617 réponses à ce sujet

[Kolaris8472]

T1l wrote...

Kolaris8472 wrote...

T1l wrote...
I don't necessarily agree with that. She likes you either way, whether you're Renegade or Paragon. Her character is intact. She'll only sleep with you (or have a relationship with you, if you'd prefer the subtle difference in wording) if you are male, however; and this is because I believe she is straight.

She "likes" you? In what way? She disagrees with all your decisions if you're a Renegade. But she'll sleep with you. Because you're hot. But don't judge her on the mask thing.

I think you're basing the fact that Tali is inconsistent on the presumption that she -is- actually bi-sexual; and if that were the case, I'd agree... but she isn't.

If Tali was explicitly straight I would then be arguing for adding flags to remove Renegades from her accepted list of "will kill myself to sleep with". But I don't think it was explicit, no, so I argue instead that she'd be more open to accept a Femshep as she's already proven (except for sleeping with Renegades) that she values personality. 

Well, now you're just being nonsensical for the sake of argument. You're essentially saying that because she's willing to forego her morals(?) and sleep with a Renegade male Shepard, she should forego her sexuality and pursue a female relationship with female Shepard. They're two completely unrelated topics.

Unless the removal of her having a relationship with Renegade Shepard would also quell your interest for a female/female romance option, and I suspect that isn't the case.

I would. Look at my third post on the first page. What I'm interested in is in #1 consistent characters, #2 more Tali, in that order. I've been able to reconcile them from my point of view, but if making Tali less "shallow" is simply making her not fall in the lap of a Renegade Shephard, that works. 

But no, I don't see how they're unrelated topics at all. When you see Tali as a character, is she a moral, insightful one or a clearcut sexual one like Miranda? Clearly the former. Which is why it makes no sense to me that she's quicker to drop her values than her sexuality. 

[Naltair]

tmp7704 wrote...

TheShady wrote...

I believe the conclusion wasn't that she's bisexual, the conclusion was that her character is inconsistent, and I agree.

It's not inconsistent -- on one hand you have how one person treats another, which is entirely up to their mental capacity (you can choose to be nice to someone) On the other hand you have sexual attraction which is beyond rational reasoning and cannot be controlled. Tali cannot choose to be attracted to someone she isn't, if she isn't.

This is very true, attraction happens all the times and it isn't rational.

[Goat_Shepard]

Oooo so now FemShep is bisexual and MaleShep is straight. NOT FAIR MAN NOT FAIR! I better be able to bone Jacob or Garrus or Thane, man!

See what happens? You want something, then we want something, then you want more, then we want more. Sign me up for the "Am very happy with whatever Bioware does" bandwagon.

Be happy with your awesome friendship with Tali, she is a very good friend.

Also I might be a minority but I don't like Miranda and Jack (or at least not as much, couldn't even romance them on my "alternate" characters. They're just too angry/annoyed/pissed off. I'd be cool with a Jack F/F.

[Naltair]

Unata wrote...

FemShep romance options are the pits all around.

An Armadillo she bumbs forheads with - Garrus

A reptile thats dieing and crying - Thane

An idiot that loves himself more then anyone else - Jacob

A Yoman that loves everyone - Kelly

The only one in ME2 that piqued my FShep's interests was Tali, just to be let down in the end...sigh

So are you saying male Shepard has better choices because if the opposite were true for a male player they were equally if not more so screwed.

Meaning they have no same sex outlet.

It really makes me laugh that people think that female gets screwed because they don't have a same sex choice they like while male Shepard has NONE.

I have no sympathy for you.

[sm00thie88]

Naltair wrote...

sm00thie88 wrote...

Why not, the solution making Tali available for any shepard, no matter which gender, sounds quite legimate to me. I mean she doesn't need to be bisexual, really if you're playing a maleshep she falls in love with him and when playing a femshep just the same.

Tali's love should be shared to all sheps, no matter which gender

How is she different from Garrus or Jack or Thane then?  Oh wait she isn't, just a fan favorite.

Nothing to do with fan favorite or not. But seriously, I would feel quite pissed if I'd played a femshep in ME2 regarding to the romance options. And since Bioware says it's your game it should not really have an impact on your LI options which gender you pic - that's all what I want to say.

