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[Naltair]

Kolaris8472 wrote...

Naltair wrote...

I want people to judge me for my personality too, that does not mean, surprise surprise, I will drop my pants and cuddle up on some guy just because he finds my personality sexy. Does that make me inconsistent?

It does if you've also been involved with mass-murdering females who didn't give you the time of day in the past, and have proven that you don't find either of those qualities attractive. 

But Tali supports the genocide of th Geth?  She isn't an angel.

[T1l]

Kolaris8472 wrote...

 It means you want people to (wow, strangely) judge you for your personality. Tali ends up being inconsistent. 

I don't necessarily agree with that. She likes you either way, whether you're Renegade or Paragon. Her character is intact. She'll only sleep with you (or have a relationship with you, if you'd prefer the subtle difference in wording) if you are male, however; and this is because I believe she is straight.

I think you're basing the fact that Tali is inconsistent on the presumption that she -is- actually bi-sexual; and if that were the case, I'd agree... but she isn't.

Don't get me wrong, I see where you're coming from - I just think it's an odd thing to be so adamant about.

[ODST 3]

Why Tali shouldn't be a female romance: She's straight.

[Naltair]

T1l wrote...

Kolaris8472 wrote...

 It means you want people to (wow, strangely) judge you for your personality. Tali ends up being inconsistent. 

I don't necessarily agree with that. She likes you either way, whether you're Renegade or Paragon. Her character is intact. She'll only sleep with you (or have a relationship with you, if you'd prefer the subtle difference in wording) if you are male, however; and this is because I believe she is straight.

I think you're basing the fact that Tali is inconsistent on the presumption that she -is- actually bi-sexual; and if that were the case, I'd agree... but she isn't.

Don't get me wrong, I see where you're coming from - I just think it's an odd thing to be so adamant about.

I have to agree as well.

[Goat_Shepard]

That audio scares me. To be honest Jennifer Hale is just one of two reasons I don't like Tali as a F/F. The other is that I always picture Mark Meer and Liz Sroka reading lines next to each other. Doesn't it sound sweet? They'd make a cute couple.

But yeah I generally agree with all the posters saying "The Asari are your official play things, don't add Quarians".

[Brahlis]

Kolaris8472 wrote...
So then you're fine with Tali being attracted to renegades who berate her just because they're male and not attracted to females even if they're her best friend in the world, even though she wants everyone to look at her for her personality?

Hey, I'm fine if you're fine with that. I'd just rather not entertain that level of inconsistency in a character. 

How does her liking an Shepard that's an **** have anything to do with her being bisexual?

Modifié par Brahlis, 09 février 2010 - 05:14 .

[TheShady]

Brahlis wrote...

Kolaris8472 wrote...
So then you're fine with Tali being attracted to renegades who berate her just because they're male and not attracted to females even if they're her best friend in the world, even though she wants everyone to look at her for her personality?

Hey, I'm fine if you're fine with that. I'd just rather not entertain that level of inconsistency in a character. 

How does her liking an **** have anything to do with her being bisexual?

I believe the conclusion wasn't that she's bisexual, the conclusion was that her character is inconsistent, and I agree.

[Kolaris8472]

adriano_c wrote...

Below, you admit personality doesn't necessarily impact upon sexual inclination, but here, you're putting them directly in opposition with one another, when it's really just a case of "apples and oranges", as they say. The "relationship" (this applies to any sort, platonic, familial, whatever, aside from sexual) they develop is as you said based on things other than attraction. Isn't this what most of our day-to-day relationships are based upon anyway? Is there an expectation for your best friend, regardless of his/her sexual orientation, to be open to a romantic/sexual relationship with you? If not, are they a hypocrite? The answer is simply, no.

Its the example of the girl who constantly gets into abusive relationships then retreats back to her best friend she's not interested in for some reason. Yes, they're inconsistent if they run around saying they're not into bad boys (as Tali constantly expresses her dissatisfaction with your Renegade decisions) and value platonic friendship based on personality. 

Labeling it a "lesser evil" scenario is flawed from the premise, however, in my opinion. Either the 'Tali' character is an all-accepting, bisexual alien or a somehow inconsistent all-accepting, "heterosexual" (if this term can even be applied to a fictional, alien race...) one? There's nothing evil about the latter, lesser or otherwise.

I didn't communicate the point of the "lesser-evil" properly, at that point its not about character consistency, because we've thrown it out the window. If we're going to have an inconsistent character, better to have her available either way, right? That was the lesser-evil. 

[CyberEagle]

Brahlis wrote...

