1769 réponses à ce sujet

[Nautica773]

JamesMoriarty123 wrote...

To include something because it carries political clout is rather wrong tbh. And there will be just as heavy of an adverse politcal reaction as there would be a positive one.
The fact that gay men/gay male romance supporters are an extremely small portion of the playerbase is the biggest argument against the inclusion at this point. I mean why bother to please such a small minority? I don't mean to say that your feelings or views are any less valid but I mean this is only a game afterall, not a civil rights bill.

I don't think BioWare includes it for political clout. I think they include it for a number of other reasons, probably most significant is that they want to.

There was hardly any fervor in Knights of the Old Republic when Juhani was presented as a lesbian romance. I can't recall much debate with Jade Empire either. They garnered hardly any media coverage for these portrayals and to think they're doing it now for different reasons seems unlikely. 

Why do they want to include it, I can not say. To appeal to a wider audience would likely be one, to explore that sort of romance would be another. I don't think they believe they're going to change the world through it's inclusion though, nor do I think they have any notions that it'll have an impact on political legislature. 

At one time, RPGs were a small minority of the gaming population but BioWare still made these games. 

Edit: And can we please stop calling Moriarty a troll. He just has different opinions and is all for meaningful debate.

Modifié par Nautica773, 10 février 2010 - 07:03 .

[JamesMoriarty123]

Temper_Graniteskul wrote...
 So far the only 'reasons' against it that I've seen given are 'I wouldn't like it" and "[My] Shepard isn't gay." And frankly, I've seen fewer people with those opinions here than those who are interested in/do not object to inclusion of m/m romance.

A good reason for the against including it argument is that it simply wouldn't make sense. Not at this late stage. I mean the romance's are built to be fostered through 2 games.
An honest (maybe not PC, but honest) reason to not include it is that the majority of the playerbase are straight males, and including a gay option might make them uncomfortable?

I know that if a man flirted with me, or made a pass at me, I'd feel uncomfortable. Just the way it is.

[YakoHako]

wowpwnslol wrote...

It shouldn't be included. Same sex male romance would be gross for too many people. Just because a minority wants it, doesn't mean Bio should dedicated their time and resources implementing it.

Oh yes, screw minorities.  We GLBTs/blacks/women/latinos/asians/etc, we'll just go sit in the corner while conservative white christian males get everything they want.

[JamesMoriarty123]

YakoHako wrote...

wowpwnslol wrote...

It shouldn't be included. Same sex male romance would be gross for too many people. Just because a minority wants it, doesn't mean Bio should dedicated their time and resources implementing it.

Oh yes, screw minorities.  We GLBTs/blacks/women/latinos/asians/etc, we'll just go sit in the corner while conservative white christian males get everything they want.

Excuse my ignorance, but what does GBLT stand for?

P.S Majority rules. It's the way of the world. It isn't always right, but it's what keeps the world spinning on its axis.

[Endurance_117]

I love how people compare race to sexuality

[JamesMoriarty123]

Nautica773 wrote...

Edit: And can we please stop calling Moriarty a troll. He just has different opinions and is all for meaningful debate.

Cheers man, I put my hands up and say that I have trolled int he past. But only because the "homophobe" and "bigot!" and "closed minded fool" insults were getting thrown around willy nilly.

[Lightice_av]

@Light - The request for you to **** off after mentioning civility was meant be sarcastic. Sorry if you didn't read that into it. But seriously, I'm not flaming you so why flame me?

Consider it a belated thanks to your previous antics. Seeing that I last time saw you swearing that you wouldn't be coming back and starting a thread dedicated to bigotry, you have to agree that seeing you here again wasn't exactly a positive sign. But if you do want to take things civilly, and are actually capable of doing so, we shall see.

As such I didn't even key on the fact there wasn't a m/m romance.

Few would have, if there hadn't been an F/F romance, despite of this. The thing is, if you intend to do something, it's not wise to leave it halfway. If women can have a same-sex romance but men can't, it's a double standard. If Bioware didn't want flak for their decision, they shouldn't have stepped on the route in the first place. Now that they have, it's time for them to show integrity towards their actions.

