Instead of complaining that Garrus isn't bisexual, I'm living with the fact that I have to go through as FemShep to see extra content, which isn't asking too much. Why can't you do the same?

[Collider]

Kolaris8472 wrote...
If Maleshepard is the only one that matters then why did they add three female romance interests? Or why would they even care who a female can romance?

Most of the Tali fans are heterosexual males who play as males. What does that prioritize? Male Shepard romance for Tali, instead of having Jeniffer Hale voice the Tali romance, which would practically be wasting time and money. I can assure you the amount of female players dwarfs the amount of people who specifically want a Tali lesbian option. 

The point isn't that its ideal, its that the proverbial "door" is open for fixing this one character in particular and like you say, the only alternative is adding in a bunch of flags which they won't do.

It is only YOUR interpretation that the lines are suggestive. A lot of people like to project their own desires into perceived subtext. I see this all the time. Ultimately, it is Bioware's character, and as I've said, you give very flimsy reasons for a lesbian Tali romance. If I am correct, it basically amounts to Tali should be a lesbian option because Tali doesn't care if male Shepard is renegade or not. Wow. 1+1=3 too, right? Like I said, criticize the character for not caring enough about Shepard making decisiosn she disagrees with.

If you want to argue that the door is in fact not open (lazily saying the dialog wasn't meant to be as suggestive for female Shephards...I could then say it should have been more suggestive), by all means do so. I've heard several good ones. But I don't get why you'd rather remove MORE dialog than add some. 

Who says lesbian tali romance lines were even recorded? They can save time and money by not recording lines that the majority of the audience don't care or want.

[Naltair]

DaeJi wrote...

Collider wrote...
You ever consider that she is attracted to Male Shepard's masculinity? I mean, come on. It's not hard to understand. And for the record, all romances are like this. You can do nearly everything they disagree with, but if you respond correctly when they show interest, the romance begins. so the OP may as well be arguing that every character should be bisexual.

I for one support every love interest being bisexual. Tons more room for the player to customize his or her Shepard.

I don't agree I still think gender choice should matter.  It adds to replay and the only real place where the two Shepards are different is in their romance choices.

[Collider]

HAGA NAGA wrote...
People who oppose the Femshep Tali romance on the basis that "it doesn't make sense for the character" give themselves away when they say it's ok that "Renegade" Maleshep can romance her just as "Paragon" Maleshep can.

No, you're incorrect. Being renegade/paragon is not the equivalent of being male/female. Don't be ridiculous.

[Naltair]

Lines were recorded but they are not really indicative of anything but a close yet coy relationship. nothing is really defined not like they are in the male Shepard experience.

[Collider]

Naltair wrote...

DaeJi wrote...

Collider wrote...
You ever consider that she is attracted to Male Shepard's masculinity? I mean, come on. It's not hard to understand. And for the record, all romances are like this. You can do nearly everything they disagree with, but if you respond correctly when they show interest, the romance begins. so the OP may as well be arguing that every character should be bisexual.

I for one support every love interest being bisexual. Tons more room for the player to customize his or her Shepard.

I don't agree I still think gender choice should matter.  It adds to replay and the only real place where the two Shepards are different is in their romance choices.

I like characters having varying sexualities. Do you think the player will not notice if EVERY romanceable character is bisexual, and come on, how likely is that? Part of the Bioware's charm is their varied characters, who often bout with each other, who often are at polar opposites. Part of a character is their sexuality.

Let's have Shepard able to run around the citadel naked because it adds more options too :l

[Ninja Ataris]

Kolaris8472 wrote...

If Maleshepard is the only one that matters then why did they add three female romance interests? Or why would they even care who a female can romance? 

Because they're nice guys. Apparently three romance interests weren't enough though. What I'm saying is that their main focus is on the male Shep. If you think the character design and dialogue is too sloppy don't buy their game.

Kolaris8472 wrote...

The point isn't that its ideal, its that the proverbial "door" is open for fixing this one character in particular and like you say, the only alternative is adding in a bunch of flags which they won't do. 

If you want to argue that the door is in fact not open (lazily saying the dialog wasn't meant to be as suggestive for female Shephards...I could then say it should have been more suggestive), by all means do so. I've heard several good ones. But I don't get why you'd rather remove MORE dialog than add some. 

Because removing dialogue costs less money, time and energy than creating entirely new subplots. I'd prefer a high quality more focused experience like Mass Effect 2 over DAO's hundreds of options but with a lot less depth. It's a matter of taste I guess. Bioware does not have infinite money or time, sorry.

I don't see any doors being open. People are seeing what they want to see.

Modifié par Ninja Ataris, 09 février 2010 - 08:07 .

[trigger2kill1]

Because in the 22nd century we (the human sprcies) are trying to increase our numbers not trying to UN-breed our selves into extinction. Therefore there is no reason nor any room for any nonproductive couplings.



If you don't like my answer tough ship, live with it. Infact those of you that wish for that sort of thing are in the extreem minority. So put that in your pipe and smoke it, instead of the buffalo chips that you are usually smoking!

[Collider]

Naltair wrote...
Lines were recorded but they are not really indicative of anything but a close yet coy relationship. nothing is really defined not like they are in the male Shepard experience.

It's still Bioware's character, as I said. They can record lines, but then decide to oust them. This actually happens all the time, regardless if the dialogue is romantic or not. I am doubtful that all the lines for the romance, if any, were recorded by Hale, but still, if Bioware decides to oust it, then Bioware has virtually decided that Tali is heterosexual. Nothing about a character is concrete before release, they aren't finalized with the very first design concept. Take SuZe for example, she went through many different outfits and looks. Ultimately, they chose what they chose, and that IS SuZe.

[HAGA NAGA]

Naltair wrote...

Again your renegade female Shepard could act the same way and she would still want to be good friends with you.  The conversation system is limited it always has been.

You really can't point to that and then say see my jerk Shepard gets her but my caring female Shepard does not, how dare they.

That may be what some others are erroneously doing. but, i'm saying that people who are Against Femshep romancing Tali on the basis that it doesn't fit the character should realise that Renegade Maleshep being able to romance Tali already makes no sense whatsoever. 

Femshep romancing Tali is not feasible with respect to her Character = Nothing to support that

Renegade romancing Tali is not feasible with respect to her Character = More than ample Dialogue/content to support that