Kolaris8472 wrote...
It has nothing to do with making Tali a female romance. It has to do with arguing against the argument that the character of Shephard (if female) is not gay. Which would be an important point in standing against a Tali/Femshep line of reasoning. 

I have zero problem with Shepard being gay - male or female. What I do have a problem with is changing established characters to suit that. That's all.

I think he pointed out that it's actually Shepard who's against a romance with Tali, not Tali herself.
Personally, I think options are always good and I can't actually see any reason not to make ALL of the LI's (or at least all Aliens, who can't only choose by appearance if they are willing to enter a relationship with a human) romancable.

What differs this thread from other similiar ones, though, is that he makes an excellent point instead of just saying "it would be cool and I see no reason, why not" (yeah, exactly like I just did, I know), so I wonder... why do you have such a problem with a Tali/FemShep-Relationship? And no, I don't want to hear anything about character consistency or acting out of character or anything, becaue Tali IS obsessed with Shepard, as anyone paying attention to the mission to recruit her knows and she never mentions her sexual preferences; and likewise you CAN play a female Shepard interested in the same sex... oh, excuse me, I mean "interested in other things that LOOK female", because "they don't really count, because they are monogendered" isn't a bad excuse at all and Bioware does not sexualise them at all.

[Ruka13]

TheShady wrote...

1.) Female Shepards get plenty of possibilities to establish their homosexuality: Consort, Liara, Kelly, Strippers
2.) Romanes in ME should not be about the physical at all (one of the major problems with all romances in ME2 is that they all feel very superficial). Tali adores both maleSheps and femSheps. Very much so even. In fact I was almost surprised that my femShep couldn't at least make a move...
3.) The canon is different if you play a maleShep or a femShep. So Tali does not "swing both ways". She'd just be into women if you're a femShep and into men if you're a maleShep. Same can apply to basically all characters.
4.) What the hell is wrong with characters being bisexual? Does it really disturb you that much? Are you jealous of femSheps?
5.) Let's not talk about "horny males". MaleSheps get "the perfect woman" Miranda and someone who wears only tatoos from the waist upwards... Come on...

Along with the OPs posts this has been one of the best replies I have read.

I would especially like to highlight point 3 as it is one of the things that has constantly bugged me when people start saying it changes the characters. RPGs are about choice and the PC shaping the game world through them, as a result or by consequence in each different playthrough Commander Shepard is shaping his companions in different ways. A TheShady very clearly put a character can be one thing in one playthrough and something completely different in another, the important point is that the player is given the choice, and honestly that choice seems to upset a lot of people.

Back on topic.

It's a fact that independently of gender Tali and Shepard grow close during ME1 and ME2 if you played the 'good guy' and I have to say that Tali leads FemShep on quite a bit in ME2 to then abruptly drop all conversation.

I agree with the view that it isn't that Tali is attracted to humans in general just Shepard and it strikes me as a little OOC that Tali wouldn't consider a loving relationship even if Shepard is female, her personality is just to intricate and deep to exclude such a possibility.

As for intimacy think of it this way, a loving relationship doesn't have to be based on sex, especially if you're a Quarian. Why do I say this? I can't really imagine Quarians would engage in sexual relations except to procreate or on 'special ocasions' since the aftermath is so unpleasant and would prevent them from working efficiently.

So yes I agree that Tali was a little OOC with FemShep and very OOC with Renegade MaleShep.

Cheers

P.S: And please people keep it civil.

[addiction21]

Wittand25 wrote...

addiction21 wrote...


I would think Tali being romancable by a male shep and not a female shep would be clear cut enough...  just my 2 waffles.

But than again Bioware changed Juhani from bisexual to lesbian in Kotor so there is a precedent for a patch that changes the romantic availbility of npcs.

Well I am not familiar with that but if theres some precedent for it then its not outside the realm of possibility, but as it stands right now tali has little intrest in a F/F romance.
Maybe they are building it up for ME3. You know you flirt with her as a femshep and you do not romance anyone in ME2, then in ME3 you break down those walls and get her into bed with a femshep. Just rambling on now...

[-Area51-Silent]

Why is this so difficult for people to grasp at though? arguing this about a character is analogous to arguing that anyone you meet should be bisexual. The world just doesn't work that way, and to have that in a game that is supposed to present atleast some sense of a real relationship ( I use the word "real" very loosely) would make the legitimacy of interactions much less.



Fact: If you are gay or bi and looking for a same sex relationship, not everyone you meet and would enjoy that same sex relationship would have that same interest. Thus in some way it actually does add to the legitimacy of the game (The idea of "you can't have everything you want").

[Brahlis]

TheShady wrote...
I believe the conclusion wasn't that she's bisexual, the conclusion was that her character is inconsistent, and I agree.

