161 réponses à ce sujet

[Eunjuay]

Rainydays wrote...

I just hated that Garrus` armor is still all busted up when you change his outfit.
You already have a character model with him in normal armor from the archangel mission, should have made that the alternative

Agreed

[Khavos]

Warlock Angel22 wrote...

You could easily explain this by saying that all the biotics use a barrier around their bodies that serves the same as sealed suit. All they would need is the breather mask to provide oxygen. Simple enough. What's the problem?

Combat, mostly.  Every biotic in the game with the exception of your idiot squadmates wears body armor into battle. 

[mintcar]

Yeah, though the part about the english on the crates sort of is a part of a bigger problem that was very present even in the first game. Basicly every sapient race in space has the same technology and architecture as humans. There's very little fancyful or alien objects or buildings in these games. It's easy to accept that and just get on with playing the fantastic games, but as you say; more could sure have been done to present a more believable sci-fi world. In the end I think it has to do with contious priorities most of the time. (Though I fail to see what warrants being able to take uncovered partymembers to the migrant fleet without a comment, when they do make you chose whether to take non-humans into the quarantine zone).

[Zanallen]

1. There are no areas of that game in which Shepard brings his squad into a true vacuum. At each point mentioned, the mass effect shields are still enabled and, judging by the presence of sound and gravity, there must be some form of atmosphere, though there may be no air present. There is approximately one sidequest in which your squad would probably need full coverage and that is the hazy planet with all of the giant bugs. I believe the game mentions that there is a toxic atmosphere there...

2. Due to the nature of the weapons in Mass Effect, body armor is all but useless. It is the kinetic barrier that provides the majority of protection. This is also true in ME1 where Jenkins gets taken out by three shots from a probe of all things.

3. The Migrant Fleet. You are confined to a very small portion of the ship and all of the Quarians are in their suits. Plus, Tali makes it a point to request a decontamination team.

[The Demonologist]

Mintcar, as its been said in the original Mass Effect, all the species we see in Council Space have been 'guided' along a specific evolutionary tract. Look at the Citadel, then say, look at Illium. Very artistically similar and yet distinct at the same time.



Body armor -is- useful, just not as useful as we might say that kinetic barriers are. Plus, you need to put the kinetic barriers -in- the armor, and its kind of the 'last ditch' defense.



Your barrier goes out, your down to fighting the last bad guy, and he scores a lucky shot on you. Did your armor prevent harm like a Kinetic Barrier? No. Did it probably stop that shot from entering your body and tearing up those juicy insides? Mmmyep.

[Zanallen]

The Demonologist wrote...

Body armor -is- useful, just not as useful as we might say that kinetic barriers are. Plus, you need to put the kinetic barriers -in- the armor, and its kind of the 'last ditch' defense.

Your barrier goes out, your down to fighting the last bad guy, and he scores a lucky shot on you. Did your armor prevent harm like a Kinetic Barrier? No. Did it probably stop that shot from entering your body and tearing up those juicy insides? Mmmyep.

Ahem, to quote the Mass Effect Wiki: "A mass accelerator propels a solid metal slug using precisely-controlled electromagnetic
attraction and repulsion. The slug is designed to squash or shatter on
impact, increasing the energy it transfers to the target. If this were
not the case, it would simply punch a hole right through, doing minimal
damage.
Accelerator design was revolutionized by element zero.
A slug lightened by a mass effect field can be accelerated to greater
speeds, permitting projectile velocities that were previously
unattainable. If accelerated to a high enough velocity, a simple paint
chip can impact with the same destructive force as a nuclear weapon.
However, mass accelerators produce recoil equal to their impact energy.
This is mitigated somewhat by the mass effect fields that rounds are
suspended within, but weapon recoil is still the prime limiting factor
on slug velocity."


With that sort of velocity, body armor would be all but useless. It would be protection against more conventional weapons and perhaps melee weapons, but it wouldn't be able to stop high velocity rounds that the mass accelerators are capable to putting out. This is why the kinetic barriers were designed in the first place. And who is to say what sort of device is required to construct a personal barrier? Why couldn't this device be attached to a regular outfit? Also, your biotic characters can just make their own.

[Beanstalker]

Just wanted to chime in and say I fully agree with the title of this thread. The game is what it is, so I won't indulge in any of the arguments that are getting posted here.



