617 réponses à ce sujet

[Soldier989]

Thargorichiban wrote...

Mikazukinoyaiba2 wrote...

Kolaris8472 wrote...
I suppose so, but I tried not to let this be my reasoning. The point was that if she wants everyone else to look at her for her personality but won't do the same for others, it makes her character shallow and/or inconsistent. 

Being straight makes someone shallow/inconsistent? You can want people to like you for who you are without having to want sex with them.

QFT. Not once in the series has Tali ever expressed any romantic feelings towards the same sex of any species. Why should Bioware then make her bi/gay all of a sudden? Doing that would seem to be a shallow decision aimed at those fans that write "interesting" fanfics.

Soldier989 wrote...


Skip to 8:02 and listen, most of the stuff from 8:02 - 9:25 isn't ingame.

Bioware cut Tali/FemaleShepard romance from ME2, or something close to it.

Tali sound like she's very interested in FemShepard.

Modifié par Soldier989, 09 février 2010 - 04:30 .

[Kolaris8472]

T1l wrote...

Kolaris8472 wrote...

Brahlis wrote...
stuff

I remember when you at least tried to post excerpts and small arguments, but I guess that didn't work out too well...

Again, I get that people don't want this, I'm just interested in knowing why, especially in terms of the characters themselves. 

Honestly, I really don't have a problem with them putting in homosexual or bi-sexual content. It would effect their demographic, I think (in that despite the game being an M rating their target audience is probably PG), but more importantly I just don't want them to massacre established characters. It's one of the reasons why I don't particularly want to see a gay/bi relationship full-stop. Let alone other characters, Shepard particularly at this point after two games is almost categorically straight (aside the Asari, if you want to count that as a female/female relationship, which the developers don't).

For Bioware to throw it in, in act three, would feel really out of place. It'd be like Luke Skywalker turning around when he's dancing with the Ewoks and giving Han Solo a slap on the arse - to me, it'd just be out of place.

EDIT: What I'm trying to say is that Tali (and Shepard) are established characters at this point. No sense in changing them on a whim so you can get your jollies.

I don't want "jollies", I didn't even have a physical relationship with Tali because I thought it was out of character to begin with. What I WANT is the consistent characters, and I felt Tali was less that consistent in ME2. Did you read my initial post (I don't blame you if you didn't)?

Seriously, if this was just me clamoring for a f/f relationship I'd just ask for Kisumi or whatever her name is to be one. This was specifically about why I felt the characters were not handled consistently. 

[-Area51-Silent]

The best reason why she shouldn't be romanceable by Femshep? considering (based on what I've seen on the forums so far) Tali and Garrus seam to be THE MOST popular characters to romance in the game. I suppose in some form this makes sense considering they are the only teammates that are consistant in ME1 and ME2.



Therefore Bioware looked at this situation and decided that if you play through as a maleshep you get the ability to romance Tali, and if you play through as a Femshep you get the ability to romance Garrus. I believe it is not only to play out the personalities they had intended for the characters but to keep a balance and have high replay value for those that would want to experience both romances.

[Kolaris8472]

Oh well. I certainly can't blame anyone for not wanting to read the wall'o'text, but I pointed out very clearly why I did not feel this was changing an established character.

[Collider]

Bioware should do it to satisfy horny male players? F that. Can't you just accept that Tali is heterosexual? yes, female shepard did all of those things - saved her twice, etc. But female shepard isn't a man. Despite Tali being a suit, she can still be attracted to the masculinity in a male Shepard. You know, it helps if the majority of a species are heterosexual by nature. Tali is just another example. So maybe you should get over it and play as male shepard.

[-Area51-Silent]

It's not so much a reasoning on changing an established character as to add to replay value, and clearly divide up the two considerably most popular romance interests between the male and female shepards.

[Brahlis]

But Collider! They want to get some hot alien lezbo action with their uber hot femShep, who they play with because they don't like to look at a guy's ass during the game. I mean, everyone knows RPG's are actually about looking at the ass of your character, as well as being a hot woman and getting it on with hot aliens. That's definitely what RPG's are about. -cough-

[Wittand25]

T1l wrote...

Kolaris8472 wrote...

Brahlis wrote...
stuff

I remember when you at least tried to post excerpts and small arguments, but I guess that didn't work out too well...