[T1l]

Kolaris8472 wrote...

No, its stupid. But as I see it....this is going to seem incredibly stupid, but....I'd see Tali willing to get intimate with Shephard in the following order: Paragon Male, Paragon Female, Renegade Male, Renegade Female. 

It would be better to correct the Paragon Female element and allow the Renegade Female one. God this is stupid. But that's why its a "lesser evil". 

I would pursue a relationship with a slightly roguish female rather than my best friend, who is male. This is because I am straight. I would rather pursue a relationship with a woman of questionable morals, rather than a man. It would also seem that Tali’s preference isn’t necessarily based on morals, but on sexual orientation. This isn't a hard concept to grasp, and I personally don't see how it could be an inconstancy in character.

Anyway... like I said two pages ago, I understand where you're coming from and I understand how you'd want something like this in the game but it's been discussed to death; so much so that the CEO of Bioware answered it in an interview.

[Kolaris8472]

Goat_Shepard wrote...
Oooo so now FemShep is bisexual and MaleShep is straight. NOT FAIR MAN NOT FAIR! I better be able to bone Jacob or Garrus or Thane, man!
See what happens? You want something, then we want something, then you want more, then we want more. Sign me up for the "Am very happy with whatever Bioware does" bandwagon.

Who are these "we's"? 

Be happy with your awesome friendship with Tali, she is a very good friend.

Yep, she is. Only we get less of the friendship because, as I pointed out, resources get tied up in the romance. Her "unique" conversations, like Mordin singing his awesome Gilbert and Sullivan rendition, are excluded. In ME, romance precludes friendship. 

As I've said elsewhere, I'd be happy if they made more non-romantic dialog so you don't miss out. But they won't. And then I wanted to bring up the inconsistency argument, and then this thread happened...

[TheShady]

Naltair wrote...

tmp7704 wrote...

TheShady wrote...

I believe the conclusion wasn't that she's bisexual, the conclusion was that her character is inconsistent, and I agree.

It's not inconsistent -- on one hand you have how one person treats another, which is entirely up to their mental capacity (you can choose to be nice to someone) On the other hand you have sexual attraction which is beyond rational reasoning and cannot be controlled. Tali cannot choose to be attracted to someone she isn't, if she isn't.

This is very true, attraction happens all the times and it isn't rational.

But the decision to get intimate with someone is, to some degree at least, rational.

[T1l]

Kolaris8472 wrote...

Which is why it makes no sense to me that she's quicker to drop her values than her sexuality. 

Because sexuality isn't a choice.

[Naltair]

Kolaris8472 wrote...
I would. Look at my third post on the first page. What I'm interested in is in #1 consistent characters, #2 more Tali, in that order. I've been able to reconcile them from my point of view, but if making Tali less "shallow" is simply making her not fall in the lap of a Renegade Shephard, that works. 

But no, I don't see how they're unrelated topics at all. When you see Tali as a character, is she a moral, insightful one or a clearcut sexual one like Miranda? Clearly the former. Which is why it makes no sense to me that she's quicker to drop her values than her sexuality. 

Tali is morally grey, she is a nice girl and nervous due to her inexperience but she isn't an angel and has her faults.  She hates the Geth with a passion.  She gets very riled up when she sees quarians in trouble to the point that even Shepard has to calm her down.

But that aside attraction happens in the oddest places and if she is willing to fall for a jerk so be it, I have seen some nice women fall for jerks.  Oh well it sucks but that is how it goes.  Deal with it.

[Naltair]

TheShady wrote...

Naltair wrote...

This is very true, attraction happens all the times and it isn't rational.

But the decision to get intimate with someone is, to some degree at least, rational.

Maybe, that is debatable.

Sometimes you can also be a jerk to most people and have a soft place for that one person, butt hat is besides the point.

Being a jerk Shepard of either gender has no more bearing on this relationship than it does with any other, romance wise.  You can be the killingest bastard in the Universe and if you select the right choices any character will like you and want your to bone them.

Even Kelly Chambers the most loving people person in the universe.

