617 réponses à ce sujet

[Ziggeh]

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

ziggehunderslash wrote...

Vaenier wrote...

It would not be retconning for tali to be bi. The groundwork is already there, you can feel it in her dialogue. Maybe she just needed more time to come around to the idea. Characters are always evolving and growing. Plus all characters can be influenced by Shep throughout the game, there is no set 'identity' for them.

To be honest, I suspect the objection is less to do with narrative concerns or motivations and more to do with how people see gay/lesbian/bi. In the same way people equate "gay" with "soft", they see "bi" as "nympho", or at least "sexualised" (see Olivia Wilde in House for details. Extensively if needs be).

It's a misassociation, and not one everyone will make, but I think its common enough to effect how a character is written, you're essentially sculpting them around peoples expectations, and as false as I and others might see it, I guess you can't just ignore them.

When I say I don't think Tali is bi, it's not because I have a magic "gaydar" thing going on.  It's not her personality or her body.  It's her actions.  I have seen absolutely nothing in my numerous femshep playthroughs that led me to believe she was even remotely attracted to my femshep or any other female character.  I think other people seeing it there is just because they desperately WANT Tali to be bi so they can romance her.  I have the same phenomenon with Garrus in ME1 as do lots of other Garrus addicts.  There's all kinds of lines we really WANT to be innuendos or implicative of attraction.  "Please, for you it's just Garrus."  "Just tell me what you need me to do and I'll do it."  I'd love those lines to mean more than they do, but they don't.  The bottom line is he says most of them to dudeshep as well as femshep, or he says them in ME1 when the devs had no inkling anyone would want him as a LI.  It's fun to "read between the lines" but it doesn't mean what I want to be there is really there.  I think the same thing is true of Tali.

Strictly speaking all the romancable characters act in a way I'd describe as "interested" regardless of gender as they share the dialogue up until the gender check and "into you" exchange, which for me made the non romancable characters far richer and interesting as their narrative went somewhere rather than halting abruptly (Samara aside, I'm not comfortable enough with Biowares "third person" story to be hitting on dudes).

But thats sort of beside the point, whether the dialogue exists or not isn't really the issue, its whether its concievable (across species, don't think you can apply any sexual standards, personally) and how it effects how people see the character, which it would, right or wrong.

[mintek]

Sorry i finished the game with both a fem shep and a male shep. There is nothing in any of her dialogue that would even point out her being in anyway attracted to Female shep in anyway. If the dialogue you got from her sounded like she was attracted to your character sexualy then i guess majority of the character you meet in the game as paragon are as well. Lets have a huge orgy on the normandy ffs.

[Ninja Ataris]

SimonTheFrog wrote...

Luc0s wrote...


PS: I'm getting sick and tired of these whiney people who whiny about "mehhh my femshep can't romance tali mehhh QQ". Seriously, get the f*ck over yourself and just play a male Shepard or live with the consequences of being a female character! I bet 90% of you QQ-ing people about Tali not being bisexual are actually sad little boys who need to get laid.
Sorry if I'm being harsh but threads like this are starting to ****** me off...

Hehe, you practically LIVE in this thread, defending the straightness of Tali again and again. If it is pissing you off, why not leave? Why is it so important for you that she must be straight, even in other peoples playthroughs?

Also, what if people like me (femShep players) are sad boys needing to get laid... so what? I paid the same money for the game like you did.
It's about having the option. There's a lot of love between Tali and Shep either way and for femShep it just get's cut off somewhere in the middle, no romance, no friendship, no talking about migrant fleet or whatever, just cleaning the engine. That's bad.

Games are not about democracy. You pay the money to be allowed the entertainment value of Bioware's product. They choose what goes into the game at the end of the day. If you don't like it, don't buy it. Of course they can always listen to their fans, but you are not entitled to anything beyond playing the game.

A lot of conversations get cut off midpoint. It's a flaw in the dialogue trees.

I still have not seen anyone argue why Bioware should go back and modify ME2 and provide new content exclusive to only those playing female Shephard instead of focusing on ME3 or providing new content (maybe a bi character?). At least that would provide new content for male Shephard players as well, instead of creating an unbalanced number of romances for the different genders.