Again, I get that people don't want this, I'm just interested in knowing why, especially in terms of the characters themselves. 

Honestly, I really don't have a problem with them putting in homosexual or bi-sexual content. It would effect their demographic, I think (in that despite the game being an M rating their target audience is probably PG), but more importantly I just don't want them to massacre established characters. It's one of the reasons why I don't particularly want to see a gay/bi relationship full-stop. Let alone other characters, Shepard particularly at this point after two games is almost categorically straight (aside the Asari, if you want to count that as a female/female relationship, which the developers don't).

For Bioware to throw it in, in act three, would feel really out of place. It'd be like Luke Skywalker turning around when he's dancing with the Ewoks and giving Han Solo a slap on the arse - to me, it'd just be out of place.

EDIT: What I'm trying to say is that Tali (and Shepard) are established characters at this point. No sense in changing them on a whim so you can get your jollies.

 
There are plenty of Shepards who did not persue a relationship in ME1 or ME2, so his/her sexuality is not established and even if Shephard persued a romance he could be still bisexual. Unles I recall wrong he/she never identifies as straight (like saying "I only like women " or similar ). Simply saying he/she is straight because their was no same-sex-romance till this point is like saying all prison inmate, students of single-sex-shools and similar are gay because they never had a straight workplace romance.

[Kolaris8472]

Collider wrote...

Bioware should do it to satisfy horny male players? F that. Can't you just accept that Tali is heterosexual? yes, female shepard did all of those things - saved her twice, etc. But female shepard isn't a man. Despite Tali being a suit, she can still be attracted to the masculinity in a male Shepard. You know, it helps if the majority of a species are heterosexual by nature. Tali is just another example. So maybe you should get over it and play as male shepard.

I'm certainly not a horny male player. That was never my reasoning. My reasoning was Tali expects people to judge her on a personality level while apparently not doing that for others (jumping in the pants of a xenopobic renegade), which I felt was an inconsistency. 

I did play a Male Shephard. A Renegade one. Which is why this pissed me off. Tali was more interested in my no-nonsense **** xenophobe than she was for my Paragon Femshep who always looked out for her. 

[T1l]

Kolaris8472 wrote...

I don't want "jollies", I didn't even have a physical relationship with Tali because I thought it was out of character to begin with. What I WANT is the consistent characters, and I felt Tali was less that consistent in ME2. Did you read my initial post (I don't blame you if you didn't)?

Seriously, if this was just me clamoring for a f/f relationship I'd just ask for Kisumi or whatever her name is to be one. This was specifically about why I felt the characters were not handled consistently. 

Yeah, I did read your original post (although, admittedly it hurt me a little bit - no spacing really made me struggle). I agree with you that the characters change in Mass Effect from the first to the second game, but what you're asking for is a fundamental change in the character of not only Shepard, but of the established crew of the Normandy. I understand a persons want for that demographic to be catered to, I do, and like I said if it had been something considered from day one I wouldn't have a problem with it - but retconning, or changing significantly, a character just to appeal to a minority isn't something I am, personally, fond of.

You don't just wake up one morning gay.

Besides, this really is something that has been answered by Ray. He's pretty candid in a very politically correct way in that IGN article, if you've read it.

[CRISIS1717]

I actually read all of your wall of text TC...

The heart of the matter is that the relationship was not included in ME2. Bioware actually recorded the f/f Tali romance for femSheps but did not include it in the finished game, now whether this was a character decision or a case of not enough time to implement the VA work is irrelevent as they've pretty much made the canon that Tali is straight, think about it, would Bioware add romance DLC? no, would they put in all the previous relationships to choose in case you missed them in ME1/ME2 for ME3? no.

Its unfortunate but the best time for a f/f Talimance has passed.

[Thargorichiban]

Kolaris8472 wrote...

Collider wrote...

Bioware should do it to satisfy horny male players? F that. Can't you just accept that Tali is heterosexual? yes, female shepard did all of those things - saved her twice, etc. But female shepard isn't a man. Despite Tali being a suit, she can still be attracted to the masculinity in a male Shepard. You know, it helps if the majority of a species are heterosexual by nature. Tali is just another example. So maybe you should get over it and play as male shepard.

I'm certainly not a horny male player. That was never my reasoning. My reasoning was Tali expects people to judge her on a personality level while apparently not doing that for others (jumping in the pants of a xenopobic renegade), which I felt was an inconsistency. 

