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[WilliamShatner]

T1l wrote...

Kolaris8472 wrote...

Alright, I'm still not getting you. Can you please section out specifically what you feel he said that indicates a Female Shephard is not bisexual because of third person narrative? That same third person narrative that lead her into as many as three lesbian encounters? 

Don't get me wrong, I did feel he put it quite strongly there will be no gay male shephards because of "third person narrative", as such encounters have not existed in the game before he said that. 

This is the last post I make; it's getting late and I have readings to do.

Again, you're being selective in information you want to accept. Ray Muzyka states: "In Mass Effect it's more a third person narrative, where you have a pre-defined character who is who he is, or she is. But it's not a wide-open choice matrix. It's more choice on a tactical level with a pre-defined character."

I'd quote more, but it's there for you to read. It is inclusive of the female gender, not exclusive, but you choose to take it that way - and again, you can completely disregard the whole article and comment if you wish, and from the thread, I assume you will. I, nor anyone in this thread will change how you feel; that much is apparent. That's all good; it was an interesting discussion, despite going in circles. 'Night.

But this "third person narrative" nonsense flies in the face of what Casey Hudson says when he says that it is "your story" and that Commander Shepard is "your Commander Shepard".  

So the Muzyka's argument holds little water.

[Naltair]

WilliamShatner wrote...
If Meryl Streep and Jessica Alba performed the same script would you think the character was essentially the same person?  No, because a quality actor brings as much to a role as the lines they read.  I get far more out of playing as female Shepard than I do playing as male Shepard.  I hear a range of emotion, depth and subtlety in Hale's voice acting that isn't there in Meer's.  

I respect your opinion and you are entitled to it, butt he stance that one gender does not deserve a character based on your opinion is what seems irrational.  The fact is if you choose to play as female then you will have to life with the harsh reality, I know, of not being able to romance Tali.

But that has nothing to do with the quality of the genders but the decisions by the developers.

[TheShady]

T1l wrote...

Again, you're being selective in information you want to accept. Ray Muzyka states: "In Mass Effect it's more a third person narrative, where you have a pre-defined character who is who he is, or she is. But it's not a wide-open choice matrix. It's more choice on a tactical level with a pre-defined character."

An EA CEO said that. I think it pretty much contradicts what Bioware would say about the matter and it pretty much contradicts the idea of the savegame-continuity.

It's political talk, clearly.

[Kolaris8472]

T1l wrote...

Kolaris8472 wrote...

Alright, I'm still not getting you. Can you please section out specifically what you feel he said that indicates a Female Shephard is not bisexual because of third person narrative? That same third person narrative that lead her into as many as three lesbian encounters? 

Don't get me wrong, I did feel he put it quite strongly there will be no gay male shephards because of "third person narrative", as such encounters have not existed in the game before he said that. 

This is the last post I make; it's getting late and I have readings to do.

Again, you're being selective in information you want to accept. Ray Muzyka states: "In Mass Effect it's more a third person narrative, where you have a pre-defined character who is who he is, or she is. But it's not a wide-open choice matrix. It's more choice on a tactical level with a pre-defined character."

I'd quote more, but it's there for you to read. It is inclusive of the female gender, not exclusive, but you choose to take it that way - and again, you can completely disregard the whole article and comment if you wish, and from the thread, I assume you will. I, nor anyone in this thread will change how you feel; that much is apparent. That's all good; it was an interesting discussion, despite going in circles. 'Night.

Mmk, we'll both have to take our stances on what to ignore. I'll ignore the pandering CEO, you ignore the lesbian encounters with the Consort, Liara, and Kelley that are already in the game. 

I'm sorry I can't persuade you that I'm open to persuasion, but...if that's it, while completely ignoring in-game evidence to the contrary...nope, not happening. 

[Naltair]

WilliamShatner wrote...
So the Muzyka's argument holds little water.

Being the Manager, it makes his argument hold the most water  even if it does not exactly make sense.  He is the boss or one of them.

[Naltair]

TheShady wrote...

T1l wrote...