Why? Because she likes a Shepard that's a total dick to her and doesn't sleep with women because of it?

That's stupid. That's like tracking down all the women who have been verbally abused by their boyfriends, and still stay with them because they "love them", and informing them that they're not being consistant with their character and they should thus start sleeping with women instead.

Oh yeah. Makes perfect sense. Glad you all just solved a world problem. Genius.

Modifié par Brahlis, 09 février 2010 - 05:17 .

[Naltair]

So a renegade Female Shepard is more acceptable?



Wow short sighted much.

[sm00thie88]

Why not, the solution making Tali available for any shepard, no matter which gender, sounds quite legimate to me. I mean she doesn't need to be bisexual, really if you're playing a maleshep she falls in love with him and when playing a femshep just the same.



Tali's love should be shared to all sheps, no matter which gender

[TheShady]

Ruka13 wrote...

TheShady wrote...

1.) Female Shepards get plenty of possibilities to establish their homosexuality: Consort, Liara, Kelly, Strippers
2.) Romanes in ME should not be about the physical at all (one of the major problems with all romances in ME2 is that they all feel very superficial). Tali adores both maleSheps and femSheps. Very much so even. In fact I was almost surprised that my femShep couldn't at least make a move...
3.) The canon is different if you play a maleShep or a femShep. So Tali does not "swing both ways". She'd just be into women if you're a femShep and into men if you're a maleShep. Same can apply to basically all characters.
4.) What the hell is wrong with characters being bisexual? Does it really disturb you that much? Are you jealous of femSheps?
5.) Let's not talk about "horny males". MaleSheps get "the perfect woman" Miranda and someone who wears only tatoos from the waist upwards... Come on...

Along with the OPs posts this has been one of the best replies I have read.

I would especially like to highlight point 3 as it is one of the things that has constantly bugged me when people start saying it changes the characters. RPGs are about choice and the PC shaping the game world through them, as a result or by consequence in each different playthrough Commander Shepard is shaping his companions in different ways. A TheShady very clearly put a character can be one thing in one playthrough and something completely different in another, the important point is that the player is given the choice, and honestly that choice seems to upset a lot of people.

Thank you. 

CyberEagle wrote...

I think he pointed out that it's actually Shepard who's against a romance with Tali, not Tali herself.
Personally, I think options are always good and I can't actually see any reason not to make ALL of the LI's (or at least all Aliens, who can't only choose by appearance if they are willing to enter a relationship with a human) romancable.

What differs this thread from other similiar ones, though, is that he makes an excellent point instead of just saying "it would be cool and I see no reason, why not" (yeah, exactly like I just did, I know), so I wonder... why do you have such a problem with a Tali/FemShep-Relationship? And no, I don't want to hear anything about character consistency or acting out of character or anything, becaue Tali IS obsessed with Shepard, as anyone paying attention to the mission to recruit her knows and she never mentions her sexual preferences; and likewise you CAN play a female Shepard interested in the same sex... oh, excuse me, I mean "interested in other things that LOOK female", because "they don't really count, because they are monogendered" isn't a bad excuse at all and Bioware does not sexualise them at all.

Agreed 100%.

Brahlis wrote...

TheShady wrote...
I believe the conclusion wasn't that she's bisexual, the conclusion was that her character is inconsistent, and I agree.

Why? Because she likes a Shepard that's a total dick to her and doesn't sleep with women because of it?

That's stupid. That's like tracking down all the women who have been verbally abused by their boyfriends, and still stay with them because they "love them", and informing them that they're not being consistant with their character and they should thus start sleeping with women instead.

Oh yeah. Makes perfect sense. Glad you all just solved a world problem. Genius.

It's inconsistent because Tali, judging by what she showed us of her personality, would not "spread her legs" ("take off her mask") for a total dick (renegade character) which she apparently still does, solely because that person has a penis. The thing that's inconsistent is that she is not that shallow, usually.

Modifié par TheShady, 09 février 2010 - 05:20 .

[Kolaris8472]

T1l wrote...
I don't necessarily agree with that. She likes you either way, whether you're Renegade or Paragon. Her character is intact. She'll only sleep with you (or have a relationship with you, if you'd prefer the subtle difference in wording) if you are male, however; and this is because I believe she is straight.

She "likes" you? In what way? She disagrees with all your decisions if you're a Renegade. But she'll sleep with you. Because you're hot. But don't judge her on the mask thing.

I think you're basing the fact that Tali is inconsistent on the presumption that she -is- actually bi-sexual; and if that were the case, I'd agree... but she isn't.

