1769 réponses à ce sujet

[JamesMoriarty123]

Sabul wrote...

I really must say though. Collider is my favourite person to disagree with in this topic. He is not against a new gay or bisexual character. Only changing previous ones. I think this really must be resaid as I worry some of us have forgotten that. Not to mention his posts are well thought out and very readable. More than could be said of some others.

Go read my last posts in the other thread. Me and Jimmy Fury are basically on the same page. I would prefer no M/M in my game, but I wouldn't be dead set against it as long as they didn't screw with existing characters.

I've maintained this position throughout.

[biddypocket]

Collider wrote...

biddypocket wrote...
You're quite right, but it still doesn't change the fact that their sexualities were never outright stated. You're basing your observations off heteornormative assumptions that everyone who isn't outspoken about their attraction to the same sex must be heterosexual. It's a common fallacy, so I understand.

I am saying they are heterosexual in a practical sense. We've solid indication that they are heterosexual, yet we've none for being bisexual. If we have to apply sexualities to these characters, I would go with what gender they are undoubtedly attracted to. Again, Bioware suddenly changing ME2 characters to be attracted to the same sex is changing their character, and retconning. And for what, all 1% of the people who want it? Yes, let's have Bioware divert their resources to please all those 10 people who want it, instead of DLC that doesn't character assassinate, like Hammerhead and such.

sweety, I don't think you get it. "Practical sense?" "Solid Indication?" Where? Show me. I, for one, thought Ashley was a total butch lez (no offense to mah lady-lovahs) when I played through ME1. I didn't even bother trying to romance her.

The only reason you see something as "practical" or having a "solid indiation" is because you, yourself, are heterosexual. You interpret the world as you see it, and through your own experience....and I'm not blaming you for it! But you're under the impression that because someone acts heterosexual, they are. What about Joker? He seems straight to me. Nothing to necessarily indiate that he's not. But could he be gay? Well, why the hell not? I'm not disagreeing with you that many of the characters are probably straight....but you can't, under any circumstances, be 100% certain otherwise. So, you're argument is a moot point.

(P.S. - C. Wright Mills, "The Socioogical Imagination" - give it a read!)

Anddd...it's schway more than 1%. I suggest reading Kinsey's "Sexual Behavior and the Human Male." It's only about....700-800 pages or so. You'll find some convincing and surprising numbers there. And, if you know anything about psychologial research metholodoloy, you'd know how well the studies were run.

Please. I know sexuality is complex, it is not black and white.

I wasn't trying to trivialize your knowledge of sexuality....but if that's the case, why keep using 1% as the "golden number?" Through interviews with over 100,000 men (larger than nearly any qualitative study in psychological history), he councluded that 47% had, at some point, a homosexual feeling or urge. 36% (or 30%, I forget) have had homosexual encounters with other men. Close to 11.6% have lead their lives, at some point, with a definitive, though not necessarily exclusive, attraction to the same sex.

*shrug* if you think you know more about psychology than Kinsey, then who am I to argue? But I wouldn't quote false numbers simply to bolster your already flawed argument. That's just silly!


SILLY .....gawsh, these smiley are cute

Modifié par biddypocket, 12 février 2010 - 11:35 .

[DaeJi]

Collider wrote...
Except, I never even stated that. I never stated at all that fan feedback has no influence, or that Bioware does not care or is influenced by fan feedback. In fact, I would be the first to argue that Bioware listens and is affected. My point was that some of you should consider that Bioware may want these characters to remain heterosexual. That a small amount of people wanting characters to be retconned into bisexuality isn't exactly a pressing issue for Bioware.

My point is that you could have said the thing to the people who wanted Garrus and Tali. Yet they still requested, over and over again, and BioWare listened to them. Will they listen to us? I don't know, I hope so. It's not like we are asking for a new game here.

[Erode_The_Soul]

JamesMoriarty123 wrote...