I mean they could hardly write that Asari can mate with any species and any gender in the Codex and then not let you romance her as FemShep when you can as ManShep.

Really? They clearly could write Jack as bisexual, yet only have her in as a male romance. And make no mistake, the asari were written as omnisexual specifically to provide fanservice. The asari were born out of the idea for an F/F romance option, not vice versa.

[YakoHako]

Endurance_117 wrote...

I love how people compare race to sexuality

Should we just forget the fact that African Americans and homosexuals are minorities that have to fight for the most ****ing simple human rights?

[wowpwnslol]

YakoHako wrote...

wowpwnslol wrote...

It shouldn't be included. Same sex male romance would be gross for too many people. Just because a minority wants it, doesn't mean Bio should dedicated their time and resources implementing it.

Oh yes, screw minorities.  We GLBTs/blacks/women/latinos/asians/etc, we'll just go sit in the corner while conservative white christian males get everything they want.

Yes, pull out that race/sex card. If you wave it hard enough, it might even convince a company that is out to make money to introduce a feature a majority of people wouldn't be interested in or find offensive.

Oh wait...

[John Locke N7]

wowpwnslol wrote...
It shouldn't be included. Same sex male romance would be gross for too many people. Just because a minority wants it, doesn't mean Bio should dedicated their time and resources implementing it.

what a stupid thing to say. so so very very stupid. its so terrible obivous how this statement is stupid. im sorry if this comes off as trolly but come on. read the quote again.

Modifié par John Locke N7, 10 février 2010 - 07:09 .

[Akrim_Drak]

JamesMoriarty123 wrote...

YakoHako wrote...

wowpwnslol wrote...

It shouldn't be included. Same sex male romance would be gross for too many people. Just because a minority wants it, doesn't mean Bio should dedicated their time and resources implementing it.

Oh yes, screw minorities.  We GLBTs/blacks/women/latinos/asians/etc, we'll just go sit in the corner while conservative white christian males get everything they want.

Excuse my ignorance, but what does GBLT stand for?

P.S Majority rules. It's the way of the world. It isn't always right, but it's what keeps the world spinning on its axis.

Gay Bisexual Lesbian Transgender/sexual

I do agree majority rules but 2 of BioWare's past 3 new IPs included male relationships and both were successful. I dunno. The only thing I can think of is they're too worried that the "FPS" crowd will rage or whatever. Is that the truth? None of us know really...

[JamesMoriarty123]

Lightice_av wrote...

@Light - The request for you to **** off after mentioning civility was meant be sarcastic. Sorry if you didn't read that into it. But seriously, I'm not flaming you so why flame me?

Consider it a belated thanks to your previous antics. Seeing that I last time saw you swearing that you wouldn't be coming back and starting a thread dedicated to bigotry, you have to agree that seeing you here again wasn't exactly a positive sign. But if you do want to take things civilly, and are actually capable of doing so, we shall see.

 

The thread I started wasn't dedicated to bigottry at all. The fact that people just didn't like an Anti-Gay option thread must have just rubbed some people the wrong way.

Anyway, go check out the last 20 pages of so of the other thread, get up to speed on where the debate is at.

[Nautica773]

JamesMoriarty123 wrote...

Nautica773 wrote...

Edit: And can we please stop calling Moriarty a troll. He just has different opinions and is all for meaningful debate.

Cheers man, I put my hands up and say that I have trolled int he past. But only because the "homophobe" and "bigot!" and "closed minded fool" insults were getting thrown around willy nilly.

Honestly, I see more people crying troll towards people who just simply disagree it's a little distressing. I have the feeling people are forgetting what a troll actually is.

wowpwnslol wrote...

It shouldn't be included. Same sex male romance would be gross for too many people. Just because a minority wants it, doesn't mean Bio should dedicated their time and resources implementing it.

Actually, it's the minority that would be grossed out by it. Most people don't care, some want it included and then there is the small percentage that don't want it because the very thought gives them 'ickies'. Most people will just avoid doing something they don't like. They're not going to remove the Renegade options because some people just can't stand being mean to others.