Modifié par Ninja Ataris, 10 février 2010 - 03:34 .

[TheShady]

@ Naltair: Of course characters need to be persistent across playthroughs too to some extent. But I like influencing characters and changing their characters was a very big positive point for me in KoTOR 2. It's something I miss in all of Bioware's games, actually. But that's a game mechanic that Bioware decided not to put much emphasis on and that's fine. I just mentioned it as an example, which is also to some degree visible in Bioware-titles, that character characteristics can indeed change in a playthrough and do not have to be 100% persistent throughout playthroughs.

To me bisexuality/homosexuality is not a big deal. Is it really that much of a defining character trait? Really? It's not like the dialog or the scene have to change in any way. There's really not that much difference between a homosexual couple and a heterosexual couple, even in real life, unless we're talking about what's going on in the bedroom, which is not at all the issue here. The only biggest difference is that they can't make babies and that's frankly quite irrelevant for ME. Plus it's like 2150... I'm sure there's ways.
So, for me, Tali or any other character would not be someone completely different all of a sudden should she be bisexual or homosexual in that one specific playthrough.

But, the way the ME2-romances and general squadmate-interaction is built, it would indeed not work for everyone to be bisexual as with the romances, there's somewhat of a heavy emphasis on the sexual part (frankly, I would not be against cutting the sex-part out completely, I would welcome it even, at least in ME2). It would have worked in ME1, though, Kaidan and Ashley both at least showing signs of romantic affection towards Shepard, no matter what Shep's gender, and it would have worked even better in the KoTOR-games, what with the force-bonds you create with all your teammates and all.
Everyone being bisexual or homosexual in your specific playthrough is against the odds in ME2. I think, though, that with 10 squadmates of all kinds of different species and cultures, it's against the odds that not one of them is bisexual/homosexual (or at least open to try it with god-like Commander Shepard), too.

Luc0s wrote...

Yeah, femshep is like Tali's bigger sister, that's how I see the relationship between femshep and Tali and that's how it's supposed to be.
If you're femshep, you're like a big sister to Tali, not a potential love interrest. Period.

I could agree very much to that if I got the chance to express that in the game. Couldn't care less about the romance. I want a deep relationship, no matter if it's sexual or not, with all the characters and especially Tali.

Modifié par TheShady, 10 février 2010 - 03:40 .

[mintek]

Vaenier wrote...

I evolved and grew to learning i was bi. I feel it is a superior point of view to not focus on sex in a relationship, but mainly on how someone makes you feel inside.

Then why do you care so much if tali have sex with your female shepard? I agree a relationship cant be only based on sex... she likes both male and female shepard and have respect for them. But shes a heterosexual its as simple as that.

I have very good friends, infact my best friend knows more about my life/past then any of my gf or my current wife ever did. Does it mean i need to start a relationship with him? No i dont have any attraction to a guy however tight and friendly we have been for years.

[Vaenier]

mintek wrote...

Vaenier wrote...

I evolved and grew to learning i was bi. I feel it is a superior point of view to not focus on sex in a relationship, but mainly on how someone makes you feel inside.

Then why do you care so much if tali have sex with your female shepard? I agree a relationship cant be only based on sex... she likes both male and female shepard and have respect for them.

I dont care if they ever have sex. I just feel that the potential for love is there.

Knowing about someones past and loving them are different things. Truely loving someone means you would do anything for them, not just have sex once before a major mission.

[mintek]

Vaenier wrote...

mintek wrote...

Vaenier wrote...

I evolved and grew to learning i was bi. I feel it is a superior point of view to not focus on sex in a relationship, but mainly on how someone makes you feel inside.

Then why do you care so much if tali have sex with your female shepard? I agree a relationship cant be only based on sex... she likes both male and female shepard and have respect for them.

I dont care if they ever have sex. I just feel that the potential for love is there.

Knowing about someones past and loving them are different things. Truely loving someone means you would do anything for them, not just have sex once before a major mission.

