244 réponses à ce sujet

[EternalWolfe]

jienoma wrote...

That could be a great addition to give rewards for killing a boss, because we have forgotten that killing mobs dont give XP, nothing... nada... niente, have we?

  Actually, I did.  Nothing but a mission complete screen.  Which sucked, i rather liked the debreifings with all my characters over that.

[sedrikhcain]

jienoma wrote...



Itemization not at all, unless you're counting the 2 weapons per set and the few almost aesthetical armor, and it lacks of itemization for your party too. Level progression and skills are so thin that's almost hard to see at all, 5 skills per character is not what i call a deep skill progression.

just a point of fact: you can customize your armor right down to each limb in ME2, so armor customization is there in spades. I suspect what you really decry is that you can't find said customized armor by looting footlockers and dead aliens -- although i could certainly be wrong.

[Killian Kalthorne]

Shepherd's armor, but no one else's.

Modifié par Killian Kalthorne, 10 février 2010 - 01:09 .

[lumen11]

I agree that there were some missed opportunities in ME2. I don't agree that ME2 is less of a role-playing game than ME1.



ME2 still has an inventory system. It's simply different. Still offers roughly the same amount of effective customisation.



ME2 has more different skills (I do agree that a branching skill system as you level would be nice, but ME1 didn't have that either).



More attention was paid to immersiveness via such things as talking NPCs and squad mate quests.



Romances are better. I agree that they seemed to be avoiding the ME1 romances a little bit. Probably because that was convenient. Don't forget, though, that we are talking about romances that lasted for maybe a week (or 2). It's hardly surprising that people moved on.



The story didn't builld as neatly, but the sub-plots were better.

[sedrikhcain]

[quote]nicodeemus327 wrote...


The core of a CRPG is exploring new places, killing what lives there, getting experience for it, and liberally looting their homes and corpses. A solid story and plot is just icing on the cake.[/quote]


[/quote]




LOL! Å game developer should start a franchise with absolutely no plot, story, charcter interaction, objective or even names for characters. just give people an endless open environment with countless people and places to loot and an endlessly customizable inventory/levelling system. kill,, loot, level up, customize, repeat. ad infinitem.

Just call the game RPG.

Modifié par sedrikhcain, 10 février 2010 - 01:16 .

[jienoma]

sedrikhcain wrote...

jienoma wrote...


RPG is a very large set of rules that define a genre, like a car is a set of parts assembled in a definite way.

Assuming the role of the character you're playing is not playing an RPG, if i play X-Plane i'm assuming the role of a pilot, but i'm not playing an RPG, that's for sure (and it's even much more complex than an RPG).

ME2 lacks not the role playing part, but some of the RPG parts: no itemization, light skills personalization, plus a plethora of other things present in the first episode that needed some tweaking, like planet exploration, not a definitive cut.

This is what RPG means to you. That doesn't mean that's what it means to everyone. It's apparent that a central issue on these forums is that 1) there is cache to having your game deemed an rpg, as opposed to an action game 2) people define rpg in different ways. If you see it as a genre that has to have specific elements established through tradition over time, than ME2 isn't a real rpg. You clearly fall into this camp.

The author of the post to which you're responding, like me, takes rpg to mean just that - rpg. and both legs of the ME franchise live up to this better than pretty much anything else out there.

4.  Simplicity

I hesitate to include this because it was quite
obviously the dev's mantra while making this game.  But they took an
ideal and ran a little to far with it.  Penny Arcade made an apt
comparison to Deus Ex 2, another game that streamlined a bit too much. 
Thankfully we console owners are more forgiving than our PC brethren,
who view any retreat from complexity as a form of apostasy.  But there
is precious little role playing in this role playing game.  One of the
great features of RPG's is that as the challenge progresses, your
toolbox of skills expands accordingly.  In Mass Effect 2 my strategy
was pretty much the same at level 3 as it was at 23.

I wasn't responding directly to the author of the post, but to another poster, but still there is the whole thing about roleplaying, wich we were discussing so far. The shallow skill tree, the lack of some elements that have been used in the last 20 years are, in my opinion, one of the main problem of this game, and the very cause of the lack of role playing as the OP has clearly stated here. And again, ME1 to me is an RPG, ME2 lacks too many elements to be defined as that.

