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The five flaws of Mass Effect 2


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#51
nicodeemus327

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jienoma wrote...

The rules of an RPG game are well established, not an amout of casual rules that the developer put in the game, skill progression, levels, itemization just to name a few. ME2 could be still an action rpg with a decent itemization, but now is more of a TPS with a good story, disjointed from the first episode and divided in a set of episodes.


There's many different types of RPGs. It's a very big genre. Also skill progression, levels, and itemization all exists in ME2.

Modifié par nicodeemus327, 09 février 2010 - 09:40 .


#52
nicodeemus327

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jienoma wrote...

No squad armor anywhere... :)


Now this right here is at the heart of the problem imo. Saying its not an RPG is just incorrect imo.

#53
nicodeemus327

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TJSolo wrote...

Your idea that "assuming a role" is RPGing is too expansive and can be applied to a lot of games that are RPGs and are not RPGs.

"Assuming
a role" is part of every game I can think of that I have played, yet
that does not mean every game I have played is an RPG.

You use that statement illogically to support only ME2 as being an RPG but not other games.
Just like your other statements that progression != RPG but then you saying ME2 does have progression so it is a RPG.


Genre is just a loose categorization. It's ultimately used to determine what the main focus of a game is. Mass Effect 2 is an action role playing game because its main focus is action and role playing. However that x-plane game (or whatever it was called) is a flight simulator because it main focus is simulating the flight of a plane. You can say its a role playing game but that's certainly not its main focus and its not categorized as such.

Modifié par nicodeemus327, 09 février 2010 - 09:43 .


#54
jienoma

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nicodeemus327 wrote...

jienoma wrote...

The rules of an RPG game are well established, not an amout of casual rules that the developer put in the game, skill progression, levels, itemization just to name a few. ME2 could be still an action rpg with a decent itemization, but now is more of a TPS with a good story, disjointed from the first episode and divided in a set of episodes.


There's many different types of RPGs. It's a very broad genre. Also skill progression, levels, and itemization all exists in ME2.


Itemization not at all, unless you're counting the 2 weapons per set and the few almost aesthetical armor, and it lacks of itemization for your party too. Level progression and skills are so thin that's almost hard to see at all, 5 skills per character is not what i call a deep skill progression.

Modifié par jienoma, 09 février 2010 - 09:47 .


#55
TJSolo

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I wasn't talking about a specific game, simply because you would try to rationalize and nitpick any example just to make the statement valid for ME2.

My statement was pointed directly at the scope of your "assuming the role" argument.

Using your "assuming the role" idea, it can be logically applied to other games that are not RPGs.

Assuming a role is the principle notion in most games; even sports games have career mores where you assume the role of a player and skill progression.




#56
nicodeemus327

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jienoma wrote...

nicodeemus327 wrote...

jienoma wrote...

The rules of an RPG game are well established, not an amout of casual rules that the developer put in the game, skill progression, levels, itemization just to name a few. ME2 could be still an action rpg with a decent itemization, but now is more of a TPS with a good story, disjointed from the first episode and divided in a set of episodes.


There's many different types of RPGs. It's a very broad genre. Also skill progression, levels, and itemization all exists in ME2.


Itemization not at all, unless you're counting the 2 weapons per set and the few almost aesthetical armor, and it lacks of itemization for your party too. Level progression and skills are so thin that's almost hard to see at all, 5 skills per character is not what i call a deep skill progression.


Those weapons are itemization. ME2 has more weapons with unique play styles. The choices there (at least for shep) are more then just cosmetic. I will agree with you about the skills but there's a big reason for that. ME2 is a ton more squad centric in its combat. Don't just right these things off just because they aren't in ME1. All of that stuff certainly lends to character progression.

I do 100% agree with the lack of squad member armor customization. Huge oversight.

Modifié par nicodeemus327, 09 février 2010 - 09:55 .


#57
nicodeemus327

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TJSolo wrote...

I wasn't talking about a specific game, simply because you would try to rationalize and nitpick any example just to make the statement valid for ME2.
My statement was pointed directly at the scope of your "assuming the role" argument.
Using your "assuming the role" idea, it can be logically applied to other games that are not RPGs.
Assuming a role is the principle notion in most games; even sports games have career mores where you assume the role of a player and skill progression.


I completely agree with you. However, that doesn't place all of those games into the RPG genre.

#58
jienoma

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nicodeemus327 wrote...

jienoma wrote...

nicodeemus327 wrote...

jienoma wrote...