I did play a Male Shephard. A Renegade one. Which is why this pissed me off. Tali was more interested in my no-nonsense **** xenophobe than she was for my Paragon Femshep who always looked out for her. 

Hey, what can you say? Some women just dig the bad boys even if it's soo bad for them

*hands Tali a tissue for her mucus*

[TheShady]

1.) Female Shepards get plenty of possibilities to establish their homosexuality: Consort, Liara, Kelly, Strippers
2.) Romanes in ME should not be about the physical at all (one of the major problems with all romances in ME2 is that they all feel very superficial). Tali adores both maleSheps and femSheps. Very much so even. In fact I was almost surprised that my femShep couldn't at least make a move...
3.) The canon is different if you play a maleShep or a femShep. So Tali does not "swing both ways". She'd just be into women if you're a femShep and into men if you're a maleShep. Same can apply to basically all characters.
4.) What the hell is wrong with characters being bisexual? Does it really disturb you that much? Are you jealous of femSheps?
5.) Let's not talk about "horny males". MaleSheps get "the perfect woman" Miranda and someone who wears only tatoos from the waist upwards... Come on...

Modifié par TheShady, 09 février 2010 - 04:45 .

[Kolaris8472]

T1l wrote...

Kolaris8472 wrote...

I don't want "jollies", I didn't even have a physical relationship with Tali because I thought it was out of character to begin with. What I WANT is the consistent characters, and I felt Tali was less that consistent in ME2. Did you read my initial post (I don't blame you if you didn't)?

Seriously, if this was just me clamoring for a f/f relationship I'd just ask for Kisumi or whatever her name is to be one. This was specifically about why I felt the characters were not handled consistently. 

Yeah, I did read your original post (although, admittedly it hurt me a little bit - no spacing really made me struggle). I agree with you that the characters change in Mass Effect from the first to the second game, but what you're asking for is a fundamental change in the character of not only Shepard, but of the established crew of the Normandy. I understand a persons want for that demographic to be catered to, I do, and like I said if it had been something considered from day one I wouldn't have a problem with it - but retconning, or changing significantly, a character just to appeal to a minority isn't something I am, personally, fond of.

Wait...so you read it? I'm strictly against changing a character to appeal to a minority. Unless, as in this case, the minority is people looking for consistent characters. 

You don't just wake up one morning gay.

Nope, but you don't wake up one day and toss out your code of ethics either. You can play as a Renegade Shephard doing everything Tali hates, but she'll still be more interested in you. 

Besides, this really is something that has been answered by Ray. He's pretty candid in a very politically correct way in that IGN article, if you've read it.

I read it. He was specifically talking about Male Shephards as far as I can tell, as he completely failed to address the fact that Female Shephards can have 3 f/f relationships (from the human Shephard's point of view) and never get it on with a guy the whole game. 

[Brahlis]

Please list all three of the f/f relationships.

[Kolaris8472]

Brahlis wrote...

Please list all three of the f/f relationships.

Sorry, I meant "encounters", as I said in the OP. Should really just be breaking off quotes from that.

Consort, Liara, Kelley. 

Whether or not you think the Asari consider themselves female is irrelevant. To a Female Shephard, its incredibly obvious what she's going for. 

[TheShady]

Brahlis wrote...

Please list all three of the f/f relationships.

Consort, Liara, Kelly, (watching (and tipping) dancers)

And please don't say "but asari don't have a gender!"...

[adriano_c]

Kolaris8472 wrote...

My reasoning was Tali expects people to judge her on a personality level while apparently not doing that for others (jumping in the pants of a xenopobic renegade), which I felt was an inconsistency. 

Can you clarify this for me?

From what I understand, you're suggesting that someone who has a desire to be judged not solely on face value, but rather by their personality, has to be bisexual, else they are a hypocrite (or as you say, "inconsistent")?

Since when did having an accepting character (or enjoying acceptance) impact upon sexual inclination?

[T1l]

Kolaris8472 wrote...

Nope, but you don't wake up one day and toss out your code of ethics either. You can play as a Renegade Shephard doing everything Tali hates, but she'll still be more interested in you.

Yes, but the reason for this - and it may come as a shock - but the reason for this is because Tali isn't gay; or at least she isn't in Mass Effect 1 or 2. If you think that will change in Mass Effect 3, well, that's fine - but again I direct you to Rays' IGN article in which the interviewer specifically asks about " the chance for a lesbian relationship".