I am sure there are practical reasons why the designers decided to have squad mates wear the same outfits all the time. After spending over two years in development, I can not help but feel that the end result seems lazy.

[Tankfriend]

Zanallen wrote...
With that sort of velocity, body armor would be all but useless. It would be protection against more conventional weapons and perhaps melee weapons, but it wouldn't be able to stop high velocity rounds that the mass accelerators are capable to putting out. This is why the kinetic barriers were designed in the first place. And who is to say what sort of device is required to construct a personal barrier? Why couldn't this device be attached to a regular outfit? Also, your biotic characters can just make their own.

You've got to note several things concerning the usefulness of armour, though:
a) Every weapon is still severely limited in power by the recoil produced. The infantry weapons that we are carrying around in the game are obviously far from their theoretical maximum firepower. Take the Cain as an example of the potential firepower of mass accelerator weapons - nothing can really protect you against that but it's also far bulkier to probably counter the severe recoil produced by the weapon.
According to the codex armour is still around as a method of protection against injuries - and that can very well include gunshots. And naturally, why should anyone still wear armour if that was not the case?
c) Armour can also protect you from environmental hazards like toxins, extreme temperatures etc. Kinetic barriers and biotic barriers cannot do that.

[Vengeful Nature]

Zanallen wrote...

1. There are no areas of that game in which Shepard brings his squad into a true vacuum. At each point mentioned, the mass effect shields are still enabled and, judging by the presence of sound and gravity, there must be some form of atmosphere, though there may be no air present. There is approximately one sidequest in which your squad would probably need full coverage and that is the hazy planet with all of the giant bugs. I believe the game mentions that there is a toxic atmosphere there...

2. Due to the nature of the weapons in Mass Effect, body armor is all but useless. It is the kinetic barrier that provides the majority of protection. This is also true in ME1 where Jenkins gets taken out by three shots from a probe of all things.

3. The Migrant Fleet. You are confined to a very small portion of the ship and all of the Quarians are in their suits. Plus, Tali makes it a point to request a decontamination team.

1. Sound is present in space throughout the game. The fact that there's sound doesn't prove anything. Gravity is achieved via artificial gravity plating below each deck, so you can be within AG and still be exposed to vacuum. And it's possible that even without AG, Shepard has some sort of magnetic system on his boots, though that's speculation if still logical.

2. I would consider conceding that point to you, but think about this: as offensive technology get's more advanced, so does defensive technology. We wouldn't have kevlar plating if it wasn't for firearms. It's just a natural escalation, and logical to assume that combat hardsuits in the Mass effect universe can withstand a round fired from a standard modern in-universe gun. Making all these points redundant is the fact that combat hardsuits are covered in the me1 codex, including their ceramic/kinetic plating, and non-newtonian fluid is mentioned in the second game. Also, consider this: if what you say is true, why are most mercs and soldiers, not to mention everyone in me1 who was expected to go into combat, wearing suits and not just shield belts?

3. Bacteria spreads very rapidly and through very small spaces. The portion of the ship you are confined to is very bacteria-friendly, with many nooks and crannies, not to mention plants, and besides, quarians are almost always in their suits anyway. It's fairly logical to assume that Tali requests a decon team as a precaution for any potential infections on the surface of their suits. More layers of protection, etc.

[Noktarn]

Laterali wrote...

arch4non wrote...

rmp wrote...

Agreed 100%. I restarted a certain mission to bring a different squadmate because of Miranda's outrageously inappropriate clothing and equipment.

I did the exact same thing, I remember restarting the Collector Ship specifically to switch out Miranda for Thane. Garrus, Grunt, and Thane are pretty much the only acceptable squad mates for space missions.

Though, to be honest I'm not even sure about Garrus since he seems two have two different voice actors.

Thank god I wasn't the only person to notice that Garrus has two different accents in the game. When i heard him say, " I'll be right der!"  I thought i was hearing things. So apparently Garrus is actually from New Jersey of all places, and just hides his accent cause he doesn't want to get teased....

But on topic, and stop me if I'm wrong, but there are no vaccum environments in this game. All of the places have some kind of atmosphere. So I doubt eyes would be popping out. I don't really think this is an issue, since barriers or mass effect generators could easily be an explanation.

Anyone ever see Futurama. The Prof hands out suppositories and The entire crew can walk around on the bottom of the ocean. Thats what is nice about videogames. It doesn't have to be logical to exist.

