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The five flaws of Mass Effect 2


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#126
nicodeemus327

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Killian Kalthorne wrote...

nicodeemus327 wrote...

Killian Kalthorne wrote...

The core of a CRPG is exploring new places, killing what lives there, getting experience for it, and liberally looting their homes and corpses. A solid story and plot is just icing on the cake.


All of this is in ME2.

Really?  So tell me where I can go to sell all my loot?  Also, tell me, what corpses did you loot.  I wasn't able to loot a single corpse.


You never said anything about selling and I've admited it is a flaw. Also, I've looted plenty of dudes for their thermal clips. You do get plenty of loot in this game. Take a look at the upgrade menu and count.

#127
sirandar

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Agreed,  you share my impressions very closely

#128
Dancemasterer

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I'm loving ME 2, but I do admit I had to get over a lot of disappointment when I found out I'd be shooting things at 30 hours played with the same weapon I was shooting things with at 3. There's also a distinct lack of different types of armour imo, it would be nice for it to have a bit more impact rather than giving me say, 14% more shields instead of 6% more health and 10% more ammo.

Overall I think the whole cover and shoot combat system is fairly underdeveloped, enemies can magically track me with their fire when I'm moving around behind cover where they should in reality not be able to see me, and it seems a bit lacking to me that you can only either be taking cover, or shooting but completely exposing yourself - some kind of blind fire or other added twist would have been nice.
I've also had a bit of frustration stem from the fact that the game lags on picking up on me turning 90 degrees, so that I take cover against a wall right in the line of fire rather than sprinting along it to get out of said line sometimes.


But truth be told, I still enjoy the combat immensely. Obliterating things especially through combos of biotic/biotic abilities ROCKS! Levitating a poor sob with one of my squadmates and then whamming him into 2 of his buddies with my Charge at 100 km/h is... rad.


To me personally though, this game is just fantastic in spite (or including) the above because of the dozens of settings to explore. I especially enjoyed how BioWare built settings within settings, especially the whole Illum -> Illum Spaceport -> Illium... tower? -> Illium shipping yard and so on. I had nothing but pure joy going through all these different places in one city and seeing how they were all part of well, the city, but all had had dozens of little differences appropriate to them. Nevermind the fantastic Praga (my personal favourite), Omega, Tuchanka; for a lack of memory ship graveyard place etc.
Even the side missions were very interesting to me because I found that they were basically little sandboxes for showcasing very different settings for fights, be they tight corridors in a factory, or the one with a bit of verticality thrown in (the Blood Pack one, some mine or something?), or the awesome foggy swamp world one.
I really can't praise that stuff enough.

That and the fact that I love my squadmates. Started out thinking "ah yeah, I like this guy and that guy, so I'll just do the whole game with them," which is actually what I did in Mass Effect 1 and always kind of regretted, I admit every single one of them grew on me; some of them did this with their recruiting missions already, and others with their mostly superb loyalty missions. I really don't have a single character I dislike because they bore me, rather they all intrigue (or intrigued) me for who they are.

So in effect I suppose I disagree with the Exploration and Immersion points, and somewhat with the Story one - at first I was like "wait, one mission and that's the game?" but as far as I'm concerned ME 2's story isn't 'Omega 5 relay, **** blows up,' more a fantastic Space Opera novel with a sequel. I think you have to chalk everything you go through up on the board to Story, as opposed to Story and Gotta catch 'em all, which is what at least it appears like it was done in the OP.


Random collection of colour:
:crying::o:devil::(:police:<3:sick::ph34r::wizard:-_-:innocent:

This place is so gray and drab.

Modifié par Dancemasterer, 10 février 2010 - 12:13 .


#129
Killian Kalthorne

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The game never spoke to me and told me "USE THIS WEAPON." Depending on the character I would change the load out of the weapons. Typically I would give Tali and Liara highly accurate weapons. Kaiden and Garrus would would get weapons that are more even. Wrex and Ashley would get the weapons with high rate of fire and damage. My weapon load out would depend on what class I am playing. I would also shift the upgrdes accordingly. Such as Tali would often get the most accurate sniper rifle with explosive ammo, with mods that would boost accuracy first then damage. I kept her hanging in the back doing one shot one kill on enemies that approach my position.