I suppose it's because I see the world changing every day, bending to liberal ideals and trying desperately to keep every minority under the sun happy with everything, and while it's a noble goal the feelings and desires of the masses just seem to get lost in the storm.
Also the vain hope you guys desperately cling to just kinda irritates me. I mean there is nothing to even remotely suggest the inclusion of such a thing in the final Mass Effect, and this is backed up by 2 games of non-inclusion and an interview with the head-honcho of BW.

Wow... I go to dinner and this thread explodes. I know I'm a bit late to the party, and I see you've already left us to our hopelessness but I'll answer regardless.

I live in the same world you do, my friend, yet I don't make it my mission to attempt to quell those who are merely asking to be heard. The hope we cling to annoys you? I'm fairly certain there is a way to avoid such annoyances. Honestly, the intense (and somewhat creepy) love for Tali annoys me, but I don't run into the Tali-love thread and mention it. I simply don't click and suddenly, I'm not annoyed. Yes, we're clinging to hope. Yes, we may be screaming at a brick wall. But surely you must realize that you're doing the same thing, yeah?

JamesMoriarty123 wrote...Consider this, if all the content was created and everything was good to rock, why wouldn't they include it? Twice?

I can only hazard a guess, since I'm not privy to the dealings of developing a game, but I would imagine they didn't include the content for the same reason they didn't include the Talimance the first time around. They planned the romance, wrote it out, perhaps even animated it (though I'm not too sure on that), but didn't implement it due to their belief that she wouldn't be liked (chicken feet and all that).

Your own arguments suggest that they could have had these same thoughts regarding homosexual romances. This thread is here to let them know that there is a segment of their audience that would appreciate these options, were they to find themselves in the same situation again. No harm, no foul, no need to get your feathers ruffled.

Modifié par Erode_The_Soul, 12 février 2010 - 11:34 .

[JamesMoriarty123]

Ashton808 wrote...

I do not support it.

disgusting.

Lol. Bang on fella.

[catabuca]

Ryzaki wrote...

catabuca wrote...

Anyway, to change things up a bit, did someone post a link to Kaidan/manShep slash earlier? Because, you know, I wouldn't mind reading that.

Well I have a few links. (They're not necessarily good T_T but they're readable. Alas. 'Tis mostly smut.) 

My inbox is open (fnar) ... 

[Sabul]

Collider wrote...

The problem I have with what you said is that you seem to think that cut content or deleted content still defines the character. This is not neccessarily true, if at all. Jack may have been originally planned to be an exactly different character with a polar opposite personality. Content is cut and modified all the time, this is normal. Revision makes the better game. This happens in writing almost invariably, it is what all the authors do. They have an idea, they revise it or scrap it altogether.

I suppose I am just the sort of person who enjoys reading a book only to be disappointed by all the changes in the film. Oddly enough I even watch all the deleted scenes in movies. Sure they are no longer cannon but they were a part of the original plot and they help me get a better understanding of who the character was envisioned to be.

[comicfan22]

Smut be good. Yay smut!

[JamesMoriarty123]

Erode_The_Soul wrote...

JamesMoriarty123 wrote...

I suppose it's because I see the world changing every day, bending to liberal ideals and trying desperately to keep every minority under the sun happy with everything, and while it's a noble goal the feelings and desires of the masses just seem to get lost in the storm.
Also the vain hope you guys desperately cling to just kinda irritates me. I mean there is nothing to even remotely suggest the inclusion of such a thing in the final Mass Effect, and this is backed up by 2 games of non-inclusion and an interview with the head-honcho of BW.

Wow... I go to dinner and this thread explodes. I know I'm a bit late to the party, and I see you've already left us to our hopelessness but I'll answer regardless.

I live in the same world you do, my friend, yet I don't make it my mission to attempt to quell those who are merely asking to be heard. The hope we cling to annoys you? I'm fairly certain there is a way to avoid such annoyances. Honestly, the intense (and somewhat creepy) love for Tali annoys me, but I don't run into the Tali-love thread and mention it. I simply don't click and suddenly, I'm not annoyed. Yes, we're clinging to hope. Yes, we may be screaming at a brick wall. But surely you must realize that you're doing the same thing, yeah?

JamesMoriarty123 wrote...Consider this, if all the content was created and everything was good to rock, why wouldn't they include it? Twice?