Hey look a fanboy. What harm would it do to include toggable options such as squad helmets or protective gear? TOGGABLE. Appease the whiners (myself) and appease the fanbois (such as you) who want to justify everything with bionics. It's not JUST a problem with Miranda's clevage, the "non" biotics have the same issues.

[Archereon]

Demigod wrote...

What annoyed me most was the loyalty mission for Tali. I brought Miranda with me onto the supposedly sterile environment of a garden ship. No sealed suit means there is now human bacteria and viri in the environment with plenty of food sources for the bacteria at least to flourish on. She would be responsible for millions of very ill or very dead quarians

You could use the same justification there as talimancers did for talimance, Miranda's human, and doesn't have the same ammino acid structure as Quarians, meaning no disease transmission, so as long as Garrus keeps his helmet on, the ships clean of diseases that could affect quarians, though why Shepard would have to wear his helmet then is beyond me.

[Zanallen]

Vengeful Nature wrote...

1. Sound is present in space throughout the game. The fact that there's sound doesn't prove anything. Gravity is achieved via artificial gravity plating below each deck, so you can be within AG and still be exposed to vacuum. And it's possible that even without AG, Shepard has some sort of magnetic system on his boots, though that's speculation if still logical.

I disagree. In the beginning of ME2, when Shepard is moving through the SR-1, sound and gravity are absent once you reach the breached section of the ship and don't return until you move through the energy field surrounding the cockpit.

2. I would consider conceding that point to you, but think about this: as offensive technology get's more advanced, so does defensive technology. We wouldn't have kevlar plating if it wasn't for firearms. It's just a natural escalation, and logical to assume that combat hardsuits in the Mass effect universe can withstand a round fired from a standard modern in-universe gun. Making all these points redundant is the fact that combat hardsuits are covered in the me1 codex, including their ceramic/kinetic plating, and non-newtonian fluid is mentioned in the second game. Also, consider this: if what you say is true, why are most mercs and soldiers, not to mention everyone in me1 who was expected to go into combat, wearing suits and not just shield belts?

Once again I would like to point out ME1. The probe shots rip through Jenkins' armor like it was nothing. Now, perhaps the hardsuits are designed to protect against injuries, but I think that they are designed more for impacts from biotics or concussive shots...Much like how the hardening mods in ME1 granted extra protection against biotics. The natural escalation to mass accelerator weapons is the inclusion of mass effect kinetic barriers. As for the mercs, can you honestly say that their armor is terribly effective? Once you deplete their barriers or shields, they die with 1-2 shots. Now, I know that this is a game mechanic, but it mimics when Jenkins is shot in ME1.

Also, if you want to get right down to it, there are logical reasons depending on the squadmate for them to not being wearing armor in combat.

3. Bacteria spreads very rapidly and through very small spaces. The portion of the ship you are confined to is very bacteria-friendly, with many nooks and crannies, not to mention plants, and besides, quarians are almost always in their suits anyway. It's fairly logical to assume that Tali requests a decon team as a precaution for any potential infections on the surface of their suits. More layers of protection, etc.

This is true, though what's to say that the area you are in isn't self-contained? Much like having to undergo decontamination whenever entering the Normandy in ME1, this section of the Migrant Fleet could be reserved for receiving alien guests and thus be set up with extensive decontamination processes.

Modifié par Zanallen, 10 février 2010 - 08:20 .

[Jigero]

Zanallen wrote...

1. There are no areas of that game in which Shepard brings his squad into a true vacuum. At each point mentioned, the mass effect shields are still enabled and, judging by the presence of sound and gravity, there must be some form of atmosphere, though there may be no air present. There is approximately one sidequest in which your squad would probably need full coverage and that is the hazy planet with all of the giant bugs. I believe the game mentions that there is a toxic atmosphere there...

2. Due to the nature of the weapons in Mass Effect, body armor is all but useless. It is the kinetic barrier that provides the majority of protection. This is also true in ME1 where Jenkins gets taken out by three shots from a probe of all things.

3. The Migrant Fleet. You are confined to a very small portion of the ship and all of the Quarians are in their suits. Plus, Tali makes it a point to request a decontamination team.

