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[mintek]

Vaenier wrote...

mintek wrote...
be happy theres not even one man on man LI!

Why should I be happy that someone else is miserable? That is mean.

I meant it in a way as be happy that you actualy got something.

[Naltair]

I still don't think it is a good idea to go with the, this character evolves or changes into being a bisexual. It plays too much into the idea that someone that is homosexual or bisexual can be changed to being heterosexual as some would like to think. I really do think that inclination is always there even if you don't fully realize it, it is apart of who you are, maybe you have a sudden realization at some later date but the inclination is always there.

To say that someone evolves or "deepens" into being bisexual is just odd for me. I am never going to evolve or deepen into a bisexual or homosexual, it just won't happen. It is just who I am, it isn't something that is going to change and I can say that with a certainty just as I think a gay person would say, I am gay this is who I am, and I am not changing for convenience or because it's hot, this is just who I am, if that is their orientation. You don't learn to be what you are, you simply are even if you are confused on what you are.

As to sex not playing a large role, get over yourselves, sex plays a huge role in any intimate physical relationship. It isn't a bad thing it does not cheapen a relationship it is a way for two consenting adults to physically show they care for each other. That is what the Mass Effect romances show, they show two people showing affection for each other in a physical way and there is nothing bad about that.

Not really related to the issue but I wanted to address this evolution argument. I may not be correct but most gay rights activists I have seen and read about don't really promote the "choice" aspect of their sexuality. They just are that way.

Modifié par Naltair, 10 février 2010 - 05:00 .

[Lightice_av]

Because 'they' have discovered the 'gay gene' and have eradicated it through 'their' genetic engineering programmes?

There isn't one "gay gene", and it clearly hasn't gone anywhere. Look at potential female Shepard, Kelly Chambers and Hendel Mitra from the novel Ascension. Why make a foolish argument that is both offensive and doesn't work with anything we know about the game universe?

[Brahlis]

mintek wrote...
So basicly you guys found a mistake in her speech, which theres so many more in this game, some are even more major then this. Now dreaming that you can have lesbian sex with tali for some odd reason. If they wanted her to play out to be a lesbian, she would be a LI for fem shep, fact is shes not, it was not the writters plan. You dont write the story you play it.

QFT.

[TheShady]

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

But that still leaves implementation problems, namely that Tali could be in a realized relationship with dudeshep while just starting one with femshep.

There is no dudeshep and a femshep in the same universe/dimension/story...


@Naltair: If you play a femshep, maleshep does not exist. Anything anyone ever did to Tali with their malesheps did not happen to Tali if you play a femshep. There is no changing to bisexuality, no changing of Tali, there is merely the technical implementation of the possibility to pursue a relationship with Tali if you play a femshep.

Sex does play a large role in relationships, fine. But that role is not different whether you're homosexual or heterosexual. Rubbing two female body parts against each other isn't that much different than rubbing a male and a female body part together, unless your mind is utterly technical (and of course unless you want to make babies).



EDIT: I simply fail to see how one's sexual orientation completely changes a character, especially if we do not see any private life aspects of the character. Most of the anti-bi-Tali camp puts too much emphasis on the superficial "2 vulvas" part (assuming Quarians have anything like that) instead of the "connection between two people" part. Yes, sexual orientation influences the connection. But it does not overhaul and radically changes a character. Just imagine Tali's scene with a femShep. Where's the difference, other than the superficial?

Modifié par TheShady, 10 février 2010 - 06:10 .

[TheShady]

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

Read the rest of my statement.  I'm not talking about in-game story stuff.  I'm talking about real-world development stuff.  In real-world development what one person does in their game affects another person's game.  Example: In MY game Wrex lives.  In Joe Dirt's game Wrex dies.  Solution in development: Wrex is only a cameo in ME2.  

To do a Tali bi LI, they'd have to use fresh diolog that wasn't just piggybacked off the dudeshep dialog.  That would divert resources from other potential LIs like a fresh and more natural bi LI or other hetero LIs.  I don't want them to do that, and I don't think they will as Tali bi LI would only be used by a very small number of people.

Got it, sorry.

[Naltair]

TheShady wrote...

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

But that still leaves implementation problems, namely that Tali could be in a realized relationship with dudeshep while just starting one with femshep.

There is no dudeshep and a femshep in the same universe/dimension/story...


@Naltair: If you play a femshep, maleshep does not exist. Anything anyone ever did to Tali with their malesheps did not happen to Tali if you play a femshep. There is no changing to bisexuality, no changing of Tali, there is merely the technical implementation of the possibility to pursue a relationship with Tali if you play a femshep.

Sex does play a large role in relationships, fine. But that role is not different whether you're homosexual or heterosexual. Rubbing two female body parts against each other isn't that much different than rubbing a male and a female body part together, unless your mind is utterly technical (and of course unless you want to make babies).

But that isn't how the game is implemented.  Even if in ME1 you re one gender and the other gender never exists the characters don't magically change to adjust to this.  Kaidan does not magically become gay just because I am male, he stays the same orientation regardless the same character.

I agree it is feasible but that is not the story they wanted to tell.