[apotheosic]

wow. very well made argument, i must commend you on putting so much time and effort into this. all of your points are entirely valid and true, however you did nothing to actually connect this to Tali. any of your points could be just as easily used to argue miranda, jack, or grunt (or most of the rest of your crew for that matter) as romance options.

you are entirely correct that no harm could come of it, and that it fits character fairly well, but your arguments are vague and generic enough to fit any character just as well.

[tmp7704]

TheShady wrote...

But the decision to get intimate with someone is, to some degree at least, rational.

Yes, Tali could probably give female Shepard some pity sex. Question is, would anyone be satisfied with that?

[Ruka13]

Akrim_Drak wrote...

I'll just add. I do think that Tali(and Garrus for that matter) SHOULD have been options for both sexes as both of their romances aren't about physical attraction really.

Having said that however, I think now that it's been done and they're both canonically(is that even a word?) heterosexual, omnisexual technically but whatever, they shouldn't go and change it. Is it bad writing? Perhaps, but that's just how it is. I'm sure there'll be slashfics out there that'll do it though.

But my friend that's where things get blurry. Tali, unlike Miranda for example, never tells FemShep she's not interested she just talks about suit-linking, blushes (you can see this if you chose the Renegade reply) and then outright stops talking to you effectively leaving you hanging.

Tali becomes inconsistent IMO precisely because of this.

And yes canonically is a word .

Cheers

[Brahlis]

If you're talking about the inconsistency between dialogue for maleShep and femShelp then you're only slightly correct. As you said, you're only one person down in comparison to maleShep which probably comes out to one or two minutes of dialogue. So, to remedy that you want them to change a character so that they're bisexual and you can get your two minutes of dialogue?

I still don't see what this has to do with Tali specifically. Couldn't they just as easily add a character in ME3 that suits your needs? Why retcon a current one and completely devalue everything?

Modifié par Brahlis, 09 février 2010 - 05:35 .

[Kolaris8472]

T1l wrote...

Kolaris8472 wrote...

No, its stupid. But as I see it....this is going to seem incredibly stupid, but....I'd see Tali willing to get intimate with Shephard in the following order: Paragon Male, Paragon Female, Renegade Male, Renegade Female. 

It would be better to correct the Paragon Female element and allow the Renegade Female one. God this is stupid. But that's why its a "lesser evil". 

I would pursue a relationship with a slightly roguish female rather than my best friend, who is male. This is because I am straight. I would rather pursue a relationship with a woman of questionable morals, rather than a man. It would also seem that Tali’s preference isn’t necessarily based on morals, but on sexual orientation. This isn't a hard concept to grasp, and I personally don't see how it could be an inconstancy in character.

I agree with your assessment but not your conclusion. You value sexuality over morals, that's fine. From what we know of Tali up until the romance starts, she doesn't. That's why I consider it inconsistent. I suppose you could say that its a "revelation" that she's actually really just into hot hunks even if they're against what she stands for, but that's where I'd bring in that word "shallow". 

Anyway... like I said two pages ago, I understand where you're coming from and I understand how you'd want something like this in the game but it's been discussed to death; so much so that the CEO of Bioware answered it in an interview.

He answered nothing from what I read of it. Apparently he addressed Femsheps specifically? I don't mean to sound lazy, but could you quote it?

[TheShady]

Kolaris8472 wrote...

Yep, she is. Only we get less of the friendship because, as I pointed out, resources get tied up in the romance. Her "unique" conversations, like Mordin singing his awesome Gilbert and Sullivan rendition, are excluded. In ME, romance precludes friendship. 

As I've said elsewhere, I'd be happy if they made more non-romantic dialog so you don't miss out. But they won't. And then I wanted to bring up the inconsistency argument, and then this thread happened...

That's exactly my problem too. I can't count how often I ran to Tali (going through 2 horribly long loading screens) hoping to finally get more conversation. It never happened, she was too busy with her engine.
There's generally very little dialog with any character unless you romance them.

I think there should always be a non-romance conclusion with all characters perhaps even with a scene similar to the romance, just without romance. I brushed off Garrus romance-wise and now he's always busy. I wanted to tell him that I love him as a friend and appreciate him sticking with me all these years.
Did not get that chance. I also did not get that chance with Tali as apparently, she's straight... <_<


I'd even be very happy if there would be no romance at all but proper conclusions/climaxes to the relationships...

