1769 réponses à ce sujet

[catabuca]

I haven't posted on these threads before (that I remember anyway), but would like to register my support for same-sex romances in Mass Effect.



(Since it seems to be all the rage I'll state my situation: female, straight. 100% in support of gender and sexual equality.)



On the topic of 'there are only 20 people posting all the time' - so it goes on internet forums. As with everything in life, it is those with the strongest opinions who tend to voice them. There is a large, silent group in the middle who aren't much fussed either way. Incidentally, the person who introduced me to Mass Effect 1 doesn't post on these forums. She's gay, and supports same-sex relationships in ME.



As for how it could be implemented, everyone thought the thermal clip thing was going against lore, and yet it's been written into the game in a semi-convincing way, and we're living with it. In my main game, my manShep is gay, and fell for Kaidan, but they didn't get together. Kaidan was interested, but whether it was 'don't ask don't tell' (which I hope to god wouldn't exist in the 22nd century) or because of their shyness, or other factors (like, you know, saving the galaxy), they just didn't make it happen. In my own little game universe, Shepard is hoping they'll have a chance at love in ME3. However, perhaps Kaidan will have moved on after their meeting on Horizon, and a new man will come into Shepard's life, and he will finally be able to find personal happiness.



So yeah, as far as I'm concerned, the current two installments of Mass Effect leave plenty of room for both/either a Kaidan relationship and/or a completely new character to emerge.

[DaeJi]

JamesMoriarty123 wrote...

All of this "Oh it would send a good message!" talk is just a load of rubbish I'm afraid. Bioware exist to make awesome games, not make political statements.
It pisses me right off when you see something in a game/movie/ad that's been included just so they could say everythings equal. Happens in movies all the time, there's always a black guy, or a spanish guy, or an asian guy knocking around, I mean hey, it couldn't possibly be that there just weren't any minorities around right?
In my immediate cirlce of friends I know 1 person who is a Cypriet (not sure of the spelling there) and precisely 0 people who are gay men. Except 2 lesibans that I know.
One of the guys here counted up, 57 people support the option, well I'm sorry but if every developer just dropped their hats everytime a vocal minority of under 10,000 people started whining, then we just wouldn't get many games, good ones at least.

As previously stated, there's been like 200K signed petitions for the inclusion of something in a game, something not even controversial, something actually mainstream, and they've been denied flat out.
Chances of Bioware caving to this request/demand = 0% (0.5 if you're feeling lucky)

There is all of one thread about this. Why do you feel the need to rage against it?

[Yeled]

JamesMoriarty123 wrote...

One of the guys here counted up, 57 people support the option, well I'm sorry but if every developer just dropped their hats everytime a vocal minority of under 10,000 people started whining, then we just wouldn't get many games, good ones at least.

As previously stated, there's been like 200K signed petitions for the inclusion of something in a game, something not even controversial, something actually mainstream, and they've been denied flat out.
Chances of Bioware caving to this request/demand = 0% (0.5 if you're feeling lucky)

Right, but 57 users on a forum isn't the sum total of all users who might be interested.  Its just the number who posted on this one thread.

We did a little math earlier and statistically its likely that 200,000 gay players purchased ME2 in the first week of its release.  That's a might bit more than 10k.

[JamesMoriarty123]

The same reason you feel the need to support it?



Also, although I'm behind EA for this decision, I can never forgive them for closing Bullfrog. That wound still hurts.

[SimonTheFrog]

Ryzaki wrote...

biddypocket wrote...

Seneva wrote...

You meet more bi/gay/lesbians in any BIO game then you meet in RL.

...ummm....I'm sorry, but honey, what freaking world do you live in?

o_O.

*points to rock* get out from under it, please.

That's kind of harsh Biddy.

S/he might actually not know any gay people.

What? It might be the case. :innocent:

I've worked in gay political and social organization for years and i've seen a lot of gays that would normally never "come out" to strangers. For every gay you recognize there are five that you just can't tell. Especially, obviously, in societies that are dominated by homophobic heterocentrism.

[Ryzaki]

SimonTheFrog wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

biddypocket wrote...

Seneva wrote...

You meet more bi/gay/lesbians in any BIO game then you meet in RL.

...ummm....I'm sorry, but honey, what freaking world do you live in?

o_O.

*points to rock* get out from under it, please.

That's kind of harsh Biddy.

S/he might actually not know any gay people.

What? It might be the case. :innocent:

I've worked in gay political and social organization for years and i've seen a lot of gays that would normally never "come out" to strangers. For every gay you recognize there are five that you just can't tell. Especially, obviously, in societies that are dominated by homophobic heterocentrism.

Was that a sarcasm failure on my part?

I can't forget the tags anymore.

[JamesMoriarty123]

Yeled wrote...

JamesMoriarty123 wrote...