[Killian Kalthorne]

sedrikhcain wrote...
LOL! Å game developer should start a franchise with absolutely no plot, story, charcter interaction, objective or even names for characters. just give people an endless open environment with countless people and places to loot and an endlessly customizable inventory/levelling system. kill,, loot, level up, customize, repeat. ad infinitem.

Just call the game RPG.

A game like that already exists.  Its called Diablo and Diablo 2.  Soon Diablo 3 will be released.

[Mr.Skar]

Killian Kalthorne wrote...

sedrikhcain wrote...
LOL! Å game developer should start a franchise with absolutely no plot, story, charcter interaction, objective or even names for characters. just give people an endless open environment with countless people and places to loot and an endlessly customizable inventory/levelling system. kill,, loot, level up, customize, repeat. ad infinitem.

Just call the game RPG.

A game like that already exists.  Its called Diablo and Diablo 2.  Soon Diablo 3 will be released.

But I like Diablo !

[sedrikhcain]

nicodeemus327 wrote...

Killian Kalthorne wrote...

nicodeemus327 wrote...

Killian Kalthorne wrote...

The core of a CRPG is exploring new places, killing what lives there, getting experience for it, and liberally looting their homes and corpses. A solid story and plot is just icing on the cake.

All of this is in ME2.

Really?  So tell me where I can go to sell all my loot?  Also, tell me, what corpses did you loot.  I wasn't able to loot a single corpse.

You never said anything about selling and I've admited it is a flaw. Also, I've looted plenty of dudes for their thermal clips. You do get plenty of loot in this game. Take a look at the upgrade menu and count.

you loot for upgrades as well. That's actually the main loot, IMO. The clips are more of a game-play mechanic.

But you're never going to win this argument. To some people who consider themselves "hardcore rpg" fans, they just want loot. Lot's of it. And if they don't get it, they will strip the game of the badge of honor of being called an rpg and turn their noses up at it as an "action" game, worse, *GASP* a third-person shooter, which is pretty much the gamer-to-game equivalent of "you throw like a girl" for 4th-grade boys.

So you probably shouldn't waste your time.

[sedrikhcain]

Killian Kalthorne wrote...

sedrikhcain wrote...
LOL! Å game developer should start a franchise with absolutely no plot, story, charcter interaction, objective or even names for characters. just give people an endless open environment with countless people and places to loot and an endlessly customizable inventory/levelling system. kill,, loot, level up, customize, repeat. ad infinitem.

Just call the game RPG.

A game like that already exists.  Its called Diablo and Diablo 2.  Soon Diablo 3 will be released.

I should've known. seriously though, there isn't even character interaction or an objective?

[EnvyXx]

Totally Agree.

[jienoma]

sedrikhcain wrote...

jienoma wrote...



Itemization not at all, unless you're counting the 2 weapons per set and the few almost aesthetical armor, and it lacks of itemization for your party too. Level progression and skills are so thin that's almost hard to see at all, 5 skills per character is not what i call a deep skill progression.

just a point of fact: you can customize your armor right down to each limb in ME2, so armor customization is there in spades. I suspect what you really decry is that you can't find said customized armor by looting footlockers and dead aliens -- although i could certainly be wrong.

Itemization can be done looting or not, depends on how the developers are doing their job in giving some items/weapon/armors. Customizing the colour of 3 piece of armor is, in my opinion, hardly some kind of itemization. By the way, people is still calling for more armor DLC's and weapon DLC's, so that is to me, a clear sign on how many of us miss the lack of something we had even in the first episode.

[bohica01]

ME2 was an excellent game in my opinion with a slightly lackluster ending that didn't include the typical Bioware twist. The first 38 hours of the game were spectacular.



Once again only my opinion, but hey all of your posts are yours as well.

[Killian Kalthorne]

I like shooters as much as I do RPGs, Sedster. Just because I don't consider ME2 a CRPG doesn't mean I think it is a bad game. I think it is a damn good shooter.

[Khendal]

lumen11 wrote...

...
ME2 still has an inventory system. It's simply different. Still offers roughly the same amount of effective customisation.
...