Modifié par TheShady, 09 février 2010 - 05:41 .

[T1l]

Kolaris8472 wrote...

He answered nothing from what I read of it. Apparently he addressed Femsheps specifically? I don't mean to sound lazy, but could you quote it?

Sure.

IGN

IGN: Will there be gay relationships for the male Shepard? Here at
IGN we've heard a lot of positive feedback from the inclusion of gay
relationships in Dragon Age; compare that with the somewhat conspicuous
absence of them from the first Mass Effect, especially with the chance
for a lesbian relationship.



Ray Muzyka: Here's how the games are different: Dragon Age is
a first person narrative, where you're taking on an origin and a role,
and you are that character at a fundamental level. It's fundamentally
about defining your character, including those kinds of concepts. In
Mass Effect it's more a third person narrative, where you have a
pre-defined character who is who he is, or she is. But it's not a
wide-open choice matrix. It's more choice on a tactical level with a
pre-defined character. So they're different types of narratives, and
that's intentional.



We're not saying that one approach is better than the other. In our
previous games, as we did in Jade Empire, as we did in KOTOR, as we did
in Baldur's Gate,
and many games before and in the future, we enable those kinds of
choices, whereas in Mass Effect it's more about Shepard as a defined
character with certain approaches and worldviews, and that's just who
he or she is. So we constrain the choice set somewhat, but enable more
tactical choices and enable a deeper, richer personality, because it's
more focused around defining one character, it's not as wide open. But
that's by choice.



It's first person versus third person narrative, and the types of
choices you get to make within that are related to that, whether you've
got a pre-defined character or a wide-open character. Some of our games
have been wide open, and some have been more constrained, and we'll
probably continue both kinds of character development in the future.

[Naltair]

sm00thie88 wrote...

Naltair wrote...

sm00thie88 wrote...

Why not, the solution making Tali available for any shepard, no matter which gender, sounds quite legimate to me. I mean she doesn't need to be bisexual, really if you're playing a maleshep she falls in love with him and when playing a femshep just the same.

Tali's love should be shared to all sheps, no matter which gender

How is she different from Garrus or Jack or Thane then?  Oh wait she isn't, just a fan favorite.

Nothing to do with fan favorite or not. But seriously, I would feel quite pissed if I'd played a femshep in ME2 regarding to the romance options. And since Bioware says it's your game it should not really have an impact on your LI options which gender you pic - that's all what I want to say.

Why would you be pissed?  What makes male Shepard's options categorically better?

[Kolaris8472]

Naltair wrote...

Kolaris8472 wrote...
I would. Look at my third post on the first page. What I'm interested in is in #1 consistent characters, #2 more Tali, in that order. I've been able to reconcile them from my point of view, but if making Tali less "shallow" is simply making her not fall in the lap of a Renegade Shephard, that works. 

But no, I don't see how they're unrelated topics at all. When you see Tali as a character, is she a moral, insightful one or a clearcut sexual one like Miranda? Clearly the former. Which is why it makes no sense to me that she's quicker to drop her values than her sexuality. 

Tali is morally grey, she is a nice girl and nervous due to her inexperience but she isn't an angel and has her faults.  She hates the Geth with a passion.  She gets very riled up when she sees quarians in trouble to the point that even Shepard has to calm her down.

But that aside attraction happens in the oddest places and if she is willing to fall for a jerk so be it, I have seen some nice women fall for jerks.  Oh well it sucks but that is how it goes.  Deal with it.

I'm using the words Renegade and Paragon out of convenience. No Tali isn't strictly "Paragon", this isn't a white and black morality system. But if you bring her along for all your Renegade actions she clearly shows disapproval. 

The "deal with it" line, great. I'm asking people if they'd rather have a morally/personality consistent character or a possibly sexually consistent character and they say its the sex that matters. Greaat....

[Brahlis]

Kolaris8472 wrote ...
You value sexuality over morals, that's fine. From what we know of Tali up until the romance starts, she doesn't. That's why I consider it inconsistent. I suppose you could say that its a "revelation" that she's actually really just into hot hunks even if they're against what she stands for, but that's where I'd bring in that word "shallow".