Of course you probably say that is not a meaningful decision, eh Nico.

Modifié par Killian Kalthorne, 10 février 2010 - 12:09 .


#130
Nozybidaj

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I actually liked the new way they handled inventory. The only thing it lacked was options. More, they need more full sets of armor, not built like the DLC but pieces of it to collect and put together, and where you can either not wear or hide the helmet. More guns where one isn't an obvious upgrade from the last, not too many but enough to at least make me have to consider which one to take for more than 5 seconds. More casual clothing in case, you know, I don't want to look like a Cerberus drone or a homeless colonist. More than 2 options for patterns to lay over the armor. More colors.



Just more of all of it.

#131
Mr.Skar

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Well said OP. Gotta say, I disagree. I'm going to refrain from rehashing what others have already said but I still have some points I want to hit on. Most of these are personal preferences though, so feel free to ignore them.



The story/plot didn't bother me in the least. While I wasn't wowed by the tale, I can see what the purpose of it was. ME2 has "middle of the trilogy" syndrome. It can't resolve the Big Conflict yet, but it still has to expand on the world and give your main guy/gal something to do. Not an easy task. In my opinion, it did a good job. Good but not great.



On the Mako, I kinda miss it as well. But only kinda, and in the end what I really miss about it is the exploration. While the worlds and settings we have now are more vibrant and alive, I want to be able to find things in them. Hopefully the Hammerhead DLC will change this.



In terms of the combat, I don't think it's bad. I just think that if we're gonna have some Gears in our Mass Effect then we need to rip the cover system off all the way. Better movement in and out of cover would help, and vehicular combat would rule.



I agree on the mission summary screen though, don't really care for that.



I can't stress any further that this is my opinion. Nowhere do I say or imply that this is fact, that my way is the only way, or anything else like that. I'm just one of the people who has no problem with where ME is going. I have no problem with where it's been either, and if BioWare sticks with this format and refines it, great. Still eager to see what ME3 has to offer.

#132
nicodeemus327

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Killian Kalthorne wrote...

The game never spoke to me and told me "USE THIS WEAPON." Depending on the character I would change the load out of the weapons. Typically I would give Tali and Liara highly accurate weapons. Kaiden and Garrus would would get weapons that are more even. Wrex and Ashley would get the weapons with high rate of fire and damage. My weapon load out would depend on what class I am playing. I would also shift the upgrdes accordingly. Such as Tali would often get the most accurate sniper rifle with explosive ammo, with mods that would boost accuracy first then damage. I kept her hanging in the back doing one shot one kill on enemies that approach my position.

Of course you probably say that is not a meaningful decision, eh Nico.


You can make similar if not the same decisions for weapons in ME2. I know I did. Different weapons behaved differently. Some had a higher rate of fire. Same had better accuracy and dmage. Different ammo types didn't go away.

#133
Dancemasterer

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Ah I almost forgot about the Mission Summary Screen, that thing is a blight yes. Pretty terrible (and why oh why does it exist?!), true.

#134
jienoma

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nicodeemus327 wrote...

jienoma wrote...

nicodeemus327 wrote...

jienoma wrote...

I know we have had a very bad experience with ME1 and even DA:O, i don't find trash loot to be fun at all, i've spent countless time in my RPG and even MMORPG gamer life selecting usefull loot to keep and trash loot to thrown away because i had no more space in my inventory.
There is a more practical way, imho, to handle the problem instead of hacking the inventory from a game, less loot and better interface.


I feel that's what ME2 has develiered. You loot/buy weapon and armor upgrades. Certainly cuts the amount of loot down. I guess it was too much?


For what it concerns me, yes :) there is always a middle way, latins said "in medio stat virtus" that means "the virtue is in the middle". You still loot an amount of 1 pistol, why not 4 or 5, why not give the opportunity to have even small differences between weapons and armors in damage/defence stats, but very different appearance?

Why not give some trash loot to sell for extra cash, in my first playtrough i've missed something, and thanks the lack of backtracking, i couldn't be able to buy all the upgrades i saw.
They don't want to reintroduce trash loot or whatever we want to call it, why not to give us the opportunity to sell some minerals, given the fact they'll change a bit the whole mining system that is pretty boring.