Then theres your answer. Tali can love you, just not physicaly shes not attracted to womans as per the writters will. Shes willing to die covering your ass on any mission thats as much as you can ask her if you are the same gender she is. The typical sex scene is there as a point right before the important fight where you could never come back from. Where both person that love each other and are physicaly attracted then show it. As you might have figured out in the real world, this kind of affection display doesent work if you arent attracted physicaly to someone, sex is not fun or any good if you arent attracted to someone and lose most of its appeal.

Modifié par mintek, 10 février 2010 - 03:52 .

[Ziggeh]

mintek wrote...

Sorry i finished the game with both a fem shep and a male shep. There is nothing in any of her dialogue that would even point out her being in anyway attracted to Female shep in anyway. If the dialogue you got from her sounded like she was attracted to your character sexualy then i guess majority of the character you meet in the game as paragon are as well. Lets have a huge orgy on the normandy ffs.

She says shes the only person in the universe shes ever met that she would perform an intimate physical act with. I can't imagine how people read anything sexual into that.

[mintek]

ziggehunderslash wrote...

mintek wrote...

Sorry i finished the game with both a fem shep and a male shep. There is nothing in any of her dialogue that would even point out her being in anyway attracted to Female shep in anyway. If the dialogue you got from her sounded like she was attracted to your character sexualy then i guess majority of the character you meet in the game as paragon are as well. Lets have a huge orgy on the normandy ffs.

She says shes the only person in the universe shes ever met that she would perform an intimate physical act with. I can't imagine how people read anything sexual into that.

She has not said that to my female sheppard ever.

[Ziggeh]

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...
Again, I don't think bi Tali is feasible this late in the game.  IF they had implemented in ME2 they could have explained it, but waiting until ME3 is just too late to justify in my opinion.  It's not that Tali could never ever have been bi at all.  It's that I think it's way too late to make her so without making it look a little silly.  The only reason they salvaged Garrus is because they did it in THIS game.  If they waited until ME3, I would say it also would make no sense.

Isn't that mixing internal and external motivations? Tali not being "available" in one run through only really effects other run throughs outside of the narrative, ie: how you feel about them. If for example I sleep with her in one and Miranda in another, I'm not cheating on anyone.

[Ziggeh]

mintek wrote...
She has not said that to my female sheppard ever.

Haha, I see, well, I missed out legions loyalty mission, so that space station doesn't exist for anyone. Ever.

[Vaenier]

mintek wrote...

ziggehunderslash wrote...

mintek wrote...

Sorry i finished the game with both a fem shep and a male shep. There is nothing in any of her dialogue that would even point out her being in anyway attracted to Female shep in anyway. If the dialogue you got from her sounded like she was attracted to your character sexualy then i guess majority of the character you meet in the game as paragon are as well. Lets have a huge orgy on the normandy ffs.

She says shes the only person in the universe shes ever met that she would perform an intimate physical act with. I can't imagine how people read anything sexual into that.

She has not said that to my female sheppard ever.

You have to go down to the engine room and talk to her to get her to say stuff just sitting at the galaxy map doesnt work. [/joke]

[Ninja Ataris]

ziggehunderslash wrote...

mintek wrote...

Sorry i finished the game with both a fem shep and a male shep. There is nothing in any of her dialogue that would even point out her being in anyway attracted to Female shep in anyway. If the dialogue you got from her sounded like she was attracted to your character sexualy then i guess majority of the character you meet in the game as paragon are as well. Lets have a huge orgy on the normandy ffs.

She says shes the only person in the universe shes ever met that she would perform an intimate physical act with. I can't imagine how people read anything sexual into that.

So there was something intimate and physical between her aunt and mother as well then?

It's all ridiculous. Retconning and going back isn't going to help ME. Have them create a new bi-character for ME3 or something, at least that way they don't have to
A) Retcon anything
 Spend time and money on something that only one gender experiences and give them one more romance than the male players
C) Fix even more continuation for ME3

Read this again if you didn't.