Again, you're being selective in information you want to accept. Ray Muzyka states: "In Mass Effect it's more a third person narrative, where you have a pre-defined character who is who he is, or she is. But it's not a wide-open choice matrix. It's more choice on a tactical level with a pre-defined character."

An EA CEO said that. I think it pretty much contradicts what Bioware would say about the matter and it pretty much contradicts the idea of the savegame-continuity.

It's political talk, clearly.

Ray is Bioware.

[T1l]

I added a small disclaimer to my earlier post, you may want to read it. Shatner, Shady and Kolaris - all case in point.

[SimonTheFrog]

OT, nice read. I agree completely.

[Katsaurs]

Just wanted to say OP, I agree whole heartedly also- definitely has my support on the matter.

Edit: While I would love to give my own views on the matter there isn't very much I can say that hasn't already been said. Either way its falling on deaf ears and neither side is going to sway one and other, it's simply going round in circles

So with that, all I can say is I'm pro-Tali/femShep on the stance that it doesn't harm anyone elses playthrough outside of your own computer- to me she's straight if you play manShep and 'should' have been but was sadly denied bi/lesbian if you went through with femShep. I know that can be said for Garrus also and I whole heartedly take the same stance with him too. Both sides of the fans (same sex/hetero) were pleading for Bioware to make them available, and to make them strictly available for one half of the fans only seems a bit like a smack in the face.

Modifié par Katsaurs, 09 février 2010 - 06:21 .

[tmp7704]

WilliamShatner wrote...

If Meryl Streep and Jessica Alba performed the same script would you think the character was essentially the same person?  No, because a quality actor brings as much to a role as the lines they read.

They would both be attempting to convey the same character. A character who in both cases feels and thinks the same.

I get far more out of playing as female Shepard than I do playing as male Shepard.  I hear a range of emotion, depth and subtlety in Hale's voice acting that isn't there in Meer's.

Does a mute person have no emotion then at all, given you cannot hear any? Does their limited ability to express themselves make them "not deserving" someone's love? Because that's where your reasoning takes us, when taken to natural conclusion.

[TheShady]

Naltair wrote...

TheShady wrote...

T1l wrote...

Again, you're being selective in information you want to accept. Ray Muzyka states: "In Mass Effect it's more a third person narrative, where you have a pre-defined character who is who he is, or she is. But it's not a wide-open choice matrix. It's more choice on a tactical level with a pre-defined character."

An EA CEO said that. I think it pretty much contradicts what Bioware would say about the matter and it pretty much contradicts the idea of the savegame-continuity.

It's political talk, clearly.

Ray is Bioware.

Sorry, must have mixed that up with something else I read...

Still, it feels like it's contradicting the idea and concept behind the game.

[Kolaris8472]

Naltair wrote...

Kolaris8472 wrote...

Naltair wrote...

By that logic I should be able to reveal her father as traitor and she should still love me.

Whoops that isn't the case.

Right, because you'd expect her to judge you harshly over a decision that goes against everything she wants. 

Except...everywhere else in the game. 

But how is this different from any other romance?

I agree it SHOULD matter.

But it does not.

I want it to matter, but it does not.  It's obviously an engine limitation or just something they didn't really consider.

Its different from every other romance because Tali specifically, as a character, has a unique reason for looking beyond gender. She asks the same of everyone else with her suit, but only gets it from Shephard. 

Miranda? Taking care of Cerberus' "interests"
Jack? Casual approach to sex, doesn't care who you are

It works fine for Jack and Miranda to get it on with you regardless, not with Tali. 

And if you can truly believe they don't consider the personal consistency of their characters, then...well, isn't that pretty much bad writing? Or bad SOMETHING?

[defenestrated]

WilliamShatner wrote...

But this "third person narrative" nonsense flies in the face of what Casey Hudson says when he says that it is "your story" and that Commander Shepard is "your Commander Shepard".  

So the Muzyka's argument holds little water.

My Commander Shepard saved the council, the Rachni queen, gave files to the Shadow Broker, and saved the Collector base - that was all up to me. My Commander Shepard is an ex-Alliance marine - that's out of my hands. Muzyka's comments strike me as a bit of a cop-out given the existing bisexual content for FemShep but I don't think the two positions - "your" Shepard and a third-person narrative framework - are mutually exclusive.