1. It's not the Vaccum that is the problem it's the cold, Legion's loyalty mission to be exact, Your in a derelict space station that has next to zero life support, which legion says directly to you, which means NO HEAT!. Considering half your crew has bare flesh exposed to ice cold temps, they would die of hypothermia in mear minutes.

2. Not true the armor does protect against Slow impact weapons (missles, A Krogan's fist, debry, flak, etc), Temprature weapons (Flame Throwers, Ice weapons, etc) which the sheilds do not, Also hand held weaponsdon't have much more velocity then weapons today, if they had to much, it would knock the shooter as his rear, Also bullets can't even puncture crates, ship hulls, and some glasses.

[massive_effect]

StarMarine wrote...

 I think it ruins a little bit the atmosphere of the game to see Miranda and Jack standing in (almost) space with nothing than their masks and their clothes. I think a hazard, battle or space suit would be quite fitting for many squadmates.:innocent:

Realistic is boring, in this case.

[Thermorium]

[quote]Zanallen wrote...

[quote]Vengeful Nature wrote...

3. Bacteria spreads very rapidly and through very small spaces. The portion of the ship you are confined to is very bacteria-friendly, with many nooks and crannies, not to mention plants, and besides, quarians are almost always in their suits anyway. It's fairly logical to assume that Tali requests a decon team as a precaution for any potential infections on the surface of their suits. More layers of protection, etc.[/quote]

This is true, though what's to say that the area you are in isn't self-contained? Much like having to undergo decontamination whenever entering the Normandy in ME1, this section of the Migrant Fleet could be reserved for receiving alien guests and thus be set up with extensive decontamination processes.

[/quote][/quote]

In Mass Effect ascension, the novel written by Drew Karpyshyn, we learn that asking for a decon team is just standard and is considered te something among the lines of a tradition.

Modifié par Thermorium, 10 février 2010 - 08:37 .

[Finnegone]

I want more realism too! For example, FTL travel is not even theoretically possible (save for some very far-reaching and physics-breaking theories on worm holes). Shepard and the crew should age a few hundred years every time we travel to another solar system.



And seriously, what's the dilly with biotics?

[Zanallen]

Jigero wrote...

1. It's not the Vaccum that is the problem it's the cold, Legion's loyalty mission to be exact, Your in a derelict space station that has next to zero life support, which legion says directly to you, which means NO HEAT!. Considering half your crew has bare flesh exposed to ice cold temps, they would die of hypothermia in mear minutes.

2. Not true the armor does protect against Slow impact weapons (missles, A Krogan's fist, debry, flak, etc), Temprature weapons (Flame Throwers, Ice weapons, etc) which the sheilds do not, Also hand held weaponsdon't have much more velocity then weapons today, if they had to much, it would knock the shooter as his rear, Also bullets can't even puncture crates, ship hulls, and some glasses.

1. No. While it is very cold, your body will not transfer the heat quickly. Please see here: http://imagine.gsfc....ers/970603.html

2. I agree that armor would protect against slower moving projectiles and I believe I mentioned them in one of my posts. Armor would protect against concussive forces and melee attacks. Armor does NOT protect against flamethrowers. In fact, the ingame mechanic is that fire eats through armor. Also, I have destroyed quite a number of crates with my guns. The only crates that aren't are those that you are supposed to use for cover. Ship hulls are quite a bit more protected than personal armor. They are designed to stop missiles and massive laser cannons. The indesctructable glass is either not glass, or merely a noninteractive enviromental set piece.

[Roid Rage Rob]

A game where there are tentace head, all-female aliens, every species speaks english, guns have a small chunk of metal to pull perfectly sized bullets from and never run out, and an ancient race of sentient warships that erase the galaxy's population every 50,000 years... and you're upset because spacesuits for a few characters don't follow your preconception of what they should be. It's a video game, get over it.

[Noktarn]

Roid Rage Rob wrote...

A game where there are tentace head, all-female aliens, every species speaks english, guns have a small chunk of metal to pull perfectly sized bullets from and never run out, and an ancient race of sentient warships that erase the galaxy's population every 50,000 years... and you're upset because spacesuits for a few characters don't follow your preconception of what they should be. It's a video game, get over it.

A video game where people look stupid in certain situations. Toggable helmets JUST LIKE ME-1, for your squad as well.

Did you even play the first one?

Have snipers and common sense just gone out of style in 2 years?

[Forest03]

easternswordman wrote...