You can love someone without being sexually interested in them. You know that right? That's why your entire argument about inconsistency is completely retarded. She loves femShep, but not in a sexual way. It's not that hard to get.

Every heard for a Bromance?

Modifié par Brahlis, 09 février 2010 - 05:41 .

[Adon 9]

Kolaris8472 wrote...

Anyway... like I said two pages ago, I understand where you're coming from and I understand how you'd want something like this in the game but it's been discussed to death; so much so that the CEO of Bioware answered it in an interview.

He answered nothing from what I read of it. Apparently he addressed Femsheps specifically? I don't mean to sound lazy, but could you quote it?

There was that other lengthy thread about same-sex romances, and the quote basically talks about Mass Effect being more of a 'third person narrative' with Shepard having defined characteristics.  It didn't really convince anyone to change their minds... those against the same-sex options basically used it to crow and declare victory, and those for found it to be full of doublespeak and outright contradictions with the game experience as well.

Simply put, citing that interview isn't really going to get anyone to change their minds, and it's probably not a good idea to keep going back to it as proof of a point. 

Modifié par Adon 9, 09 février 2010 - 05:41 .

[Kolaris8472]

Well color me confused but I still don't see anything in that interview explaining how Shephard, if female, is not possibly bisexual or lesbian. Third person narrative, yadda yadda...but the precedent is already there.

[Wittand25]

T1l wrote...

Kolaris8472 wrote...

He answered nothing from what I read of it. Apparently he addressed Femsheps specifically? I don't mean to sound lazy, but could you quote it?

Sure.

IGN

IGN: Will there be gay relationships for the male Shepard? Here at
IGN we've heard a lot of positive feedback from the inclusion of gay
relationships in Dragon Age; compare that with the somewhat conspicuous
absence of them from the first Mass Effect, especially with the chance
for a lesbian relationship.



Ray Muzyka: Here's how the games are different: Dragon Age is
a first person narrative, where you're taking on an origin and a role,
and you are that character at a fundamental level. It's fundamentally
about defining your character, including those kinds of concepts. In
Mass Effect it's more a third person narrative, where you have a
pre-defined character who is who he is, or she is. But it's not a
wide-open choice matrix. It's more choice on a tactical level with a
pre-defined character. So they're different types of narratives, and
that's intentional.



We're not saying that one approach is better than the other. In our
previous games, as we did in Jade Empire, as we did in KOTOR, as we did
in Baldur's Gate,
and many games before and in the future, we enable those kinds of
choices, whereas in Mass Effect it's more about Shepard as a defined
character with certain approaches and worldviews, and that's just who
he or she is. So we constrain the choice set somewhat, but enable more
tactical choices and enable a deeper, richer personality, because it's
more focused around defining one character, it's not as wide open. But
that's by choice.



It's first person versus third person narrative, and the types of
choices you get to make within that are related to that, whether you've
got a pre-defined character or a wide-open character. Some of our games
have been wide open, and some have been more constrained, and we'll
probably continue both kinds of character development in the future.

Only he is wrong you can not customise the gray warden anymore than you can Shepard, and frankly I dont see how homosexual options would change anything regarding Shepards behavior or character so saying he is more predifined is a void argument.

[Naltair]

Kolaris8472 wrote...
I agree with your assessment but not your conclusion. You value sexuality over morals, that's fine. From what we know of Tali up until the romance starts, she doesn't. That's why I consider it inconsistent. I suppose you could say that its a "revelation" that she's actually really just into hot hunks even if they're against what she stands for, but that's where I'd bring in that word "shallow". 

But how do we know how she feels about sex, or what she is even thinking?  You may just be projecting your ideas of sexuality and morals on Tali.  Because I am not seeing this point at all.  I see a young woman attracted to a man of a different but similar species and she wants to get physical with him.  She wants to feel his skin on hers.

She is very clear on this.  She knows what she wants once the conversation gets going, that is more than I can say for the female option which is just all wishy washy stuff.

As an aside I will add that the friendship paths should have been longer for all the romance choices.

That was very disappointing for all the choices.