If Tali was explicitly straight I would then be arguing for adding flags to remove Renegades from her accepted list of "will kill myself to sleep with". But I don't think it was explicit, no, so I argue instead that she'd be more open to accept a Femshep as she's already proven (except for sleeping with Renegades) that she values personality. 

[Naltair]

Also for all those arguing that Tali disapproves of renegade choices you do realize that the role of who is for and against choices in ME1 is fluid and can change on who you have in your party. Meaning that the characters in your party are hardly consistent based on who you take with you.



One playthru she may be against a Renegade action, but if you have Liara with you, she may be the one spouting the Renegade option as more valid.



Just saying.

[Naltair]

sm00thie88 wrote...

Why not, the solution making Tali available for any shepard, no matter which gender, sounds quite legimate to me. I mean she doesn't need to be bisexual, really if you're playing a maleshep she falls in love with him and when playing a femshep just the same.

Tali's love should be shared to all sheps, no matter which gender

How is she different from Garrus or Jack or Thane then?  Oh wait she isn't, just a fan favorite.

[Akrim_Drak]

I'll just add. I do think that Tali(and Garrus for that matter) SHOULD have been options for both sexes as both of their romances aren't about physical attraction really.



Having said that however, I think now that it's been done and they're both canonically(is that even a word?) heterosexual, omnisexual technically but whatever, they shouldn't go and change it. Is it bad writing? Perhaps, but that's just how it is. I'm sure there'll be slashfics out there that'll do it though.

[T1l]

Kolaris8472 wrote...

T1l wrote...
I don't necessarily agree with that. She likes you either way, whether you're Renegade or Paragon. Her character is intact. She'll only sleep with you (or have a relationship with you, if you'd prefer the subtle difference in wording) if you are male, however; and this is because I believe she is straight.

She "likes" you? In what way? She disagrees with all your decisions if you're a Renegade. But she'll sleep with you. Because you're hot. But don't judge her on the mask thing.

I think you're basing the fact that Tali is inconsistent on the presumption that she -is- actually bi-sexual; and if that were the case, I'd agree... but she isn't.

If Tali was explicitly straight I would then be arguing for adding flags to remove Renegades from her accepted list of "will kill myself to sleep with". But I don't think it was explicit, no, so I argue instead that she'd be more open to accept a Femshep as she's already proven (except for sleeping with Renegades) that she values personality. 

Well, now you're just being nonsensical for the sake of argument. You're essentially saying that because she's willing to forego her morals(?) and sleep with a Renegade male Shepard, she should forego her sexuality and pursue a female relationship with female Shepard. They're two completely unrelated topics.

Unless the removal of her having a relationship with Renegade Shepard would also quell your interest for a female/female romance option, and I suspect that isn't the case.

[Kolaris8472]

Naltair wrote...

So a renegade Female Shepard is more acceptable?

Wow short sighted much.

No, its stupid. But as I see it....this is going to seem incredibly stupid, but....I'd see Tali willing to get intimate with Shephard in the following order: Paragon Male, Paragon Female, Renegade Male, Renegade Female. 

It would be better to correct the Paragon Female element and allow the Renegade Female one. God this is stupid. But that's why its a "lesser evil". 

[Naltair]

Kolaris8472 wrote...
If Tali was explicitly straight I would then be arguing for adding flags to remove Renegades from her accepted list of "will kill myself to sleep with". But I don't think it was explicit, no, so I argue instead that she'd be more open to accept a Femshep as she's already proven (except for sleeping with Renegades) that she values personality. 

Why does Tali have to value personality? If anything she seems to value male Shepard because he is a big damn dashing hero who gets the job done.  What does being Renegade or Paragon have to do with it, if Tali had her way she would annihilate the entire Geth race.  Not exactly a very paragon thing to do.

I get that she is trapped in her suit but maybe, just maybe she likes masculinity enough to want to get it on with a male Shepard.  Even that dialog you listed just shows an intimate relationship between two close people but she never wants to be physical, well not overtly.

[tmp7704]

TheShady wrote...

I believe the conclusion wasn't that she's bisexual, the conclusion was that her character is inconsistent, and I agree.

It's not inconsistent -- on one hand you have how one person treats another, which is entirely up to their mental capacity (you can choose to be nice to someone) On the other hand you have sexual attraction which is beyond rational reasoning and cannot be controlled. Tali cannot choose to be attracted to someone she isn't, if she isn't.

[Unata]

FemShep romance options are the pits all around.



An Armadillo she bumbs forheads with - Garrus



A reptile thats dieing and crying - Thane



An idiot that loves himself more then anyone else - Jacob



A Yoman that loves everyone - Kelly



The only one in ME2 that piqued my FShep's interests was Tali, just to be let down in the end...sigh