Let me ask you another question. Does having five pistols that behave nearly the same add anything? So many of the weapons in ME1 had no noticeable differences. The only reason you used one over the other was becasue the game told you to. The decision wasn't meaningful.

Personally, I think not selling stuff is a potential flaw (not huge but still there). In fact, its one of the two things that I feel are missing from ME1.


Well to say the truth, in ME1 when you change a weapon you do it because of the dmg stats, how many shots you can take before the weapon overheat and accuracy rating, the whole loot system works like DA:O, you get 2 or 3 levels and you'll find an appropriate armor or weapon that's better than the one you had. Plust the occasional very good weapon or armor that makes the difference, and looting that, is rewarding.

Having 3 or 4 SMG in MW2 or name an fps here, is rewarding? Can be, if one of them is less accurate to the long range, but more powerfull at the short distance. You can mix accuracy, damage, range at pleasure giving the player the opportunity to adapt the game at his playstile, and tastes. Better than having the same SMG the whole game, or not?

#135
Killian Kalthorne

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nicodeemus327 wrote...
You can make similar if not the same decisions for weapons in ME2. I know I did. Different weapons behaved differently. Some had a higher rate of fire. Same had better accuracy and dmage. Different ammo types didn't go away.


Yet, we couldn't do so with the armor. 

The ammo types became class skills WHICH IS STUPID! 

#136
sirandar

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Some people missed the character progression in ME2. Personally, for this game I did not.

In ME1 you were an elite soldier who couldn't shoot straight at the beginning. At least in ME2 you where powerful right from the beginning despite being almost dead. In ME1 your team took down Saren, and every member of your team was probably more powerful than you are in ME2.

ME2 gave fairly compelling battles right from the onset. If you progressed much more it would be a cakewalk. ME2 was designed to limit the use of your powers so you had to think about how you used them. I liked that. It also have some of the collectors quite a lot of powers. It was difficult to outrun some of their shockwave attacks and playing on hardcore I had to run around a lot,  effectively use cover,  and use hand to hand just to keep alive.  Alot of thought went into ME2 combat IMO.

What was missing in ME2 was the sense of RPG freedom, choice and impact.  However, that didn't really take much away from the game as I don't think it was meant to be an RPG anyway.  How I think of it is: Bioware  sacrified RPG freedom replacing it with relatively short, potent, well crafted situations with limited freedom of choice but good dramatic impact.  That is about the best you can do with the Paragon-Renegade system.

Paragons and Renegades are very similar yet opposite creatures.  They only respond to a situation in pre-defined way and there isn't  much freedom of choice for either.

Modifié par sirandar, 10 février 2010 - 12:35 .


#137
nicodeemus327

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jienoma wrote...

Having 3 or 4 SMG in MW2 or name an fps here, is rewarding? Can be, if one of them is less accurate to the long range, but more powerfull at the short distance. You can mix accuracy, damage, range at pleasure giving the player the opportunity to adapt the game at his playstile, and tastes. Better than having the same SMG the whole game, or not?


I felt the weapon in ME2 played differently. Each weapon had a little something that made it unique.

#138
nicodeemus327

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Killian Kalthorne wrote...

nicodeemus327 wrote...
You can make similar if not the same decisions for weapons in ME2. I know I did. Different weapons behaved differently. Some had a higher rate of fire. Same had better accuracy and dmage. Different ammo types didn't go away.


Yet, we couldn't do so with the armor. 

The ammo types became class skills WHICH IS STUPID! 


You can do it with shepard. The armor customization is similar to armor mods in ME1. Like I've said I 100% agree it not applying to the entire party. Huge oversight.

Why do you think ammo types as class skills are stupid?

#139
Killian Kalthorne

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Ammo types are due to the materials installed into the weapon, hence in ME1 there was a mod slot for it. No amount of "skill" will make a gun magically shoot incendiary rounds.

#140
EternalWolfe

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Another thought to go along with the point about the inventory being good and just needing to be fleshed out a bit with more parts. I saw someone argueing that one of their problems was they couldn't loot people.

First of all, I find this rather odd. I mean, I'm a former Alliance Soldeir and Spectre, I'm working for someone who just blasted millions in bringing back from the dead, and I'm going to pick up some random mercs gun because it might be better?