[Guaritor]

So wait... why can tali not be gay again? Not liking females isn't shallow, if shes just not attracted to girls then why force it? Ive been through alot with a friend of mine, and would probably take a bullet for him... doesn't mean im shallow for not wanting to jump him.

[Naltair]

tmp7704 wrote...
Does a mute person have no emotion then at all, given you cannot hear any? Does their limited ability to express themselves make them "not deserving" someone's love? Because that's where your reasoning takes us, when taken to natural conclusion.

I have to agree it makes taking your argument as serious very difficult when you add nonsensical additions to your posts.

[TheShady]

tmp7704 wrote...

Does a mute person have no emotion then at all, given you cannot hear any? Does their limited ability to express themselves make them "not deserving" someone's love? Because that's where your reasoning takes us, when taken to natural conclusion.

How can a mute person be a voice actor?

It's not like animations are good enough to express the characters feelings in video games. So the only medium we have is voice acting. You can't twist that away from video games just like that...

[Abirn]

Guaritor wrote...

So wait... why can tali not be gay again? Not liking females isn't shallow, if shes just not attracted to girls then why force it? Ive been through alot with a friend of mine, and would probably take a bullet for him... doesn't mean im shallow for not wanting to jump him.

The conversation is recorded and exists, Fox news made them take it out.......

[WilliamShatner]

Naltair wrote...

WilliamShatner wrote...
So the Muzyka's argument holds little water.

Being the Manager, it makes his argument hold the most water  even if it does not exactly make sense.  He is the boss or one of them.

As far as I'm aware Muzyka is only a figure head at BioWare nowadays.

Casey Hudson is the project director.  It would be like a CEO of Fox telling James Cameron that he knows more about the Avatar universe than Cameron.

But then again Hudson hasn't exactly been accurate when talking about Mass Effect either.

[Kolaris8472]

T1l wrote...
EDIT: To clarify, you're also assuming the Bioware developers see the previous relationships with Asari as female. They do not. That much has been stated by Casey Hudson; again, that information is in the above category as well. You either choose to accept that, or disregard it. Up to you.

First: If we're taking Casey Hudson's points into "evidence", they'll conflict with what the CEO said. Hudson has gone on record calling Shephard "Your Shephard" and painting it in a first person narrative light. 

Second, I actually agree that an Asari/Female Human relationship is not strictly a lesbian relationship, as a relationship is two ways, and it is not lesbian in two ways. Its pretty much impossible for Asari to be lesbian, as they're mono-gendered and capable of breeding regardless. For the human involved, having sex with a female is...lesbian. That's pretty much all there is to it. 

[Guaritor]

Abirn wrote...

Guaritor wrote...

So wait... why can tali not be gay again? Not liking females isn't shallow, if shes just not attracted to girls then why force it? Ive been through alot with a friend of mine, and would probably take a bullet for him... doesn't mean im shallow for not wanting to jump him.

The conversation is recorded and exists, Fox news made them take it out.......

But fox let them keep the DA:O orgy.... right i believe that...

Modifié par Guaritor, 09 février 2010 - 06:23 .

[SimonTheFrog]

Guaritor wrote...

So wait... why can tali not be gay again? Not liking females isn't shallow, if shes just not attracted to girls then why force it? Ive been through alot with a friend of mine, and would probably take a bullet for him... doesn't mean im shallow for not wanting to jump him.

That's a valid point in reallife, but on the Normandy we show our affection with hustling. Maybe not Samara, but everyone else does.

[TheShady]

Kolaris8472 wrote...

Second, I actually agree that an Asari/Female Human relationship is not strictly a lesbian relationship, as a relationship is two ways, and it is not lesbian in two ways. Its pretty much impossible for Asari to be lesbian, as they're mono-gendered and capable of breeding regardless. For the human involved, having sex with a female is...lesbian. That's pretty much all there is to it. 

Well, I don't know if it's about the sex. For all we know asari could be capable of growing penises...
But, yes. Their behaviour and personality strongly resemble females and therefore, for the human involved, it would be a lesbian relationship, I agree.