One of the guys here counted up, 57 people support the option, well I'm sorry but if every developer just dropped their hats everytime a vocal minority of under 10,000 people started whining, then we just wouldn't get many games, good ones at least.

As previously stated, there's been like 200K signed petitions for the inclusion of something in a game, something not even controversial, something actually mainstream, and they've been denied flat out.
Chances of Bioware caving to this request/demand = 0% (0.5 if you're feeling lucky)

Right, but 57 users on a forum isn't the sum total of all users who might be interested.  Its just the number who posted on this one thread.

We did a little math earlier and statistically its likely that 200,000 gay players purchased ME2 in the first week of its release.  That's a might bit more than 10k.

LMAO! Where do you get your figures?? So you're saying that a whopping 10% of all Mass Effect players are gay? Given that the whole word populace has only a 5-15% gay population?
Good grief. Lol. Even if your figures are true, that means the other supported couldn't really give a **** so it's hardly a big push for Bioware to do something. I mean, by not including it they won't exactly kill their sales.

[FKA_Servo]

JamesMoriarty123 wrote...

EA couldn't give a toss what 300 gay people think to be honest...not when the potential blowback from the inclusion of such a thing could outweigh that amount by a large margin.
For once though, I'm glad EA exist. Pandering to every minority who ever requested anything is just a silly idea.

Not to sound hostile (I think I've been playing pretty nicely), but if your principles are so offended, why post?  It just keeps the thread on top, and the chances of you convincing us we're wrong with the same tired argument you've been putting forth all thread are pretty slim.

[DaeJi]

JamesMoriarty123 wrote...

The same reason you feel the need to support it?

Also, although I'm behind EA for this decision, I can never forgive them for closing Bullfrog. That wound still hurts.

Bullfrog? Trust me, closing that down was an act of God. And disagreeing with the stance of this thread is fine, just not questioning it's right to exist. Every aspect of this game has a right to at least one thread on this board.

[Ryzaki]

TommyServo wrote...

JamesMoriarty123 wrote...

EA couldn't give a toss what 300 gay people think to be honest...not when the potential blowback from the inclusion of such a thing could outweigh that amount by a large margin.
For once though, I'm glad EA exist. Pandering to every minority who ever requested anything is just a silly idea.

Not to sound hostile (I think I've been playing pretty nicely), but if your principles are so offended, why post?  It just keeps the thread on top, and the chances of you convincing us we're wrong with the same tired argument you've been putting forth all thread are pretty slim.

'Tis a forum. People like to voice their opinions. Even if they know that they're not going to change anyone's mind.

Reminds me of my debate class actually. Ah the joys of going in circles with the same tired arguments and realizing that you can't wait for the bloody class to be over. <_<

And Fable III. Good Grief Molyneux is going to kill my favorite crack game at the rate he's going. WHY?!? Also: Anyone dumb enough not to understand Fable's experience system is bloody retarded. Physical experience from defeating this with weapons and fists, magic experience from *gasp* using magic! And skill points for using skills like bows and the like! What the heck is hard to understand! 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 12 février 2010 - 09:48 .

[Yeled]

JamesMoriarty123 wrote...

For once though, I'm glad EA exist. Pandering to every minority who ever requested anything is just a silly idea.

Ah, the good old dictatorship of the majority argument.  Gotta love it.  Who cares about people who aren't in the majority?!  Screw 'em.  Let's find a minority group that represents about 10 percent of the country and ignore them!  Its all good.

[PyroFreak301]

JamesMoriarty123 wrote...

All of this "Oh it would send a good message!" talk is just a load of rubbish I'm afraid. Bioware exist to make awesome games, not make political statements.
It pisses me right off when you see something in a game/movie/ad that's been included just so they could say everythings equal. Happens in movies all the time, there's always a black guy, or a spanish guy, or an asian guy knocking around, I mean hey, it couldn't possibly be that there just weren't any minorities around right?
In my immediate cirlce of friends I know 1 person who is a Cypriet (not sure of the spelling there) and precisely 0 people who are gay men. Except 2 lesibans that I know.
One of the guys here counted up, 57 people support the option, well I'm sorry but if every developer just dropped their hats everytime a vocal minority of under 10,000 people started whining, then we just wouldn't get many games, good ones at least.

As previously stated, there's been like 200K signed petitions for the inclusion of something in a game, something not even controversial, something actually mainstream, and they've been denied flat out.
Chances of Bioware caving to this request/demand = 0% (0.5 if you're feeling lucky)

Infinity Ward had set up their own p2p matchmaking service (IWNET), so they had a legitimate reason not to release dedicated servers despite huge public demand, as a result they lost a lot of PC customers, me included. That is quite different to this in the fact that allowing it wouldn't detract anything from the game, Bioware wouldn't have to discard a massive system they've purposely developed just to give people what they want.