The rules of an RPG game are well established, not an amout of casual rules that the developer put in the game, skill progression, levels, itemization just to name a few. ME2 could be still an action rpg with a decent itemization, but now is more of a TPS with a good story, disjointed from the first episode and divided in a set of episodes.


There's many different types of RPGs. It's a very broad genre. Also skill progression, levels, and itemization all exists in ME2.


Itemization not at all, unless you're counting the 2 weapons per set and the few almost aesthetical armor, and it lacks of itemization for your party too. Level progression and skills are so thin that's almost hard to see at all, 5 skills per character is not what i call a deep skill progression.


Those weapons are itemization. ME2 has more weapons with unique play styles. The same goes for the armor. The choices there (at least for shep) are more then just cosmetic. I will agree with you about the skills but there's a big reason for that. ME2 is a ton more squad centric in its combat. Don't just right these things off just because they aren't in ME1. All of that stuff certainly lends to character progression.


I agree that we disagree :)

#59
nicodeemus327

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jienoma wrote...

I agree that we disagree :)


So its not enough character progression? Do you agree to that?

#60
Killian Kalthorne

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Nico, it is as much a CRPG as Diablo is. The game is primarily a shooter, a Gears of War knock-off with minimal role play elements put in. As for the OP IU agree with wholeheartedly.

#61
Zhaocore

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You guys ruined a great thread. =/

#62
Eain

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1. Exploration

  A large part of the appeal of space is
the utter massiveness of it.   It speaks to something deep in our
psyche, the sense that it is too grand and wonderful to truly grasp.  
Say what you want about the Mako sequences of the original Mass Effect,
but they gave the game a sense of scope that is missing in this one. 
There was a certain elegance, a lonely grandeur to being the only
living thing on a distant unknown planet.  I also think that we as
gamers like the sense of freedom, of not always being railroaded to our
destination. The key change should have been to add variety to these
planets, not cut them altogether.


Disagree. The Mako
sequences were the main gripe about the original ME. Bioware took them
out, and now suddenly people ask why it was removed. It was removed
because it was horrible, simple as. You know which Mako mission gave me
the feeling you described? The Luna one. And you know why? Because
it was the only planet not littered with mountains that looked like
they were drawn by a three year old with muscle spasms.

2. Story

The
story of the original Mass Effect was an extremely well done, if
predictable, affair.  But at least there was a story.  In Mass Effect
2, the endgame is clearly visible from the very beginning.  What
followed in the subsequent hours can only be described as a giant
intergalectic Pokemon quest, 30 some-odd hours of collecting and
powering up characters.  From a lesser studio we would have no reason
to complain, but Bioware has such a long history of fascinating tales
that I can only wish they had been more ambitious.  The game moved in
fits and starts, largely because each quest was a discrete mission with
no bearing on the overall goal.


Again, have to disagree. The story of the original ME suffered from a plothole of extraordinary size, namely...

*SPOILERS*
...
the Conduit simply being a backdoor to the Citadel. Saren did not need
this. He could've just signalled Sovereign and the Geth to attack a
completely unprepared Citadel, he'd have walked into the Citadel tower
with some Asari commandos and Matriarch Benezia and voila, Sovereign
would've reprogrammed the Citadel's relay functionality and the
invasion would've commenced. Instead, Saren risked everything to find a
backdoor to a place he already had access to and managed to not only
raise the suspicion of the Alliance at the most critical time, but also
lost his most valuable non-synthetic ally in the process, namely
Benezia and her followers.
*SPOILERS*

3. Relationships

Bioware
has become adept at the dialogue of seduction.  In fact, they have
become so comfortable with this formula that we can now seduce and
romance no less than seven characters.  However, they have proven to be
shockingly tone deaf when it come to dealing with characters already in
relationships.  In life, as in most art, relationships become truly
interesting after a couple has hooked up, when one finds all
the hidden flaws and unxepected delights that had been previously
hidden.  The fact that no dialogue was included even acknowledging your
previous relationship is quite frankly unforgivable.  Presumably the
writers were trying to show a rocky part of the relationship, but even
fights and hurt feelings would have preferable to this.


Your previous relationship, quite frankly, had no real depth. It was a one night stand. It could've been more, sure, but then the game decided to end. There are no hints throughout the beginnings of ME2 or the endings of ME1 that it was ever anything more than that. Sure, my Shepard didn't romance anyone this time around because it simply seemed unnecessary. It seemed more logical in ME1 actually.