Ohh really ? have i missed something? Where is it? i'have looked for inventory 24/7 and i haven't found after 3 playthrough yet.
 

[sedrikhcain]

jienoma wrote...

sedrikhcain wrote...

jienoma wrote...



Itemization not at all, unless you're counting the 2 weapons per set and the few almost aesthetical armor, and it lacks of itemization for your party too. Level progression and skills are so thin that's almost hard to see at all, 5 skills per character is not what i call a deep skill progression.

just a point of fact: you can customize your armor right down to each limb in ME2, so armor customization is there in spades. I suspect what you really decry is that you can't find said customized armor by looting footlockers and dead aliens -- although i could certainly be wrong.

Itemization can be done looting or not, depends on how the developers are doing their job in giving some items/weapon/armors. Customizing the colour of 3 piece of armor is, in my opinion, hardly some kind of itemization. By the way, people is still calling for more armor DLC's and weapon DLC's, so that is to me, a clear sign on how many of us miss the lack of something we had even in the first episode.

the customized armor selections for shepard offer bonuses to skills. For example, you can choose to augment your speed w/leg upgrades, or your overall toughness or regenerate health, etc. you can't get them all though. you have to choose. that's customization. did you miss this?

I've said before -- and on this thread, no less -- that i'd welcome more customizable weapons and armor. I don't disagree on that at all. It's just not a big deal to me. I'm playing the game for the story, the action and the role play (by that i mean exactly what i say. role play, not genre elements). the only reason i brought up shep's armor customization is because someone said you customize armor, which just isn't true. Shep's armor is more customizable than it was before. You just don't obtain it by looting, which I've come to understand is a BIG drawback for a lot of people.

[jienoma]

sedrikhcain wrote...

jienoma wrote...

sedrikhcain wrote...

jienoma wrote...



Itemization not at all, unless you're counting the 2 weapons per set and the few almost aesthetical armor, and it lacks of itemization for your party too. Level progression and skills are so thin that's almost hard to see at all, 5 skills per character is not what i call a deep skill progression.

just a point of fact: you can customize your armor right down to each limb in ME2, so armor customization is there in spades. I suspect what you really decry is that you can't find said customized armor by looting footlockers and dead aliens -- although i could certainly be wrong.

Itemization can be done looting or not, depends on how the developers are doing their job in giving some items/weapon/armors. Customizing the colour of 3 piece of armor is, in my opinion, hardly some kind of itemization. By the way, people is still calling for more armor DLC's and weapon DLC's, so that is to me, a clear sign on how many of us miss the lack of something we had even in the first episode.

the customized armor selections for shepard offer bonuses to skills. For example, you can choose to augment your speed w/leg upgrades, or your overall toughness or regenerate health, etc. you can't get them all though. you have to choose. that's customization. did you miss this?

I've said before -- and on this thread, no less -- that i'd welcome more customizable weapons and armor. I don't disagree on that at all. It's just not a big deal to me. I'm playing the game for the story, the action and the role play (by that i mean exactly what i say. role play, not genre elements). the only reason i brought up shep's armor customization is because someone said you customize armor, which just isn't true. Shep's armor is more customizable than it was before. You just don't obtain it by looting, which I've come to understand is a BIG drawback for a lot of people.

Believe me it's hard to miss that, i'm not so blind, not at the point to have missed the whole 3 pieces of armor each part of your body with +5% health or +10% ammo
The fact is that in a game, even the superfluous can add something, even 20 pieces of differen armor with bland stats each, with different look, that you can take where you like, whether from loot or not doesn't really matter at this point.
The lack of itemization is clear, this game is not item centric for sure, im not even try to tell you that i don't like item-centric games, wich i really dont, because it's not the point of the discussion, and i've already derailed this thread enough for someone that the last time has written in a forum was for KOTOR2.

More items, more armors, more weapons, omni tools, whatever had the first episode, it has been hacked from the game mercilessly.