Second, if you were to increase the number of items in the current inventory, you could kill two birds with one stone. Several times you come across 'bosses'(they're named, you can't miss them). Scanning their stuff could be very useful, i mean, are you telling me the higher ranking officers in the Blue Suns don't have modded armor/weapons i could scan, then recreate in the fabricator in the Normandy armory? I think it'd be a good way to do looting and still make sense in the world.

Edit: Killian, don't forget the world your in.  Its quite possible the effects are being generated by the guns themselves, rather then the ammo.  You notice to activate them, you press a button the gun?  Why its class based . . . that I have no idea.

I do agree it'd be nice if weapons were modular like armor and you could replace the ammo block with a block of different material for different effects.

Modifié par EternalWolfe, 10 février 2010 - 12:32 .


#141
LittleDoggie

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nicodeemus327 wrote...

Asguardwolf wrote...

was a bit easy ME2 didnt really get into it managed to romance all the female characters in the same game dump one pick another and also according to my Save Game only took just over 4 hours to complete the game from rebirth to end kinda sucked expected a couple of days of entertainment. At least ME1 gave me a few days of enjoyment


You missed about 90% of the game if you only got 4 hours out of it.


Indeed ... 4 hours? .... Theres about 30+ hours of game play if you do all the squad missions etc.. You didnt even really play the game all that much so u have very little credibility. As far as Im concerend its one of the best games ever made. Ive played it thru 4 times now and I only lost jack on one of the play thru's.

#142
sedrikhcain

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periaqueductal_gray wrote...

The excellence of Mass Effect 2 has been well documented.  A quick perusal of Game Rankings reveals a littany of celebratory reviews, for the most part well deserved.  A lesser product would not be worth this type of analysis.  But usually negative feedback is considerably more valuable than positive, so here we go:

1. Exploration

  A large part of the appeal of space is the utter massiveness of it.   It speaks to something deep in our psyche, the sense that it is too grand and wonderful to truly grasp.   Say what you want about the Mako sequences of the original Mass Effect, but they gave the game a sense of scope that is missing in this one.  There was a certain elegance, a lonely grandeur to being the only living thing on a distant unknown planet.  I also think that we as gamers like the sense of freedom, of not always being railroaded to our destination. The key change should have been to add variety to these planets, not cut them altogether.

2. Story

The story of the original Mass Effect was an extremely well done, if predictable, affair.  But at least there was a story.  In Mass Effect 2, the endgame is clearly visible from the very beginning.  What followed in the subsequent hours can only be described as a giant intergalectic Pokemon quest, 30 some-odd hours of collecting and powering up characters.  From a lesser studio we would have no reason to complain, but Bioware has such a long history of fascinating tales that I can only wish they had been more ambitious.  The game moved in fits and starts, largely because each quest was a discrete mission with no bearing on the overall goal. 

3. Relationships

Bioware has become adept at the dialogue of seduction.  In fact, they have become so comfortable with this formula that we can now seduce and romance no less than seven characters.  However, they have proven to be shockingly tone deaf when it come to dealing with characters already in relationships.  In life, as in most art, relationships become truly interesting after a couple has hooked up, when one finds all the hidden flaws and unxepected delights that had been previously hidden.  The fact that no dialogue was included even acknowledging your previous relationship is quite frankly unforgivable.  Presumably the writers were trying to show a rocky part of the relationship, but even fights and hurt feelings would have preferable to this. 

4.  Simplicity

I hesitate to include this because it was quite obviously the dev's mantra while making this game.  But they took an ideal and ran a little to far with it.  Penny Arcade made an apt comparison to Deus Ex 2, another game that streamlined a bit too much.  Thankfully we console owners are more forgiving than our PC brethren, who view any retreat from complexity as a form of apostasy.  But there is precious little role playing in this role playing game.  One of the great features of RPG's is that as the challenge progresses, your toolbox of skills expands accordingly.  In Mass Effect 2 my strategy was pretty much the same at level 3 as it was at 23. 