It is as simple as that, this is a design decision and you and others want to change it to suit your whims or needs.  It has nothing to do with feasibility, it has everything to do with I want this, make this a reality because without it I feel that the game is somehow incomplete.  How is your stance any more valid than someone that wants Thane as a male or someone that wants Jack as a female.  It isn't.  It is a matter of desire and I would love for everyone to be happy but not at the expense of the story, meaning turning everyone one bi or making their sexual orientation contingent on the player's gender.

Why cant a character just be who they are and you deal with it, why MUST they change it for you?

On top of that why do we need yet another female + female romance?

Modifié par Naltair, 10 février 2010 - 06:09 .

[TheShady]

Naltair wrote...

Why cant a character just be who they are and you deal with it, why MUST they change it for you?

I have long since departed from the idea of changing Mass Effect 2. Heck, I don't even think about Mass Effect 3 in that regard. I wouldn't even seriously pursue the Tali romance (I got bored with the game half way through my second playthrough...). But Bioware is going to create other games... And, imo, Tali is one of the best examples of how they screwed up the romances and relationships with the squadmates in ME2 (no, not because you can't woohoo her as a femshep...).
But you can't blame someone for saying what they want, hoping and wishing and asking for it. Of course you can't blame anyone saying they don't want this, either. That is the entire point of this thread...

[Naltair]

TheShady wrote...

Naltair wrote...

Why cant a character just be who they are and you deal with it, why MUST they change it for you?

I have long since departed from the idea of changing Mass Effect 2. Heck, I don't even think about Mass Effect 3 in that regard. I wouldn't even seriously pursue the Tali romance (I got bored with the game half way through my second playthrough...). But Bioware is going to create other games... And, imo, Tali is one of the best examples of how they screwed up the romances and relationships with the squadmates in ME2 (no, not because you can't woohoo her as a femshep...).
But you can't blame someone for saying what they want, hoping and wishing and asking for it. Of course you can't blame anyone saying they don't want this, either. That is the entire point of this thread...

Oh I agree people should voice their wants and desires, it's helpful.

I didn't mean they shouldn't but in the larger scheme of things I just fear game design for these kinds of games where everything becomes player centric.  Where choices are meaningless because everything you ever wanted is given to you.  There is no drama or tension then, there is no reason to go back and explore the game as a different gender or class or background or what have you.

Sometimes it just isn't meant to be and I like that consistency.  I like knowing that if I am female I can't romance Morrigan but I can as a male.  It keeps her character consistent, even if it means that even if I wanted to romance her as the wrong gender I can't.  Same with this game, it may not make you the individual happy but it gives us a way to describe her character that is consistent.

My main critique is what yet another female + female romance brings to the table.

[TheShady]

Naltair wrote...

TheShady wrote...

Naltair wrote...

Why cant a character just be who they are and you deal with it, why MUST they change it for you?

I have long since departed from the idea of changing Mass Effect 2. Heck, I don't even think about Mass Effect 3 in that regard. I wouldn't even seriously pursue the Tali romance (I got bored with the game half way through my second playthrough...). But Bioware is going to create other games... And, imo, Tali is one of the best examples of how they screwed up the romances and relationships with the squadmates in ME2 (no, not because you can't woohoo her as a femshep...).
But you can't blame someone for saying what they want, hoping and wishing and asking for it. Of course you can't blame anyone saying they don't want this, either. That is the entire point of this thread...

Oh I agree people should voice their wants and desires, it's helpful.

I didn't mean they shouldn't but in the larger scheme of things I just fear game design for these kinds of games where everything becomes player centric.  Where choices are meaningless because everything you ever wanted is given to you.  There is no drama or tension then, there is no reason to go back and explore the game as a different gender or class or background or what have you.

Sometimes it just isn't meant to be and I like that consistency.  I like knowing that if I am female I can't romance Morrigan but I can as a male.  It keeps her character consistent, even if it means that even if I wanted to romance her as the wrong gender I can't.  Same with this game, it may not make you the individual happy but it gives us a way to describe her character that is consistent.

My main critique is what yet another female + female romance brings to the table.

I agree. Consistency even across playthroughs (and therefore somewhat different stories) is important, simply to be able to feel immersed in a character. 
It's a matter of balance, though. I really like the idea of influencing and even changing my teammates (not changing their sexuality...) to some degree. It was very well done in KoTOR 2.
When it comes to a character's sexuality, it depends on the relationship you are able to build with that character. I agree that it would not work with Tali as it is now. It would hardly work with any ME-character. But it worked well in KoTOR 2 with Visas Marr (it was not at all about the physical there, Visas Marr was only capable to see through the force) and I don't see why it would not work in future Bioware games, probably excluding ME3.

If they add an f/f relationship to ME2 through DLC, they have to add an m/m relationship as well. Same goes for ME3. If they include no such relationship, that is something I have to deal with, but I would like to see them nevertheless.

[RiverRat]

Okay... wait what? After listening to the unimplemented audio files, and the fact Tali said something along the lines that she'd be honored to 'link suits" with my FemShep...



