617 réponses à ce sujet

[TheShady]

Brahlis wrote...

But what does any of that have to do with the OP? I fail to see how those three female encounters have anything to do with Tali. If anything they need to add gay content for male Shepard. What does that have to do with making Tali available for femShep?

You asked, didn't you?



Whether or not relations with an asari can be considered relations with a female is a matter of ... I dunno... philosophy. The question would be what homosexuality actually is (physical vs. emotional).

[TheShady]

T1l wrote...

TheShady wrote...

Nothing ever says that Tali is straight. The maleShep romance says that, but if you play a femShep, all that happens in a maleShep playthrough/story just doesn't exist.

So, you're saying the lack of proof to the contrary is evidence that she is, in fact, gay?

Well, it was a nice thread but I'm done. Good night.

... No... It's not proof that she's straight. Not being straight doesn't mean you're gay either...

[Kolaris8472]

Brahlis wrote...

TheShady wrote...

Brahlis wrote...

Please list all three of the f/f relationships.

Consort, Liara, Kelly, (watching (and tipping) dancers)

And please don't say "but asari don't have a gender!"...

Asari don't have a gender.

Kidding. Mostly. I'll chalk that up as a wash. The Kelly thing is garbage because all she does is dance for you. I've seen worse at parties between straight women.

And IMO, you're really being unreasonable including the Asari ... for the pure fact that since they're one gender only then it has to be "homosexual" for one gender to be with them. It just happens to be lesbian. And for the record the devs have stated they don't consider the Asari and female enoucnters to be lesbian.

But what does any of that have to do with the OP? I fail to see how those three female encounters have anything to do with Tali. If anything they need to add gay content for male Shepard. What does that have to do with making Tali available for femShep?

You've seen worse at parties. This was in private. Shephard wasn't doing it for attention, she was doing it because she was interested. 

An Asari/Human Female is not "homosexual" from the Asari's perspective, but it is from the human female's perspective. 

It has nothing to do with making Tali a female romance. It has to do with arguing against the argument that the character of Shephard (if female) is not gay. Which would be an important point in standing against a Tali/Femshep line of reasoning. 

[Brahlis]

TheShady wrote...
You asked, didn't you?

I asked him to clarify the romances, yes. But he still used it in an earlier post (unless I misread it) to defend Tali being with femShep. I was asking why that mattered, since it's still (if you consider those f/f relationships) horribly skewed for the female player.

[Naltair]

Kolaris8472 wrote...
I'm certainly not a horny male player. That was never my reasoning. My reasoning was Tali expects people to judge her on a personality level while apparently not doing that for others (jumping in the pants of a xenopobic renegade), which I felt was an inconsistency. 

I did play a Male Shephard. A Renegade one. Which is why this pissed me off. Tali was more interested in my no-nonsense **** xenophobe than she was for my Paragon Femshep who always looked out for her. 

Fallacy.

The same could be said for any Shepard, the game just isn't advanced enough to identify personality as a valid flag for romance.  You could be a xenophobe jerk in ME1 and still have Liara wanting to get into your pants.  The only real jerk flag is revealing the evidence to the Admiralty board and not getting her loyalty, because I believe you require loyalty for a romance.

My Shepard is a male and a paragon and tries to work with all races, he cares about Tali about as much as your female Shepard the only difference is that Tali decides that she wants a male partner.  There is nothing wrong with that.  As for the insistence on the whole taken for my personality thing, that is what women say to men all the time.  Just because she says she wants you to see who she is on the inside does not mean she also must be bisexual.  It just means that she wants her partner or partner to be to accept who she is emotionally.

Emotions she wants to share with a man.

I really cannot support this.  It adds nothing new to the table.

Now if you wanted to argue for the case of a male + male Shepard relationship I would be against just changing a male character but I would be all for trying to see this happen in some capacity for parity.

Until then this is just not worth the time.

Modifié par Naltair, 09 février 2010 - 05:00 .

[CRISIS1717]

You can't handle the truth TC. The chances of them adding it in now is 0.

[Teredan]

i think i read and interview where it is explained why there are no homosexual relationship option for shephard, because your playing in mass effect the character shephard an such an realtionship would be out of character for shephard.



before someone comes with the liara asari arguement, it is an exception that makes sense since the race itself isn't female they just look like they are

[T1l]

TheShady wrote...

... No... It's not proof that she's straight. Not being straight doesn't mean you're gay either...

Well, now you're entering the realm of semantics and belief systems. You believe that in it not being clearly stated that she is completely heterosexual, that it is evidence for her being bi-sexual or homosexual/lesbian; where as I believe that her current implementation of in-game romances directly reflect her sexual orientation.

Agree to disagree, then.

Modifié par T1l, 09 février 2010 - 04:59 .

