617 réponses à ce sujet

[Lightice_av]

For the record, I have NO problem with f/f relationships and hope you guys get some for ME3, but Tali is not bisexual and it would be a retcon to make her so.

Well, it was originally planned; there still are soundfiles in the game folders that include FemShep asking Mordin medical advice about getting involved with Tali. It's not an incredibly huge deal to me that it's not in the game, but nor do I see significant problem in implementing it.

[Arrtis]

Captain Jazz wrote...

Arrtis wrote...

I think its better to not have a gay shepard...makes more sense in someways that i will not discuss.

Because gay people don't exist in the military?

 in someways that i will not discuss

[Ziggeh]

Not that I particularly mind one way or the other (it has pros and cons from a storytelling position, which is the only thing I care about) but beyond "X is X because thats how the game is", which rather defeats the object of a feedback forum, "Tali is straight because she's straight" isn't a fabulous argument. True, sexual interest is a complex business thats fairly irrational, so it's hard to say she should be this or that based on evidence or example, if one acts a certain way, you generally take it as read.

However, we're talking about a cross species relationship with someone from an alien race with little to no concept of body image. I can't really see how gender, species, or indeed anything thats essentially physical could be a part of quarian attraction, living life as they do inside of a space suit. I suppose you could argue gender is not physical, but then we can point at shepard and say he or she acts identically regardless.

Modifié par ziggehunderslash, 10 février 2010 - 02:38 .

[addiction21]

Llames wrote...

  i like waffles

HEY!

Me too!!!

[Ninja Ataris]

Retconning sucks. Hope Bioware keeps it to a minimum.

[Ziggeh]

Ninja Ataris wrote...

Retconning sucks. Hope Bioware keeps it to a minimum.

The game should self destruct after one play through to ensure you don't get the narrative in a different way on subsequent play throughs.

[Vaenier]

It would not be retconning for tali to be bi. The groundwork is already there, you can feel it in her dialogue. Maybe she just needed more time to come around to the idea. Characters are always evolving and growing. Plus all characters can be influenced by Shep throughout the game, there is no set 'identity' for them.

Does anybody have a complete list of all the thoughts that went through her head? What makes you so sure that she could never be bi?

[Naltair]

TheShady wrote...
Also another issue is the simple lack of proper relationship conclusions without romance. This applies to all characters for any gender of the Shepard that you didn't romance in your playthrough and has nothing to do with f/f or m/m relationships. It's simply a bad thing about the game. Example: femSheps or maleSheps who don't romance Jack have no way of making her "good Jack" or even find about the name SuZe (I assume you find out about that if you paragon-romance Jack as on my first playthrough I did not find out about that). Another example: I refused Garrus as a romance and could not get a proper "we're best friends forever, thank you" conversation.
Some characters are just lacking in conclusion, including Tali if you don't romance her.

Interesting but there is a difference between influencing a character and changing them. I think a character should have set traits that make them easier to identify.  I mean if someone says who is that lesbian blue alien in Mass Effect most people will think Liara, even if her being lesbian isn't a trait it's something that most people can identify about her, based on her actions in game.

But that is unchanging she is always that way in everyone's playthru.  On the flip side your idea would give us multiple versions based on how you play and I am not in agreement there, there is something to be said for consistency.  I am not playing these games to meet multiple versions of Jack, Ashley, or Legion; I am playing o meet the characters they envisioned.  Then I react to them and I will either agree with them or not agree, I may influence them positively or negatively but it is all based on their character not what version I am playing with.

Changing a character though means changing that trait that is consistent in everyone's game.  To use Liara again it would mean that suddenly a female Shepard is told, sorry most asari do not discriminate on gender but I do and I like only men.  I would be incensed by this because this is a definite change that affects how we see her character.  It's not even a matter of pleasing people it's a change that people would hate, because now Liara is not Liara even if it seems innocuous.  Something intrinsic about her character and interactions is gone.

It changes how we, the players see her.  It changes in a large way how you can interact with her.