[WilliamShatner]

Kolaris8472 wrote...

Brahlis wrote...

Please list all three of the f/f relationships.

Sorry, I meant "encounters", as I said in the OP. Should really just be breaking off quotes from that.

Consort, Liara, Kelley. 

Whether or not you think the Asari consider themselves female is irrelevant. To a Female Shephard, its incredibly obvious what she's going for. 

Also Samara/Morinth.

And you make very excellent points as to why not having Tali as a F/F romance is against her character.  And in ME2 Tali and female Shepard do become very close, they just can't express their true feelings.

[T1l]

TheShady wrote...

Brahlis wrote...

Please list all three of the f/f relationships.

Consort, Liara, Kelly, (watching (and tipping) dancers)

And please don't say "but asari don't have a gender!"...

To be fair, there is a developer quote specifically stating that they do not consider Asari a lesbian relationship.

If you want to argue with the developers, that's cool, and I'm not going to get in to that discussion. That's how the people who make the game see it - which is good enough for me. Nothing I can do to change that.

[Brahlis]

TheShady wrote...

Brahlis wrote...

Please list all three of the f/f relationships.

Consort, Liara, Kelly, (watching (and tipping) dancers)

And please don't say "but asari don't have a gender!"...

Asari don't have a gender.

Kidding. Mostly. I'll chalk that up as a wash. The Kelly thing is garbage because all she does is dance for you. I've seen worse at parties between straight women.

And IMO, you're really being unreasonable including the Asari ... for the pure fact that since they're one gender only then it has to be "homosexual" for one gender to be with them. It just happens to be lesbian. And for the record the devs have stated they don't consider the Asari and female enoucnters to be lesbian.

But what does any of that have to do with the OP? I fail to see how those three female encounters have anything to do with Tali. If anything they need to add gay content for male Shepard. What does that have to do with making Tali available for femShep?

Modifié par Brahlis, 09 février 2010 - 04:50 .

[Kolaris8472]

adriano_c wrote...

Kolaris8472 wrote...

My reasoning was Tali expects people to judge her on a personality level while apparently not doing that for others (jumping in the pants of a xenopobic renegade), which I felt was an inconsistency. 

Can you clarify this for me?

From what I understand, you're suggesting that someone who has a desire to be judged not solely on face value, but rather by their personality, has to be bisexual, else they are a hypocrite (or as you say, "inconsistent")?

Since when did having an accepting character (or enjoying acceptance) impact upon sexual inclination?

This was one of the "expected comments" from the 3rd post. 

No I’m not. I’m saying that any relationship they develop will likely be based primarily on non-physical attraction, as you might have expected in an extra-species relationship or in Tali’s case specifically. But for Tali her attraction is apparently not on an emotional/psychological/any level other than physical because she wishes to get intimate with a Shephard whether he is, again, an ass or an angel. In that case she seems to “swing both ways”, which is inconsistent with how she wishes other people to treat her.

As for having an impact upon sexual inclination, it doesn't, but it leads into the "lesser-evil" argument. The relationship is not strictly out of the blue, so it would be better to have it than not have it, as the way it stands Femsheps get strictly less dialog with Tali and will have even less of it in ME3. 

[TheShady]

T1l wrote...

Kolaris8472 wrote...

Nope, but you don't wake up one day and toss out your code of ethics either. You can play as a Renegade Shephard doing everything Tali hates, but she'll still be more interested in you.

Yes, but the reason for this - and it may come as a shock - but the reason for this is because Tali isn't gay; or at least she isn't in Mass Effect 1 or 2. If you think that will change in Mass Effect 3, well, that's fine - but again I direct you to Rays' IGN article in which the interviewer specifically asks about " the chance for a lesbian relationship".

Nothing ever says that Tali is straight. The maleShep romance says that, but if you play a femShep, all that happens in a maleShep playthrough/story just doesn't exist.

[T1l]

TheShady wrote...

Nothing ever says that Tali is straight. The maleShep romance says that, but if you play a femShep, all that happens in a maleShep playthrough/story just doesn't exist.

So, you're saying the lack of proof to the contrary is evidence that she is, in fact, gay?

Well, it was a nice thread but I'm done. Good night.