I find it entirely plausible that Tali was intended to be romanced by either gendered Shep, but was cut due to time constraints. Just as some of the additional "light" relationships with Normandy crew members were cut, such as the Scottish engineer Ken was originally supposed to be an option for FemShep but got cut for time. (The bit about engineer was mentioned by a dev on this forum.)



I'm... not sure this really contributes anything to the conversation. But we don't know that BioWare intended for Tali to only be into MaleShep originally.

[Policyofnoreturn]

Naltair wrote...
My main critique is what yet another female + female romance brings to the table.

What do you mean "yet another female + female romance"? Femsheps had Liara in ME1 that's all. Kelly is not a romance - it's a weird "maintenance" scene where she *spoiler* comes up to your cabin and sits on a couch and you press 3 buttons to either: sit her on your lap, watch her do a dodgy dance, lie fully clothed on the bed and look in the distance in utter silence. No conversation, nothing.

I understand that male/male romance is non-existent in both ME1 and 2 but, however frustrating, ME2 was no better for femshep same-sex romance.

[Collider]

RiverRat wrote...

Okay... wait what? After listening to the unimplemented audio files, and the fact Tali said something along the lines that she'd be honored to 'link suits" with my FemShep...

I find it entirely plausible that Tali was intended to be romanced by either gendered Shep, but was cut due to time constraints. Just as some of the additional "light" relationships with Normandy crew members were cut, such as the Scottish engineer Ken was originally supposed to be an option for FemShep but got cut for time. (The bit about engineer was mentioned by a dev on this forum.)

I'm... not sure this really contributes anything to the conversation. But we don't know that BioWare intended for Tali to only be into MaleShep originally.

If you think linking suits is necessarily sexual, then apparently there was some lesbian sex0rz between Tali's aunt and Tali's mother. Hawt.

Bioware may have considered Tali to be bisexual, but she's clearly not if it isn't in the game.

[RiverRat]

Collider wrote...

RiverRat wrote...

Okay... wait what? After listening to the unimplemented audio files, and the fact Tali said something along the lines that she'd be honored to 'link suits" with my FemShep...

I find it entirely plausible that Tali was intended to be romanced by either gendered Shep, but was cut due to time constraints. Just as some of the additional "light" relationships with Normandy crew members were cut, such as the Scottish engineer Ken was originally supposed to be an option for FemShep but got cut for time. (The bit about engineer was mentioned by a dev on this forum.)

I'm... not sure this really contributes anything to the conversation. But we don't know that BioWare intended for Tali to only be into MaleShep originally.

If you think linking suits is necessarily sexual, then apparently there was some lesbian sex0rz between Tali's aunt and Tali's mother. Hawt.

Bioware may have considered Tali to be bisexual, but she's clearly not if it isn't in the game.

I'm was fairly sure they weren't talking about linking suits in that instance. Tali's aunt and Tali's mother shared the same environmental clean room together, without suits, during Tali's birth, which was got her aunt sick for some time.

I'll listen again once I get up to the Floatilla... given... playing until 4am sometimes leaves me with slightly different impressions of things.

[Kolaris8472]

This thread isn't dead yet...? Lovely. 

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...
To do a Tali bi LI, they'd have to use fresh diolog that wasn't just piggybacked off the dudeshep dialog.  That would divert resources from other potential LIs like a fresh and more natural bi LI or other hetero LIs.  I don't want them to do that, and I don't think they will as Tali bi LI would only be used by a very small number of people.

But piggybacking in an already hugely gender-neutral romance would be better than having no resolution/unique dialog whatsoever, no? Because that's the looming option. 

I'm not really sure what's making you say they'd have to do unique dialog when that's largely extinct in ME2. 

[Captain Jazz]

Lightice_av wrote...

Because 'they' have discovered the 'gay gene' and have eradicated it through 'their' genetic engineering programmes?

There
isn't one "gay gene", and it clearly hasn't gone anywhere. Look at
potential female Shepard, Kelly Chambers and Hendel Mitra from the
novel Ascension. Why make a foolish argument that is both offensive and doesn't work with anything we know about the game universe?

I know that, but the guy I was responding to asserted that it makes more sense "in someways(sic) that [he] will not discuss," so I was trying to figure out what those ways were... starting with the truefact that gay people simply don't exist in the military (no, really, 7 out of 5 people agree!)
Unfortunately his only input into that discussion was that it made sense "in someways(sic) that [he] will not discuss," so I went on to make another guess at his reasoning... 'cuz I sure as hell can't see any reasonable reasoning behind it.

Also, note use of scary quotes, srsly. When someone talks of the 'gay gene,' rather than the gay gene, it usually means they are lawling or raising an eyebrow as they write it.

Modifié par Captain Jazz, 12 février 2010 - 12:51 .

[Natureguy85]

The fact that they shouldn't have made Tali interested in jerk Shepard doesn't mean they should make her bi. There is no indication Tali is bi and they shouldn't change characters like they did with Anders in DA. In DA: Awakening he was always talking about women. In DA 2, he's gay if you play a male Hawk.

Compare that to making Zevran, Liliana, and Isabela bi. Those characters had a "free love" and "do what feels good" lifestyle, so it fell in line with their characters. It wasn't contrived to make a statement, be shocking, or satisfy some group.