Personally I would rather have consistency across all playthrus, and let the story be told as is.  If you think that something needs to be changed then please say it, but don't expect everyone to agree.  The easiest solution to this "dilemma" would be making everyone bisexual and I am totally and always be against that it cheapens the setting immensely.  You may not get the romance choice you like, but you still get a fantastic game, and if you really want to romance her currently then roll a male character.  I would have to do the same if I wanted Garrus, and I don't think it is too much to ask.  If you hate the VA in question, male or female, that is on you not BioWare or whatever reason you have for not playing said gender.

I still say that gender choice should matter, and thus far BioWare has agreed with that idea.

As an aside, I do agree that friendly interactions are cut way too short in ME2 and I hope they rectify that for ME3, they should not all get too busy to talk to me just because I am the wrong gender for romance or turn them down.

[Ninja Ataris]

Vaenier wrote...

It would not be retconning for tali to
be bi. The groundwork is already there, you can feel it in her
dialogue. Maybe she just needed more time to come around to the idea.
Characters are always evolving and growing. Plus all characters can be
influenced by Shep throughout the game, there is no set 'identity' for
them.
Does anybody have a complete list of all the thoughts that
went through her head? What makes you so sure that she could never be
bi?

What makes you so damn sure she can be?

It's cut, going back and changing the content means retconning the character.

Add to that it would divert time, money and energy that could be spent on other things, such as new characters that you can make bi without effing up the old ones. Add to that it would create an imbalance in the number of romances male Shephard can pursue vs female Shephard. Which means there'd be more QQ and we'd need a new romance on that side, which means even more time and energy diverted from the sequel or new content. You can't get EVERYTHING. Making new content is better than going back and trying to appease to everyone.

Modifié par Ninja Ataris, 10 février 2010 - 02:54 .

[Naltair]

Vaenier wrote...

It would not be retconning for tali to be bi. The groundwork is already there, you can feel it in her dialogue. Maybe she just needed more time to come around to the idea. Characters are always evolving and growing. Plus all characters can be influenced by Shep throughout the game, there is no set 'identity' for them.
Does anybody have a complete list of all the thoughts that went through her head? What makes you so sure that she could never be bi?

Influence is different from changing.

I can influence Garrus in ME1 to see that my ways are right, I can't influence him to go gay.  That isn't how people work unless they have the inclination or want to explore that.  Characters do evolve and grow, but why is that people say that someone can evolve and grow along the same lines of figuring out they are bisexual.

Is this something I missed in school?  Is the natural progression of all people to evolve and grow into being bisexual or gay?  I have nothing against that lifestyle but there is a logical fallacy here, something does not make sense.  Maybe she is way deep in the closet, even if she is, it does not matter she is not coming out of that closet in ME2.  But the idea that this somehow deepens her character, or evolves her is just false.

All it does is clarify an uncertainty.  An uncertainty that I think is probably fueled more by self interest and desire than actual in-game evidence.  Cut dialog although somewhat compelling is no more evidence than extra scenes on a DVD; they may be interesting but they are not part of the actual narrative and were cut for whatever reason.

Modifié par Naltair, 10 février 2010 - 03:00 .

[Ninja Ataris]

Luc0s wrote...

Miranda could be bisexual and get away with it.
Jack being bisexual would make sense.
I'm sure Samara is bisexual like Liara.
But NOT Tali... no... Tali is NOT bisexual!

I don't see how Miranda could be bisexual either.

Asari technically don't have genders, but I mean, they're there for anyone who wants girl on girl action.

Jack I have not interacted with too much to know about.

[Ziggeh]

Vaenier wrote...

It would not be retconning for tali to be bi. The groundwork is already there, you can feel it in her dialogue. Maybe she just needed more time to come around to the idea. Characters are always evolving and growing. Plus all characters can be influenced by Shep throughout the game, there is no set 'identity' for them.

To be honest, I suspect the objection is less to do with narrative concerns or motivations and more to do with how people see gay/lesbian/bi. In the same way people equate "gay" with "soft", they see "bi" as "nympho", or at least "sexualised" (see Olivia Wilde in House for details. Extensively if needs be).