[Brahlis]

Kolaris8472 wrote...
It has nothing to do with making Tali a female romance. It has to do with arguing against the argument that the character of Shephard (if female) is not gay. Which would be an important point in standing against a Tali/Femshep line of reasoning. 

I have zero problem with Shepard being gay - male or female. What I do have a problem with is changing established characters to suit that. That's all.

[Naltair]

TheShady wrote...

Nothing ever says that Tali is straight. The maleShep romance says that, but if you play a femShep, all that happens in a maleShep playthrough/story just doesn't exist.

If she does not come onto female Shepard, and if Kelly Chambers does not mention it, then she is either not wanting a physical relationship with female Shepard or straight.

Just as I accept that Garrus is straight.  It really is that simple.

Modifié par Naltair, 09 février 2010 - 04:58 .

[WilliamShatner]

T1l wrote...

TheShady wrote...

Nothing ever says that Tali is straight. The maleShep romance says that, but if you play a femShep, all that happens in a maleShep playthrough/story just doesn't exist.

So, you're saying the lack of proof to the contrary is evidence that she is, in fact, gay?

Well, it was a nice thread but I'm done. Good night.

Actually there's a quite a lot of evidence in the game that Tali has feelings for female Shepard.  For example, she's willing to be intimate with her is she was a quarian and not on a suicide mission and she also blushes when you reply to one of the more friendly dialogs.

[Kolaris8472]

Naltair wrote...

Kolaris8472 wrote...
I'm certainly not a horny male player. That was never my reasoning. My reasoning was Tali expects people to judge her on a personality level while apparently not doing that for others (jumping in the pants of a xenopobic renegade), which I felt was an inconsistency. 

I did play a Male Shephard. A Renegade one. Which is why this pissed me off. Tali was more interested in my no-nonsense **** xenophobe than she was for my Paragon Femshep who always looked out for her. 

Fallacy.

The same could be said for any Shepard, the game just isn't advanced enough to identify personality as a valid flag for romance.  You could be a xenophobe jerk in ME1 and still have Liara wanting to get into your pants.  The only real jerk flag is revealing the evidence to the Admiralty board and not getting her loyalty, because I believe you require loyalty for a romance.

My Shepard is a male and a paragon and tries to work with all races, he cares about Tali about as much as your female Shepard the only difference is that Tali decides that she wants a male partner.  There is nothing wrong with that.  As for the insistence on the whole taken for my personality thing, that is what women say to men all the time.  Just because a says she wants you to see who she is on the inside does not mean she also must be bisexual.  it just means that she wants her partner or partner to be to accept who she is emotionally.

Emotions she wants to share with a man.

I really cannot support this.  It adds nothing new to the table.

Now if you wanted to argue for the case of a male + male Shepard relationship I would be against just changing a male character but I would be all for trying to see this happen in some capacity for parity.

Until then this is just not worth the time.

How can you be arguing from an in-game and out-of-game perspective at the same time? Is it the lack of flags? Or is it Tali's character?

The fact is Tali is apparently interested in "renegades" and all that may go with it. If she isn't looking at someone's personality, as she wants them to do for her, she's looking at their physical attractiveness, which simply does not make any sense to me given what we know of her. 

This is getting tiring. I just quoted pretty much from one of the expected responses. No, being handicapped/disabled or otherwise wanting people to judge you for your personality does not mean you are bisexual. It means you want people to (wow, strangely) judge you for your personality. Tali ends up being inconsistent. 

[TheShady]

T1l wrote...

TheShady wrote...

... No... It's not proof that she's straight. Not being straight doesn't mean you're gay either...

Well, now you're entering the realm of semantics and belief systems. You believe that in it not being clearly stated that she is completely heterosexual, that is evidence for her being bi-sexual or homosexual/lesbian; where as I believe that her current implementation of in-game romances directly reflect her sexual orientation.

Agree to disagree, then.

All I meant was that I don't see how we can not have two version of any character depending on your Shepard's gender. The femShep-story and the maleShep-story are two seperate stories, imo.

[Naltair]

How is that inconsistent?



And yes I will argue the out of game and in-game flags, because they both matter.



Let me put it this way how is that more inconsistent than Liara or Miranada or Thane or Garrus?



You put way too much stock into this personality thing.

[addiction21]

T1l wrote...

TheShady wrote...

... No... It's not proof that she's straight. Not being straight doesn't mean you're gay either...

Well, now you're entering the realm of semantics and belief systems. You believe that in it not being clearly stated that she is completely heterosexual, that it is evidence for her being bi-sexual or homosexual/lesbian; where as I believe that her current implementation of in-game romances directly reflect her sexual orientation.

Agree to disagree, then.

I would think Tali being romancable by a male shep and not a female shep would be clear cut enough...  just my 2 waffles.