Tu cut a long story short, erasing everything considered superfluous at the end can pauperize the whole gaming experience, giving a less rounded feeling to the experience, and the OP has stated exactly that, because everything in this game seems to be on rails, straight through countless numbers of mercs to gather a party, and than before you realize, the game is ended. Deleting everything that was considered not central to the "do mission+kill", instead of tweaking it have reduced the enjoyment that many of us where expecting from someone of the caliber of Bioware. Reducing the Citadel to 3 floors with vendors has facilitated the life of gamers by far, without being thrown around for 30 minutes, searching this vendor or that npc, but at the end wasn't better to exlore the place to see where you've fought the great evil? Or search for another npc you've encountered in the first episode?

Last but not least, don't think i don't like at all ME2, i underline only the points that, to me, have been changed too much or in a way i don't like, there is still a lot of good meat on this game, some party quests were absolutely amazing, thanks to the incredible work that Bioware writers have done in this game, and not only here, the ending was... disappointing to me though, i would have preferred a good evil to fight with a more twisted plot, but overall a good game, not good as the first, wich i still play from time to time.

A pleasure to chat with all of you, plus a good english writing exercise that i seldom do... and considered the 3AM here ... a good night everyone.

[SurfaceBeneath]

Your first point I will give you OP. And three I couldn't care less about. But your second, fourth, and fifth points really all come down to subjective feelings and not actual problems with the game. I for instance found the much more character driven story of Mass Effect 2 more interesting than the rather plot driven story of Mass Effect 1. You place simplicity as something that was flawed about Mass Effect 2, however everything that was simplified made the game much smarter and more natural feeling. And I for one was much more immersed in the game treading about the seedy Omega or fighting my way to the top of the Dantius Towers than I ever was in Mass Effect 1.

[KotOREffecT]

I thought the romance of ME 1 into ME 2, Ashley to be exact, was done well, but could of been done a lil better. I for one now feel a stronger connection to Ash after seeing her on Verizon, not to mention the moments where she was brought up in various convos and the epic email that you get from her that really lets you know she has deep feelings for you. Also the convo with Chambers further confims that. And the pic of her on Sheps desk was a nice touch I thought. At first, I'm not going to lie, I was pissed we were not going to see more of her, but it made sense, and being away from her like I said just makes your connection stronger. I now can't wait until ME 3 to see where it goes.

As far as exploring goes, I do miss the mako and big planets, I also liked quite a few of the N7 missions. What they should do is just combine the both oh them in ME 3. Give up big planets to explore with multiple sidequests on them. Now that would own.

[Malificis]

OP is right on all points.



Assassins Creed was a great comparison. ME2 is a lot better than AC. HOWEVER the population hubs in AC felt so...real. Alive.

[KotOREffecT]

Also Garrus and Tali were very well done, and I mean expanded on greatly in ME 2. Esp Tali though, BioWare took the quite loner from ME 1 who was mysterious and somehow had a big fanbase, and made her much better in ME 2. My main Shep started a great friendship with her in ME 2, and also has an even stronger friendship with Garrus.

[Kmbro90]

 I think this game was mainly to set up everything for Mass Effect 3
I was disappointed with a few things though:
1. I think the romances happened waaaay to fast in this game, it the first one it seem like something you actually had to work at this game it feel like you talk to someone and you have the option. Also lack of romance from the first game. Even if Ashley wasn't a playable character it would have been nice to have a side mission to try to win her back/ re-romance her. 

2. The cities, like the OP said we barley got anything! I was looking forward to running around the Citadel and seeing what has changed instead we get what seems like half of what we got in the first game. What I did like was multiple missions on the same planets, but maybe double up the missions and give twice the content on the planets. 

3. I think the council should have played a bigger role, maybe asked you to betray TIM or something. 

[KotOREffecT]

Kmbro90 wrote...

3. I think the council should have played a bigger role, maybe asked you to betray TIM or something. 

Something tells me were going to be seeing more of the council in ME 3, esp with Shep getting his Spectre status back..

[FlashedMyDrive]

I agree with about 45% of what you said.

[pedal2metal]

I agree with this summary per the OP:

"It is is a kinetically enjoyable, but rather soulless, experience. It has the feel of something that has been thinktanked to death, and any subsequent shards of genius polished off as well."



That being said, I still enjoy ME2.



best regards,

Pedal2Metal