The worth of the addition shouldn't be determined by numbers alone. The arguments for the inclusion have been pretty well thought out and convincing so far, they've even managed to bring you round to the idea in part and you were as bad as RedShift when you starting arguing against it.

As for the political message, society is changed by the culmination of little acts of acceptance and inclusion, putting gay people in media has the effect of making people indifferent to it, even if they do rage and moan at first. Noone is saying force media to include them, just them knowing they can contribute their tiny part in the big picture is good enough.

[JamesMoriarty123]

Yeled wrote...

JamesMoriarty123 wrote...

For once though, I'm glad EA exist. Pandering to every minority who ever requested anything is just a silly idea.

Ah, the good old dictatorship of the majority argument.  Gotta love it.  Who cares about people who aren't in the majority?!  Screw 'em.  Let's find a minority group that represents about 10 percent of the country and ignore them!  Its all good.

Hate to be crude but, that's the way the world works. Majority rules. Not saying it's always right, but it's the way it is.

[SimonTheFrog]

Ryzaki wrote...

SimonTheFrog wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

biddypocket wrote...

Seneva wrote...

You meet more bi/gay/lesbians in any BIO game then you meet in RL.

...ummm....I'm sorry, but honey, what freaking world do you live in?

o_O.

*points to rock* get out from under it, please.

That's kind of harsh Biddy.

S/he might actually not know any gay people.

What? It might be the case. :innocent:

I've worked in gay political and social organization for years and i've seen a lot of gays that would normally never "come out" to strangers. For every gay you recognize there are five that you just can't tell. Especially, obviously, in societies that are dominated by homophobic heterocentrism.

Was that a sarcasm failure on my part?

I can't forget the tags anymore.

Sorry, it was directed at seneva... 
And i'm just saying... of course there's a theoretical chance that poor seneva somehow missed the chance of meeting queer folk, but i'd hope he's not so unlucky... 

Modifié par SimonTheFrog, 12 février 2010 - 09:49 .

[DaeJi]

JamesMoriarty123 wrote...


LMAO! Where do you get your figures?? So you're saying that a whopping 10% of all Mass Effect players are gay? Given that the whole word populace has only a 5-15% gay population?
Good grief. Lol. Even if your figures are true, that means the other supported couldn't really give a **** so it's hardly a big push for Bioware to do something. I mean, by not including it they won't exactly kill their sales.

You do realize that if BioWare would release a same sex romance DLC, that a lot of straight people would buy it right? And note that I said buy, as in BioWare would make a fair return on the minimal amount of work they would need to do to make that DLC good. I don't have figures, but I do have pattern recognition, and it's real easy to sell lesbians to straight guys.

[Ryzaki]

Yeled wrote...

JamesMoriarty123 wrote...

For once though, I'm glad EA exist. Pandering to every minority who ever requested anything is just a silly idea.

Ah, the good old dictatorship of the majority argument.  Gotta love it.  Who cares about people who aren't in the majority?!  Screw 'em.  Let's find a minority group that represents about 10 percent of the country and ignore them!  Its all good.

Well at least China is own its way to being the majority then eh? At least the shoe will be on another foot. <_<

[Yeled]

JamesMoriarty123 wrote...

LMAO! Where do you get your figures?? So you're saying that a whopping 10% of all Mass Effect players are gay? Given that the whole word populace has only a 5-15% gay population?

Um...did I miss something?  Didn't you just agree with those figures?  If we use your range that's 100,000 to 300,000 ME2 players.  I simply put it in the statistical middle. 

Or do you think gay people are less likely than average to play videogames?  I'd argue they are more likely to play Bioware games than other games because Bioware has traditionally included gay content.

JamesMoriarty123 wrote...
Good grief. Lol. Even if your figures are true, that means the other supported couldn't really give a **** so it's hardly a big push for Bioware to do something. I mean, by not including it they won't exactly kill their sales.

10 percent is a lot of people and a lot of sales.  It could make a lot of repeat customers happy.

[JamesMoriarty123]

DaeJi wrote...

JamesMoriarty123 wrote...


LMAO! Where do you get your figures?? So you're saying that a whopping 10% of all Mass Effect players are gay? Given that the whole word populace has only a 5-15% gay population?
Good grief. Lol. Even if your figures are true, that means the other supported couldn't really give a **** so it's hardly a big push for Bioware to do something. I mean, by not including it they won't exactly kill their sales.

You do realize that if BioWare would release a same sex romance DLC, that a lot of straight people would buy it right? And note that I said buy, as in BioWare would make a fair return on the minimal amount of work they would need to do to make that DLC good. I don't have figures, but I do have pattern recognition, and it's real easy to sell lesbians to straight guys.