Yeh i agree. A large part of Miranda's chest is directly exposed in vaccum space, and it's crazy to figure how she manages to do that.

Futuristic, pressurized implants..? o_O

Sorry. Couldn't resist that one

[Vengeful Nature]

Finnegone wrote...

I want more realism too! For example, FTL travel is not even theoretically possible (save for some very far-reaching and physics-breaking theories on worm holes). Shepard and the crew should age a few hundred years every time we travel to another solar system.

And seriously, what's the dilly with biotics?

Realism in sci-fi that involves space travel usually means everyting outside FTL travel. Non-relativistic travel is essential for plot devices like races against time. Also, it's pretty vital for the sake of causality. By this I mean, if your ship obeys the laws of relativism to the letter, it would be possible to make a round trip and arrive at the place you just left before you left. This plays merry hell with plot, and since the devs made it clear that there is no time travel in their universe, non-relativistic FTL is essential. As for biotics, this was necessary to vary the classes a bit, and there is an in-universe explanation.

The in-universe explanation of FTL is that mass effect drives create bubbles of space time in which the speed of light is significantly higher. So the subjective and objective speeds of light enable faster than light speeds but not time dilation.

The best sci-fi employs a necessary relativity-breaker method for FTL travel to enable interstellar travel and contact with alien species, but everything else in the universe obeys the laws of science (thermodynamics, Newtons laws, etc.) Mass effect 1 was good at that, even if it relied on the codex to explain it all.

My point is really this: Me2 appears to disregard science, or at least not explain why something is possible (like staying alive in a vacuum/extreme environment without a suit) a couple of times. Nothing major, but still... I don't know about anyone else, but this makes me worried about how much the third game is gonna abuse science.

[Nerevar86]

tetracycloide wrote...

vhatever wrote...

If you have some air in your ears it will leave. So what. You don't need air in your ears to survive.

If you have oxygen + warmth, and way to protect your gas exchange in your lungs, you could stay out in space for quite awhile. I don't even remember any missions where my team was truly in space anyway.

Depends on rate of decompression.  Too fast. Eardrums rupture.  Unpleasant.

Warmth not immediately necessary.  Heat loss in true vacuum, minimal.  No surrounding mater.  No conduction.  No convection.  Radiated losses not pressing.

Body needs oxygen.  Pressure also.  Low pressure causes ebullism.  Suits provide pressure.  Oxygen.  Reduce radiation loss. Needs covered.

This.

Am I the only one who saw that Zaeeds ears are uncovered when he is wearing his helmet?

[Noktarn]

This.

Am I the only one who saw that Zaeeds ears are uncovered when he is wearing his helmet?

Dood he just uses biotics, duh. BTW did you know there were aliens in the game, so seriously, why so serious?


Wait... . ....

[Grand_Commander13]

 I love how people try to pull the "lol, why ask for realism in a game with aliens and FTL travel?" line.  Is it so much to ask that the universe make sense within itself?  Shepard and mercenaries see fit to wear armor to protect themselves, but NPCs with no protective abilities that Shepard and the mercs lack are more than happy to fight with nothing but tattoos or pajamas to augment their kinetic barriers.  Oh yes, and these people have no lower survivability than the armored people so the armor is clearly useless.  But mercenaries pay money for it, so it can't be useless.

And don't even try the "Shepard wears armor for the bonuses only" bit: stuff like the off-hand ammo pack and heavy ordnance packs still leave Shepard's arms and legs armored even though the only bonus is to ammo carried.  The armor is, in-universe, first and foremost protective.

[Noktarn]

Grand_Commander13 wrote...

 I love how people try to pull the "lol, why ask for realism in a game with aliens and FTL travel?" line.  Is it so much to ask that the universe make sense within itself?  Shepard and mercenaries see fit to wear armor to protect themselves, but NPCs with no protective abilities that Shepard and the mercs lack are more than happy to fight with nothing but tattoos or pajamas to augment their kinetic barriers.  Oh yes, and these people have no lower survivability than the armored people so the armor is clearly useless.  But mercenaries pay money for it, so it can't be useless.

And don't even try the "Shepard wears armor for the bonuses only" bit: stuff like the off-hand ammo pack and heavy ordnance packs still leave Shepard's arms and legs armored even though the only bonus is to ammo carried.  The armor is, in-universe, first and foremost protective.

Here here!