4.  Simplicity

I
hesitate to include this because it was quite obviously the dev's
mantra while making this game.  But they took an ideal and ran a little
to far with it.  Penny Arcade made an apt comparison to Deus Ex 2,
another game that streamlined a bit too much.  Thankfully we console
owners are more forgiving than our PC brethren, who view any retreat
from complexity as a form of apostasy.  But there is precious little
role playing in this role playing game.  One of the great features of
RPG's is that as the challenge progresses, your toolbox of skills
expands accordingly.  In Mass Effect 2 my strategy was pretty much the
same at level 3 as it was at 23.


Partially agree, partially disagree. At the beginning of the game as a soldier, my tactics involved finding cover and shooting stuff. Towards the end of the game as a soldier, my tactics involved tearing down the shields and armor on enemies so that one party member could use a mass pull while another would detonate a warp in the middle of a group of flying enemies. And that's just one example. I actually think that in terms of immersiveness, it matters absolutely nothing whether you have a complex attribute system combined with an extensive inventory. That's pure gameplay. A roleplaying game is supposed to make me play a role, and in ME2 I was Commander Shepard more than I was any other character in any other game I've ever played before this. And that's not even an exaggeration.

5. Immersion

This one
is the most difficult to define, but it is also by far the most
important.  In one sense it is an amalgamation of the previous four
items, and something else entirely.  It is believability. When a
character who professed fierce devotion to me last game can't seem to
recall that anything happened, it snaps me out my immersion. When the
dev's can be bothered to include both genders of a species, I stop and
wonder why.  When cities resemble not so much livible entities, but
rather meticulously designed corridors to shuttle us to our next
checkpoint, it breaks my immersion.  When the only house on Omega is
the one I am looking for, I feel like stopping and doing something
else.  This is one reason I enjoyed Assassin's Creed, despite the dev's
apparent neglect to include an actual gameplay mechanism.  It just felt like I was really in 10th-century Palestine.  Believablility should never be sacrificed on the altar of expediency.


But this has always been Bioware. Again I am forced to disagree. You refer to a specific companion help quest with your house on Omega example and I know exactly what you mean. But that little area you are in, is not all of Omega. You know where I get my immersion from? A quick peak through the panoramic window in one of the Zakera Ward's staircases, looking out over one of the Ward arms. The puffs of flame coming from industrial chimney's on Omega. The little shops and stands there, or the Vorcha huddled around flaming barrels like bums under railway tunnels in New York City. There is plenty immersion but it is not found in the layout of an area. It is found in the careful attention to aesthetic detail.

All
games are just nuts and bolts under the surface, but the truly great
ones make efforts to hide these in a seamless gameplay experience. 
Mass Effect 2, by virtue of packing everything into neat, discretely
contained particles, draws attention to these inner mechanisms.  After
one character I know everything I need to do to obtain the loyalty or
pursue a romance with anyone remaining on my team.  It is is a
kinetically enjoyable, but rather soulless, experience.  It has the
feel of something that has been thinktanked to death, and any
subsequent shards of genius polished off as well.  It falls just short
of that illusive quality we like to label as 'art'.


Well, that wraps it up then. We are in disagreement :P Mass Effect 2, to me, is art in every sense of the word. The ending of the game takes cinematic videogaming to a whole new level. The beginning of the game wastes no time drawing you back into a universe that took two years to wait for a sequel. Yes there are visible gameplay elements. The top responses are always Paragon. The bottom responses are always renegade. We know this. But it doesn't matter as far as I'm concerned. You get the same from movies, in for example scenes where someone picks up a phone call and responds to everything through affirmation: 'Yes, I am going to the hospital'. 'Yes, I did the groceries.' These mechanics are no less obvious than the ones in Mass Effect, but we know they are there because they serve the purpose of not leaving the viewer/player in the dark.

Modifié par Eain, 09 février 2010 - 10:09 .


#63
TJSolo

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nicodeemus327 wrote...

TJSolo wrote...

I wasn't talking about a specific game, simply because you would try to rationalize and nitpick any example just to make the statement valid for ME2.
My statement was pointed directly at the scope of your "assuming the role" argument.
Using your "assuming the role" idea, it can be logically applied to other games that are not RPGs.
Assuming a role is the principle notion in most games; even sports games have career mores where you assume the role of a player and skill progression.


I completely agree with you. However, that doesn't place all of those games into the RPG genre.


For a game to be marketed as an RPG doesn't make it a RPG.
If you just want to say that BW/EA calls it an RPG and that makes it an RPG then I can't argue with the fact that is what the companies are calling it.
All players can discuss is what they think about it and why.

To me it is a TPS with light RPG elements, since no other category exists for it to fit.