Yeah, but it isn't so easy to sell gay men to straight guys, and thats what this thread is about. Also, the inclusion of a gay romance as DLC although a good idea, in practice probably not as only gay guys and straight women who wanna see it would buy it. There's no reason a straight man would buy it, and they are far and away the largest player group.

[Yeled]

JamesMoriarty123 wrote...

Yeled wrote...

JamesMoriarty123 wrote...

For once though, I'm glad EA exist. Pandering to every minority who ever requested anything is just a silly idea.

Ah, the good old dictatorship of the majority argument.  Gotta love it.  Who cares about people who aren't in the majority?!  Screw 'em.  Let's find a minority group that represents about 10 percent of the country and ignore them!  Its all good.

Hate to be crude but, that's the way the world works. Majority rules. Not saying it's always right, but it's the way it is.

Right.  So you're for reintroducing slavery then....

[Jimmy Fury]

JamesMoriarty123 wrote...
not when the potential blowback from the inclusion of such a thing could outweigh that amount by a large margin.

I think the difference in sales between DA and ME might argue that there wouldn't be any blowback at all.
So far DA has sold more copies than ME did in its first 14 weeks.

Of course, I'll admit that those numbers could be off. The site I got them from didn't have any Japanese sales for DA (was it even released in Japan?) and didn't list which countries fall under "other" . So I only compared the american sales since it's the only single-country catagory other than Japan.

JamesMoriarty123 wrote...
 in practice probably not as only
gay guys and straight women who wanna see it would buy it. There's no
reason a straight man would buy it, and they are far and away the
largest player group.

Edit: narf missed this while writing lol
Honestly, perhaps I'm naive but I think if the character is done well people would DL just to get an awesome new squady and they wouldn't care about the sexuality aspect.

Modifié par Jimmy Fury, 12 février 2010 - 09:58 .

[JamesMoriarty123]

Yeled wrote...

JamesMoriarty123 wrote...

LMAO! Where do you get your figures?? So you're saying that a whopping 10% of all Mass Effect players are gay? Given that the whole word populace has only a 5-15% gay population?

Um...did I miss something?  Didn't you just agree with those figures?  If we use your range that's 100,000 to 300,000 ME2 players.  I simply put it in the statistical middle. 

Or do you think gay people are less likely than average to play videogames?  I'd argue they are more likely to play Bioware games than other games because Bioware has traditionally included gay content.

JamesMoriarty123 wrote...
Good grief. Lol. Even if your figures are true, that means the other supported couldn't really give a **** so it's hardly a big push for Bioware to do something. I mean, by not including it they won't exactly kill their sales.

10 percent is a lot of people and a lot of sales.  It could make a lot of repeat customers happy.

You miss my point. I meant if the other 199, 943 people who supported the inclusion don't care enough to post, then Bioware clearly don't have a problem by not including it.

[JamesMoriarty123]

Yeled wrote...

JamesMoriarty123 wrote...

Yeled wrote...

JamesMoriarty123 wrote...

For once though, I'm glad EA exist. Pandering to every minority who ever requested anything is just a silly idea.

Ah, the good old dictatorship of the majority argument.  Gotta love it.  Who cares about people who aren't in the majority?!  Screw 'em.  Let's find a minority group that represents about 10 percent of the country and ignore them!  Its all good.

Hate to be crude but, that's the way the world works. Majority rules. Not saying it's always right, but it's the way it is.

Right.  So you're for reintroducing slavery then....

You're aware the majority of people were against slavery right? I mean you do know that? If they weren't, then it would still exist today. Thankfully it doesn't.

[tmelange]

JamesMoriarty123 wrote...

Hate to be crude but, that's the way the world works. Majority rules. Not saying it's always right, but it's the way it is.

Actually, majority doesn't always rule, and in a civil society that has advanced to the point where basic freedoms are recognized and human rights preserved, one of the biggest issues is the protection of the minority stance from the overwhelming heft of the majority. It's why we have the electoral college in the USA (so populous states like NY can't steamroll its views over Utah) and why there are civil rights laws. It is never a wise stance to justify anything by simply saying "majority rules". Of course, history has shown that some of the worst human atrocities have been committed based on the notion of majority rules.

Modifié par tmelange, 12 février 2010 - 09:59 .

[DaeJi]

JamesMoriarty123 wrote...
Yeah, but it isn't so easy to sell gay men to straight guys, and thats what this thread is about. Also, the inclusion of a gay romance as DLC although a good idea, in practice probably not as only gay guys and straight women who wanna see it would buy it. There's no reason a straight man would buy it, and they are far and away the largest player group.

BioWare would not have to sell gay men to straight men, they would just have to mention that option in the description. As for paying for the DLC, people would pay. People have said that they would pay. They may not want to, but they would. And many straight men would buy it; other than the whole "LESBIANS!" thing, many players will buy it if it came with achievements, and others would buy it to have a more "complete" game.