5. Immersion

This one is the most difficult to define, but it is also by far the most important.  In one sense it is an amalgamation of the previous four items, and something else entirely.  It is believability. When a character who professed fierce devotion to me last game can't seem to recall that anything happened, it snaps me out my immersion. When the dev's can be bothered to include both genders of a species, I stop and wonder why.  When cities resemble not so much livible entities, but rather meticulously designed corridors to shuttle us to our next checkpoint, it breaks my immersion.  When the only house on Omega is the one I am looking for, I feel like stopping and doing something else.  This is one reason I enjoyed Assassin's Creed, despite the dev's apparent neglect to include an actual gameplay mechanism.  It just felt like I was really in 10th-century Palestine.  Believablility should never be sacrificed on the altar of expediency. 

All games are just nuts and bolts under the surface, but the truly great ones make efforts to hide these in a seamless gameplay experience.  Mass Effect 2, by virtue of packing everything into neat, discretely contained particles, draws attention to these inner mechanisms.  After one character I know everything I need to do to obtain the loyalty or pursue a romance with anyone remaining on my team.  It is is a kinetically enjoyable, but rather soulless, experience.  It has the feel of something that has been thinktanked to death, and any subsequent shards of genius polished off as well.  It falls just short of that illusive quality we like to label as 'art'.


Well, you've put some thought into this, so I'll try to do the same with my 2 cents.

1) Pretty much agree on the space exploration front. I don't really miss the Mako all that much but I didn't hate it either. I think getting rid of planet exploration may have been a case of throwing out the baby with the make bathwater. It would be nice if there were one planet per system that you could explore at surface level without having to get caught up in mountain ranges. Surely there is technology around to make this less tedious than it was in the Mako. I don't consider this a fatal flaw in the game, by any means, but it could be improved.

2) I strongly disagree on this one. I've seen many complain about the story in Mass Effect 2 but I'm just not in that camp. I really think it's great and it fits the traditional format of trilogies. In the middle chapter, the hero's world is thrown into chaos. It is intended to work this way. Things aren't supposed to be nearly as seamless and ordered as in the first chapter. The reason is that you had to wrap things up well in part one to give a satisfying conclusion after introducing the main characters. Now, having done that, you must throw their lives into disarray, so you can put them all back together again once and for all in the conclusion.

I enjoyed meeting the new characters in this one. I cared about them and I felt like the exposition at the beginning reintroduced me to shepard in a very satifying way. The best part, however, was the conclusion. I was totally caught up in the story during the final act. I was concerned not only with the fate of the galaxy but also with the fate of each individual team member. Won't go into details because this is the spoiler-free zone but the decisions they have you make as shepard during the suicide mission really give a sense of personal responsibility for the lives of your team members and crew. Add to that all the new clues linked to the plot and I was thrilled.

3) I'm not sure what you're talking about WRT relationships. The things you say aren't in the game actually are there, to my recollection. Perhaps I'm not reading your post right here.

4) The inventory/level up/skill point system has been streamlined but your toolbox does expand as you progress through the game. You can't customize it as much, though. And I do realize that is driving some people nuts. I can respect that but for me role-playing game means exactly that -- playing a role. and i get that sense from this game more than any other, thanks to the dialogue wheel, the characters and relationships and the immersive sci-fi storyline. So while I would wecome the chance to customize weapons a bit more, it's not really a big deal for me. And I certainly don't want a return to that cumbersome inventory from ME1 (which was a great game, nonetheless).

5) I agree with you hear, sort of, but only to a very limited extent. ME1 was ever so slightly more consistently immersive, IMO, for two reasons: 1) the controls didn't take as long for me to master, so I didn't spend most of my first playthrough figuring out what buttons to push during combat. 2) the collector armor in ME2 covers your face during intense conversation moments. that's just silly. you're trying to make shepard convey emotion and all you is a metal shield. The lack of armor for teammates in space goes along with this. To address your specific points: a) you don't see salarian or krogan women for story reasons. Salarians are mostly male and Krogan women are looked at by the dominant males as breeding machines. I think the choice to keep them out is intentional and underscores some story themes, so good for immersion, not a hindrance to it. B) I made a lot of wrong turns my first time through the game (when not using the arrow). I know my sense of direction isn't the best but it's not like there as only one way to go all the time, so this wasn't really a problem for me. c) Omega is a very small space station w/only one dominant figure. I'm not sure where else on that jellyfish rock you'd want to go.



So there's my take. Thanks for your post.