[wowpwnslol]

John Locke N7 wrote...

wowpwnslol wrote...
It shouldn't be included. Same sex male romance would be gross for too many people. Just because a minority wants it, doesn't mean Bio should dedicated their time and resources implementing it.

what a stupid thing to say. so so very very stupid. its so terrible obivous how this statement is stupid. im sorry if this comes off as trolly but come on. read the quote again.

Cool. Attacking an opinion without anything to back it up. I thought this board didn't allow 13 year olds.

[FKA_Servo]

wowpwnslol wrote...


Yes, pull out that race/sex card. If you wave it hard enough, it might even convince a company that is out to make money to introduce a feature a majority of people wouldn't be interested in or find offensive.

Oh wait...

So tell me Dumbname - how would this affect you?  Would anything be lost by including optional content that you would never see if you don't want to?  In game, did you accidentally romance someone you didn't mean to?  It's not easy to do.

[LiquidGrape]

I love the argument which implies that the inclusion of same sex relations would somehow upset the desired target demographic.

- Does this mean that Bioware should cater to a homophobic audience?

The fact that you would be ABLE to pursue a homosexual romance doesn't in any way force you to do so.

It would merely be an option for those of us who think of it as a logical factor in roleplaying.

Immerse yourselves; step out of your own shoes and embrace the fiction.

And why is it that any proposition of male homosexuality is met with disgust or even hostility, whereas nobody seems to take issue with lesbianism?

Oh wait. The normative double standard. Forgot.

[tyddrwsau]

My, but this thread does move quickly! I continue to support it in all its incarnations. It's nice to see some new points of view chiming in, and an overall positive tone in this iteration.



While Part 2 was indeed unwieldy at 120-some pages, I was pleased to see some discussion of details, options, preferences. We've said we'd like same-sex romance, but what kind?



Option 1 was to adjust some existing romanceable characters to provide different-sexed Shepards the same options and dialogue with those characters. Pros: we already know and have grown attached to those characters, the romance trees are already there and in some cases partially finished for same-sex, it alleviates the let down many feel upon discovering they were partially developed already. Cons: some have said that they really really dislike the idea of "changing an established character" from how that character was first released (fair enough).



Option 2 is a whole new squadmate who's gay or bi (or two, for the lesbian/bi angle if that's not satisfied by Liara and Kelly). Pros: we get a whole new character to love and add to the squad dynamic, it doesn't disturb players who wouldn't accept an existing character as bisexual, players who don't care about this issue one way or the other still get a shiny new addition to their game. Cons: need to develop the new character from backstory and character conversations to character model to skillset, we only get to identify with that character through an ME2 expansion or exclusively in ME3.



Either is perfectly acceptable to me. The wide open slate for developing a new character certainly has a lot of possibilities. We'd started talking about ideas like a "beloved rival" character (dubbed "antiShepard") with whom Shepard could be at odds but develop affectional tension and eventually ally. I think that a character working towards similar goals to Shepard also has a lot of possibility: an Alliance intelligence agent, a mercenary, or vigilante type whom we could meet in the middle of a mission of convergent interests is intriguing.



Folks keep bringing up the IGN interview with Ray Muzyka as proof that same-sex romance isn't going to happen in Mass Effect. Folks have already pointed out that his answer is hardly definitive. Even if we were told flat out "We will not have male-male romance in Mass Effect," I think these threads have their place. Plans can change, and I'll join with others who point out that more people post in favor than against (and the arguments in favor are generally more well thought out).



Kaidan: "Shepard, with all that's happened, do you ever get the feeling that our lives have been pre-determined, that all of this was just inevitable?"

John Shepard: "I make my own destiny, Kaidan. Let's try to get some sleep, OK?"

(substitute Sven the hunky space merc, for Kaidan, from the "no rewritten chars" point of view)

[adssdddd]

[JamesMoriarty123]

Akrim_Drak wrote...

JamesMoriarty123 wrote...

YakoHako wrote...

wowpwnslol wrote...

It shouldn't be included. Same sex male romance would be gross for too many people. Just because a minority wants it, doesn't mean Bio should dedicated their time and resources implementing it.