#64
nicodeemus327

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Killian Kalthorne wrote...

Nico, it is as much a CRPG as Diablo is. The game is primarily a shooter, a Gears of War knock-off with minimal role play elements put in. As for the OP IU agree with wholeheartedly.


And? The same thing could be said about ME1. However ME1 had a bunch of just terrible features. You don't really like having to sort through hundreds of the same type of weapon, armor, ammo, etc?

#65
Killian Kalthorne

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All they had to do is remove the I-X aspects and I would have been fine.

#66
nicodeemus327

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TJSolo wrote...

nicodeemus327 wrote...

TJSolo wrote...

I wasn't talking about a specific game, simply because you would try to rationalize and nitpick any example just to make the statement valid for ME2.
My statement was pointed directly at the scope of your "assuming the role" argument.
Using your "assuming the role" idea, it can be logically applied to other games that are not RPGs.
Assuming a role is the principle notion in most games; even sports games have career mores where you assume the role of a player and skill progression.


I completely agree with you. However, that doesn't place all of those games into the RPG genre.


To me it is a TPS with light RPG elements, since no other category exists for it to fit.


A game with light RPG elements is still an RPG.

#67
Fred_MacManus

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periaqueductal_gray wrote...

All games are just nuts and bolts under the surface, but the truly great ones make efforts to hide these in a seamless gameplay experience.  Mass Effect 2, by virtue of packing everything into neat, discretely contained particles, draws attention to these inner mechanisms.  After one character I know everything I need to do to obtain the loyalty or pursue a romance with anyone remaining on my team.  It is is a kinetically enjoyable, but rather soulless, experience.  It has the feel of something that has been thinktanked to death, and any subsequent shards of genius polished off as well.  It falls just short of that illusive quality we like to label as 'art'.


Absotively, posilutely true. I concur, 100%.

#68
nicodeemus327

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Killian Kalthorne wrote...

All they had to do is remove the I-X aspects and I would have been fine.


That's what upgrades effectively do.

Going from Phoenix Armor VII  to Phoenix Armor VIII is a 5% (example number) upgrade to armor and shields.

#69
Killian Kalthorne

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nicodeemus327 wrote...
A game with light RPG elements is still an RPG.


No.

#70
Killian Kalthorne

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nicodeemus327 wrote...

Killian Kalthorne wrote...

All they had to do is remove the I-X aspects and I would have been fine.


That's what upgrades effectively do.

Going from Phoenix Armor VII  to Phoenix Armor VIII is a 5% (example number) upgrade to armor and shields.


Yet you cannot let one of your squad wear them.

#71
nicodeemus327

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Killian Kalthorne wrote...

nicodeemus327 wrote...

Killian Kalthorne wrote...

All they had to do is remove the I-X aspects and I would have been fine.


That's what upgrades effectively do.

Going from Phoenix Armor VII  to Phoenix Armor VIII is a 5% (example number) upgrade to armor and shields.


Yet you cannot let one of your squad wear them.


And I agree this is a failing. However, a number of upgrades apply to the entire squad.

It's the nearly the exact same thing as ME 1 with the item management bullcrap removed.

Modifié par nicodeemus327, 09 février 2010 - 10:20 .


#72
Jaymo147

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As posted before:



Posted Image

#73
mhendon

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I totally agree with everything you said op. Havn't heard it said better.

#74
Killian Kalthorne

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nicodeemus327 wrote...
And I agree this is a failing. However, a number of upgrades apply to the entire squad.

It's the nearly the exact same thing as ME 1 with the item management bullcrap removed.


Nearly the same is not the same.  There is only a 3% genetic difference between a human and a chimpanzee.  Our genetic code is nearly the same.  Obviously we aren't the same.  In ME1 all the upgrades and equipment can be used by the squad.  If that means there needs to be item management in the game then I am all for it.  You see, I am a RPG player.  Not a shooter player.

#75
Rayne Myria Solo

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Asguardwolf wrote...

was a bit easy ME2 didnt really get into it managed to romance all the female characters in the same game dump one pick another and also according to my Save Game only took just over 4 hours to complete the game from rebirth to end kinda sucked expected a couple of days of entertainment. At least ME1 gave me a few days of enjoyment


I can't even touch this...I don't think I could get off Omega in 4 hours...in fact, I know I didn't. I can't imagine being able to finish in 4 hours, even if I jumped through the relay as soon as the game started...this post is full of fail, you missed 95% of the game...I can't imagine what it'd be like doing other activities with you if you rush to the goal like that *chuckles*