[Naltair]

I want people to judge me for my personality too, that does not mean, surprise surprise, I will drop my pants and cuddle up on some guy just because he finds my personality sexy. Does that make me inconsistent?

[Kolaris8472]

Brahlis wrote...

Kolaris8472 wrote...
It has nothing to do with making Tali a female romance. It has to do with arguing against the argument that the character of Shephard (if female) is not gay. Which would be an important point in standing against a Tali/Femshep line of reasoning. 

I have zero problem with Shepard being gay - male or female. What I do have a problem with is changing established characters to suit that. That's all.

So then you're fine with Tali being attracted to renegades who berate her just because they're male and not attracted to females even if they're her best friend in the world, even though she wants everyone to look at her for her personality?

Hey, I'm fine if you're fine with that. I'd just rather not entertain that level of inconsistency in a character. 

[Naltair]

addiction21 wrote...

I would think Tali being romancable by a male shep and not a female shep would be clear cut enough...  just my 2 waffles.

Internet rule: It's not clear cut if it isn't what you want.

[SparksX]

I support your statements OP.



I think Tali should turn down renegades and get interested in paragon's regardless of gender, as that would better suit her character imo

[Kolaris8472]

Naltair wrote...

I want people to judge me for my personality too, that does not mean, surprise surprise, I will drop my pants and cuddle up on some guy just because he finds my personality sexy. Does that make me inconsistent?

It does if you've also been involved with mass-murdering females who didn't give you the time of day in the past, and have proven that you don't find either of those qualities attractive. 

[Wittand25]

addiction21 wrote...

T1l wrote...

TheShady wrote...

... No... It's not proof that she's straight. Not being straight doesn't mean you're gay either...

Well, now you're entering the realm of semantics and belief systems. You believe that in it not being clearly stated that she is completely heterosexual, that it is evidence for her being bi-sexual or homosexual/lesbian; where as I believe that her current implementation of in-game romances directly reflect her sexual orientation.

Agree to disagree, then.

I would think Tali being romancable by a male shep and not a female shep would be clear cut enough...  just my 2 waffles.

But than again Bioware changed Juhani from bisexual to lesbian in Kotor so there is a precedent for a patch that changes the romantic availbility of npcs.

[Naltair]

Kolaris8472 wrote...

So then you're fine with Tali being attracted to renegades who berate her just because they're male and not attracted to females even if they're her best friend in the world, even though she wants everyone to look at her for her personality?

Hey, I'm fine if you're fine with that. I'd just rather not entertain that level of inconsistency in a character. 

You know you can do the same thing as female right, you can be a total jerk to Tali as a female and if you got your way she would still want to bump uglies.

I try to say this but the game just isn't advanced enough to account for these things.  Or they didn't script the romances to be that discriminating.

[adriano_c]

Kolaris8472 wrote...

No I’m not. I’m saying that any relationship they develop will likely be based primarily on non-physical attraction, as you might have expected in an extra-species relationship or in Tali’s case specifically. But for Tali her attraction is apparently not on an emotional/psychological/any level other than physical because she wishes to get intimate with a Shephard whether he is, again, an ass or an angel. In that case she seems to “swing both ways”, which is inconsistent with how she wishes other people to treat her.

Below, you admit personality doesn't necessarily impact upon sexual inclination, but here, you're putting them directly in opposition with one another, when it's really just a case of "apples and oranges", as they say. The "relationship" (this applies to any sort, platonic, familial, whatever, aside from sexual) they develop is as you said based on things other than attraction. Isn't this what most of our day-to-day relationships are based upon anyway? Is there an expectation for your best friend, regardless of his/her sexual orientation, to be open to a romantic/sexual relationship with you? If not, are they a hypocrite? The answer is simply, no.

As for having an impact upon sexual inclination, it doesn't, but it leads into the "lesser-evil" argument. The relationship is not strictly out of the blue, so it would be better to have it than not have it, as the way it stands Femsheps get strictly less dialog with Tali and will have even less of it in ME3. 

Labeling it a "lesser evil" scenario is flawed from the premise, however, in my opinion. Either the 'Tali' character is an all-accepting, bisexual alien or a somehow inconsistent all-accepting, "heterosexual" (if this term can even be applied to a fictional, alien race...) one? There's nothing evil about the latter, lesser or otherwise.

Modifié par adriano_c, 09 février 2010 - 05:07 .

[Kolaris8472]

SparksX wrote...

I support your statements OP.

I think Tali should turn down renegades and get interested in paragon's regardless of gender, as that would better suit her character imo

This would be a perfectly acceptable solution, just means less Tali. But yes, it would fix the inconsistency. 

[Gabey5]

hmm its because she is straight. not everyone goes both way