Oh yes, screw minorities.  We GLBTs/blacks/women/latinos/asians/etc, we'll just go sit in the corner while conservative white christian males get everything they want.

Excuse my ignorance, but what does GBLT stand for?

P.S Majority rules. It's the way of the world. It isn't always right, but it's what keeps the world spinning on its axis.

Gay Bisexual Lesbian Transgender/sexual

I do agree majority rules but 2 of BioWare's past 3 new IPs included male relationships and both were successful. I dunno. The only thing I can think of is they're too worried that the "FPS" crowd will rage or whatever. Is that the truth? None of us know really...

The fact that 2 out of 3 have included it should mean that they should get less flak for not including in ME. I mean why do they HAVE to put it in all their games. I mean maybe Jade Empire and Dragon Age have a greater number of gay players or maybe the subject matter is more open to that demographic. Or maybe it's the playerbase for ME would rage like you say, or maybe the writers just aren't up for it? I mean, just because you design/write games doesn't mean you're some paragon of virtue who's up for equal everything.

[wowpwnslol]

TommyServo wrote...

So tell me Dumbname - how would this affect you?  Would anything be lost by including optional content that you would never see if you don't want to?  In game, did you accidentally romance someone you didn't mean to?  It's not easy to do.

It won't affect me - but it will send out a negative social statement that might lose them some customers.

[Lightice_av]

JamesMoriarty123 wrote...

The thread I started wasn't dedicated to bigottry at all. The fact that people just didn't like an Anti-Gay option thread must have just rubbed some people the wrong way.

And the devs locked it as spam because...

Anyway, go check out the last 20 pages of so of the other thread, get up to speed on where the debate is at.

I've been reading even when I've been too busy to talk, don't worry about that.

Or maybe it's the playerbase for ME would rage like you say, or maybe the writers just aren't up for it? I mean, just because you design/write games doesn't mean you're some paragon of virtue who's up for equal everything.

Except that they wrote them. And voice acted them. They just didn't implement them. It was fairly understandable for Mass Effect 1, since that would have made every single LI bisexual, and that probably raised a few too many eyebrows in the marketing department, but with the larger crew and greater variety of LIs in ME2, that should no longer be an issue.

Modifié par Lightice_av, 10 février 2010 - 07:18 .

[JamesMoriarty123]

Lightice_av wrote...

JamesMoriarty123 wrote...

The thread I started wasn't dedicated to bigottry at all. The fact that people just didn't like an Anti-Gay option thread must have just rubbed some people the wrong way.

And the devs locked it as spam because...
 

A lot of gay community members and the less reasonable members of the against argument trolled it to bits.

[FKA_Servo]

wowpwnslol wrote...

It won't affect me - but it will send out a negative social statement that might lose them some customers.

OK.  Why is that a negative social message?  It looks pretty positive to me.  Unless, you know, tolerance and equality are bad things that we should shun.

[Nautica773]

JamesMoriarty123 wrote...
The fact that 2 out of 3 have included it should mean that they should get less flak for not including in ME. I mean why do they HAVE to put it in all their games. I mean maybe Jade Empire and Dragon Age have a greater number of gay players or maybe the subject matter is more open to that demographic. Or maybe it's the playerbase for ME would rage like you say, or maybe the writers just aren't up for it? I mean, just because you design/write games doesn't mean you're some paragon of virtue who's up for equal everything.

I don't think gay players exist in only one genre. I think most gamers transcend the different genres. I know I play a slew of games despite having favourites. While RPGs and Fighter games are my preferred genre, I do play lots of F/TPS platformers, puzzle games etc...

[Edje Edgar]

I wouldnt mind aslong as I wouldnt notice it ingame. For instance I don't want Garrus or Thane to start dropping lines to my Shephard. (Yes zevran annoyed me a great deal). It would just ruin the characters for me. It's allready enoying enough beating off all the women in ME2 as it is.



Call me oldfashioned but I liked it better when you had to chase and harass LI's from the get go, like in Kotor. Now you ask how they're doin after a loyalty mission and they're all over you.