Besides, asari were created by humans. If they wanted to create a mono-gender race, said humans wouldn't have given them boobs and made them dancers in bars.

Guaritor wrote...

Abirn wrote...

Guaritor wrote...

So wait... why can tali not be gay again? Not liking females isn't shallow, if shes just not attracted to girls then why force it? Ive been through alot with a friend of mine, and would probably take a bullet for him... doesn't mean im shallow for not wanting to jump him.

The conversation is recorded and exists, Fox news made them take it out.......

But fox let them keep the DA:O orgy.... right i believe that...

Because DA:O was not nearly that big of a deal as Mass Effect was. If I recall correctly, the New York Times called Mass Effect something like "the best role-playing game ever". Mass Effect caters to a much wider audience, was an XBox exclusive at first and got a lot more media attention.

Modifié par TheShady, 09 février 2010 - 06:26 .

[Naltair]

Kolaris8472 wrote...
Its different from every other romance because Tali specifically, as a character, has a unique reason for looking beyond gender. She asks the same of everyone else with her suit, but only gets it from Shephard. 

Miranda? Taking care of Cerberus' "interests"
Jack? Casual approach to sex, doesn't care who you are

It works fine for Jack and Miranda to get it on with you regardless, not with Tali. 

And if you can truly believe they don't consider the personal consistency of their characters, then...well, isn't that pretty much bad writing? Or bad SOMETHING?

But your initial statement is conjecture and opinion that tali is an exception.  She is no more an exception that any other potential LI.  Because let's face it the only thing we can't see from the suit is her face, her body is quite easy to see and quite attractive as far as pleasing female shapes go.  The only thing that is masked is her face.

She is just surprised that Shepard wants to be with her even without seeing behind the mask but that does not mean she has some deep yearning to be accepted for her personality.  She is a woman and on some level she wants to be seen as attractive and beautiful, she wants Shepard to accept that and he does and she is elated.  It has nothing to really do with the personality aspect just the acceptance of who she is and affirming her own self esteem of being attractive and having worth to someone special to her.  

It's like the cheesy cliche of the girl with glasses, who thinks no one can see beyond the glasses but she is still quite attractive either way.  but if someone seems genuine and wants to "look" beyond that then she sees that someone else sees her beauty for what it is.

Of course this could all be interpretation but I think you put too much stock in this personality thing.

I still don't see how your argument is any more concrete for Tali than it is for anything LI male or female.

[WilliamShatner]

tmp7704 wrote...

WilliamShatner wrote...

If Meryl Streep and Jessica Alba performed the same script would you think the character was essentially the same person?  No, because a quality actor brings as much to a role as the lines they read.

They would both be attempting to convey the same character. A character who in both cases feels and thinks the same.

For me acting is more than broad strokes.  Yes a character can talk the same lines and perform the same actions, but the actors bring the depth that make them fully-fleshed characters.  There's a reason why you would hire actor X to actor Y.

In the case of Hale vs. Meer I can actually hear what she feels and thinks.  I can hear the compassion in her voice when she talks to Tali.  I don't with Meer.  So for me female Shepard is far more worthy because I BELIEVE that she cares for Tali.

Again, fine if you disagree.  Acting is a subjective art.

[Kolaris8472]

Guaritor wrote...

So wait... why can tali not be gay again? Not liking females isn't shallow, if shes just not attracted to girls then why force it? Ive been through alot with a friend of mine, and would probably take a bullet for him... doesn't mean im shallow for not wanting to jump him.

Sorry if I didn't convey that properly, no, not liking females is not shallow. What is shallow is that Tali will pursue a relationship with a "Renegade" Male Shephard, apparently strictly for his good looks or...something. 

What gets me from point A to point B is that Tali desires people look behind her mask, to see her for her personality and actions. Again, not necessarily meaning she's bisexual. But strictly ignoring a "Renegade" Male Shephard's actions so she can jump him for his looks while not entertaining the possibility of a more intimate relationship with a caring Female Shephard does strike me as inconsistent. 

You can then go and argue that there is some sort of divide between sexual compulsiveness and personal values that justifies being inconsistent in this regard like Naltair did, but I don't buy it, especially with Tali.