It's a misassociation, and not one everyone will make, but I think its common enough to effect how a character is written, you're essentially sculpting them around peoples expectations, and as false as I and others might see it, I guess you can't just ignore them.

[Naltair]

Jack mentions having same sex encounters before well at least a threesome with a guy and girl.

[SL22]

Tali is not a lesbian, your argument is invalid.

[mintek]

Big wall of text from the OP. How ever nice to tali your fem shepard was in m1 and m2, just like irl you cant turn ppl homosexual. How ever you want to put it, its the fact shes not attracted physicaly by womans. She can be your fem shep best friend or what ever. Its as simple as that character like tali, miranda, ashley dont want to be involved with someone that doesent have a stick betwen their legs, its the writters choice.

Modifié par mintek, 10 février 2010 - 03:12 .

[Vaenier]

Naltair wrote...

Influence is different from changing.

I can influence Garrus in ME1 to see that my ways are right, I can't influence him to go gay.  That isn't how people work unless they have the inclination or want to explore that.  Characters do evolve and grow, but why is that people say that someone can evolve and grow along the same lines of figuring out they are bisexual.

I evolved and grew to learning i was bi. I feel it is a superior point of view to not focus on sex in a relationship, but mainly on how someone makes you feel inside. But that is my opinion and is no way proven fact, and being streight doesnt make you dumb, just different. Dont twist my words to make it sound bad; I have trouble conveying my feelings in writing.

Is this something I missed in school?  Is the natural progression of all people to evolve and grow into being bisexual or gay?

I said could, I never said must. Dont bring it to the extreme.

I have nothing against that lifestyle but there is a logical fallacy here, something does not make sense.  Maybe she is way deep in the closet, even if she is, it does not matter she is not coming out of that closet in ME2.  But the idea that this somehow deepens her character, or evolves her is just false.

How does more choice not deepen her character. Every single bit of info you learn about someone gives you further insight to their personality. The amount of depth could seem miniscuel to you, but others feel differently.

All it does is clarify an uncertainty.  An uncertainty that I think is probably fueled more by self interest and desire than actual in-game evidence.

As I said earlier, the feeling is in her diologue. I cant describe it, you should play a femShep and see for yourself the evidance, or maybe find a youtube vid of it. I envy the Geth, everything is simple numbers to them, pure logic.

[SimonTheFrog]

Luc0s wrote...


PS: I'm getting sick and tired of these whiney people who whiny about "mehhh my femshep can't romance tali mehhh QQ". Seriously, get the f*ck over yourself and just play a male Shepard or live with the consequences of being a female character! I bet 90% of you QQ-ing people about Tali not being bisexual are actually sad little boys who need to get laid.
Sorry if I'm being harsh but threads like this are starting to ****** me off...

Hehe, you practically LIVE in this thread, defending the straightness of Tali again and again. If it is pissing you off, why not leave? Why is it so important for you that she must be straight, even in other peoples playthroughs?

Also, what if people like me (femShep players) are sad boys needing to get laid... so what? I paid the same money for the game like you did.
It's about having the option. There's a lot of love between Tali and Shep either way and for femShep it just get's cut off somewhere in the middle, no romance, no friendship, no talking about migrant fleet or whatever, just cleaning the engine. That's bad.

[Captain Jazz]

Arrtis wrote...

Captain Jazz wrote...

Arrtis wrote...

I think its better to not have a gay shepard...makes more sense in someways that i will not discuss.

Because gay people don't exist in the military?

 in someways that i will not discuss

Because 'they' have discovered the 'gay gene' and have eradicated it through 'their' genetic engineering programmes?

Luc0s wrote...

Yeah, femshep is like Tali's bigger
sister, that's how I see the relationship between femshep and Tali and
that's how it's supposed to be.

...*cough*
Well... Legion and Tali are both so into Shepard that they get over their prejudices and have a wild threesome in the cargo hold. That's how I see the relationship between Tali, Legion and femshep and that's how it's supposed to be.

Modifié par Captain Jazz, 10 février 2010 - 03:34 .