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

Tali's relationship
with femshep doesn't cut off though.  Jack's does definitely, but I
think that's in character for her.  Thane's doesn't cut off either.
 You can even get him to call you "siha" without initiating a  romance
with him.  The relationship cuts off at the point when the
conversations become about sex as most of the later conversations are.
 Heck, the Garrus Li conversations are about nothing but discussing the
feasibility of sex.  He doesn't tell you about his past or divulge deep
secrets or anything.  Dudeshep knows just as much about Garrus as
femshep.  The same is true vice versa with Tali.  I was actually able
to get more out of Miranda with my femshep than I was a dudeshep as the
dudeshep conversations start venturing off into talking about sex much
earlier.  The only person that you can't really get to know without
romancing them is Jack, but again I think that's totally in character
for her.  You have to really wear down her armor before she will let
you in.  

Again, I don't think bi Tali is feasible this late in
the game.  IF they had implemented in ME2 they could have explained it,
but waiting until ME3 is just too late to justify in my opinion.  It's
not that Tali could never ever have been bi at all.  It's that I think
it's way too late to make her so without making it look a little silly.
 The only reason they salvaged Garrus is because they did it in THIS
game.  If they waited until ME3, I would say it also would make no
sense.

No retconning, please.

[mintek]

So basicly you guys found a mistake in her speech, which theres so many more in this game, some are even more major then this. Now dreaming that you can have lesbian sex with tali for some odd reason. If they wanted her to play out to be a lesbian, she would be a LI for fem shep, fact is shes not, it was not the writters plan. You dont write the story you play it.

[Vaenier]

mintek wrote...

it was not the writters plan. You dont write the story you play it.

Tali was not a planned LI for ME2. so they already retconned her character. did this ruin the game for you?

[Ziggeh]

Ninja Ataris wrote...
So there was something intimate and physical between her aunt and mother as well then?

Yes, but not sexual, which I take it you meant. It's not inherently sexual but she says herself that it's implied.

[mintek]

Vaenier wrote...

mintek wrote...

it was not the writters plan. You dont write the story you play it.

Tali was not a planned LI for ME2. so they already retconned her character. did this ruin the game for you?

I dont think you have a very good definition of writters plan. The fact are what bioware makes them when the game comes out. Shes not a lesbian according to mass effect game. She didnt magicaly appear as a LI without bioware knowledge. They knew even if they didnt tell you.

[Ziggeh]

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...
I can see what you mean there and I concede the point.  I'd still have to say that for me personally it would an insurmountable mental hurdle that would break my suspension of disbelief.

Absolutely, and for that very reason I don't think it should have been put in or added. For myself (and evidenced by this and other threads, some others) it would just have meant a more satisfying romance element, but the writers have got to look at the whole audience when deciding things like that, and overall I think they probably had the right idea.

[Arrtis]

this thread gave me a headache and now i am not exaggerating when i say i dislike it.

[Vaenier]

mintek wrote...

Vaenier wrote...

mintek wrote...

it was not the writters plan. You dont write the story you play it.

Tali was not a planned LI for ME2. so they already retconned her character. did this ruin the game for you?

I dont think you have a very good definition of writters plan. The fact are what bioware makes them when the game comes out. Shes not a lesbian according to mass effect game. She didnt magicaly appear as a LI without bioware knowledge. They knew even if they didnt tell you.

How is her being bi in ME3 any different than her becoming a LI in ME2?

[mintek]

Vaenier wrote...

mintek wrote...

Vaenier wrote...

mintek wrote...

it was not the writters plan. You dont write the story you play it.

Tali was not a planned LI for ME2. so they already retconned her character. did this ruin the game for you?

I dont think you have a very good definition of writters plan. The fact are what bioware makes them when the game comes out. Shes not a lesbian according to mass effect game. She didnt magicaly appear as a LI without bioware knowledge. They knew even if they didnt tell you.

How is her being bi in ME3 any different than her becoming a LI in ME2?

Because she doesent need to be changed now. Im pretty sure they wont change her, just like they wont magicaly make ashley a Fem shep love interest for ME3. Youll have liara back, be happy theres not even one man on man LI!

Modifié par mintek, 10 février 2010 - 04:31 .

[Vaenier]

mintek wrote...
be happy theres not even one man on man LI!

Why should I be happy that someone else is miserable? That is mean.