#143
MassEffect762

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@OP

I have to say that was very accurate of how I felt about the game. *my applause*

#144
sedrikhcain

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Asguardwolf wrote...

was a bit easy ME2 didnt really get into it managed to romance all the female characters in the same game dump one pick another and also according to my Save Game only took just over 4 hours to complete the game from rebirth to end kinda sucked expected a couple of days of entertainment. At least ME1 gave me a few days of enjoyment



so you're saying you completed every available romance and beat the game in a little over 4 hours?

No way.

#145
Starbiter

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Anyone who actually wants to drive the mako around for hours on end on the same planet seriously needs to never play a game again. Mako was worst part of mass effect 1 by far.

#146
Argent Csero

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periaqueductal_gray wrote...

It is a kinetically enjoyable, but rather soulless, experience. 


This is how I felt about ME2 exactly.

I agree with the OPs points exactly. I think they took "streamlined" a little too far.

#147
sedrikhcain

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Asguardwolf wrote...

nope scanned planets did a load of missions on them and followups did all teams loyalty quests did the random pickups in main quests that lead to other quests


Again, no way. If you picked up every character and did each loyalty mission, that alone is 20 or 22 quests, the vast majority of which involve a gun battle. Plus you did planetary exploration and all the side quests. And you did this in 4 hours of game play? Not a chance. The lowest number other than this that I've seen is 22 hours. Most people on here are near or above 40. Even if you one-shot-killed every single enemy, fast-forwarded through every single conversation and stormed with your shepard as much as you possibly could, AND never got killed, it's just not mathematically possible.

#148
jienoma

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EternalWolfe wrote...

Another thought to go along with the point about the inventory being good and just needing to be fleshed out a bit with more parts. I saw someone argueing that one of their problems was they couldn't loot people.

First of all, I find this rather odd. I mean, I'm a former Alliance Soldeir and Spectre, I'm working for someone who just blasted millions in bringing back from the dead, and I'm going to pick up some random mercs gun because it might be better?

Second, if you were to increase the number of items in the current inventory, you could kill two birds with one stone. Several times you come across 'bosses'(they're named, you can't miss them). Scanning their stuff could be very useful, i mean, are you telling me the higher ranking officers in the Blue Suns don't have modded armor/weapons i could scan, then recreate in the fabricator in the Normandy armory? I think it'd be a good way to do looting and still make sense in the world.

Edit: Killian, don't forget the world your in.  Its quite possible the effects are being generated by the guns themselves, rather then the ammo.  You notice to activate them, you press a button the gun?  Why its class based . . . that I have no idea.

I do agree it'd be nice if weapons were modular like armor and you could replace the ammo block with a block of different material for different effects.


That could be a great addition to give rewards for killing a boss, because we have forgotten that killing mobs dont give XP, nothing... nada... niente, have we? :)

#149
sedrikhcain

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jienoma wrote...


RPG is a very large set of rules that define a genre, like a car is a set of parts assembled in a definite way.

Assuming the role of the character you're playing is not playing an RPG, if i play X-Plane i'm assuming the role of a pilot, but i'm not playing an RPG, that's for sure (and it's even much more complex than an RPG).

ME2 lacks not the role playing part, but some of the RPG parts: no itemization, light skills personalization, plus a plethora of other things present in the first episode that needed some tweaking, like planet exploration, not a definitive cut.


This is what RPG means to you. That doesn't mean that's what it means to everyone. It's apparent that a central issue on these forums is that 1) there is cache to having your game deemed an rpg, as opposed to an action game 2) people define rpg in different ways. If you see it as a genre that has to have specific elements established through tradition over time, than ME2 isn't a real rpg. You clearly fall into this camp.

The author of the post to which you're responding, like me, takes rpg to mean just that - rpg. and both legs of the ME franchise live up to this better than pretty much anything else out there.

#150
jienoma

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Starbiter wrote...

Anyone who actually wants to drive the mako around for hours on end on the same planet seriously needs to never play a game again. Mako was worst part of mass effect 1 by far.


Still not worst than that java minigame that eats 3 hours of your life looking for a mineral spike to gather on a rotating planet... fantastic... i'd rather grind a pg from scratch on Ultima Online.

Modifié par jienoma, 10 février 2010 - 12:56 .