I can only hazard a guess, since I'm not privy to the dealings of developing a game, but I would imagine they didn't include the content for the same reason they didn't include the Talimance the first time around. They planned the romance, wrote it out, perhaps even animated it (though I'm not too sure on that), but didn't implement it due to their belief that she wouldn't be liked (chicken feet and all that).

Your own arguments suggest that they could have had these same thoughts regarding homosexual romances. This thread is here to let them know that there is a segment of their audience that would appreciate these options, were they to find themselves in the same situation again. No harm, no foul, no need to get your feathers ruffled.

It's posts like this that bring me back down to debate level, instead of being at Johnny Storm level.

[JamesMoriarty123]

On a different note, the Kinsey survey has been debunked on a number of occasions.

[catabuca]

JamesMoriarty123 wrote...

Ashton808 wrote...

I do not support it.

disgusting.

Lol. Bang on fella.

I love the way you say your position has always been that you do not disagree with m/m romance as long as it doesn't impact your game AND say it's disgusting and you don't support it all on the same page. You do your credibility no favours. But then I don't suppose you care.

Do you think you're going to change our minds? Do you think you're going to stop us wanting same-sex relationships? Do you think we'll go away? What are you trying to achieve. I'm honestly interested.

[Jimmy Fury]

Collider wrote...
I am saying they are heterosexual in a practical sense. We've solid indication that they are heterosexual, yet we've none for being bisexual. If we have to apply sexualities to these characters, I would go with what gender they are undoubtedly attracted to. Again, Bioware suddenly changing ME2 characters to be attracted to the same sex is changing their character, and retconning. And for what, all 1% of the people who want it? Yes, let's have Bioware divert their resources to please all those 10 people who want it, instead of DLC that doesn't character assassinate, like Hammerhead and such.

Except that changing them to be attracted to humans is exactly the same thing. Garrus even states, clearly, that he doesn't have a human fetish. Tali is a quarian and physically can't be intimate with a human without having a suicidal streak.
These are massively out of character in accordance with how those characters were established. Yet they were done anyway.
I mean if you want to go with "the only thing we know for certain" then:
-Thane shouldn't be a romance option because the only thing we know for sure is that he is attracted to Drell.
-Jack should be romancable by both sexes because she admits to being bisexual.
-Garrus shouldn't be romancable because he is attracted to Turian females.
-Tali shouldn't be romancable because it could kill her.
This whole "it's out of character based on what we know" argument fails under the weight of its own logical flaws.

and noooow back to stupid math work...

[Sabul]

JamesMoriarty123 wrote...


Go read my last posts in the other thread. Me and Jimmy Fury are basically on the same page. I would prefer no M/M in my game, but I wouldn't be dead set against it as long as they didn't screw with existing characters.

I've maintained this position throughout.

Yeah but you are constantly going on about how horrible male homosexuality is. Making rude comment about sexual practices of homosexual males. Not to mention constantly seem to putting on airs of superiority. It is horribly offensive and overshadows any valid point you make. I would not be surprised if you yourself were a sixteen year old boy.

[biddypocket]

JamesMoriarty123 wrote...

On a different note, the Kinsey survey has been debunked on a number of occasions.

....which is why there is still the Kinsey Institute, and it is heavily referred to throughout psychological practice to date? Hm. Well, I'm open to the thought. Go find me some peer-reviewed articles for me to read over, and I can give you a better sense of it. I do have my BA in psychology, after all so...yeah, I know a little about these things.

Modifié par biddypocket, 12 février 2010 - 11:39 .

[sw33ts]

JamesMoriarty123 wrote...

On a different note, the Kinsey survey has been debunked on a number of occasions.

I've never heard of it being debunked, but I'd gladly read about it if you linked me.  I have however heard that it's too simplistic in today's age...with all the random people who are inbetween the inbetweens.

[Collider]

Beregar wrote...
Of course it is important in a sense that it allows us to romance them in the game, but the fact remains that it does not change the character. At most it changes your perception of the character. The character doesn't suddenly turn "gay" or start dressing up in drag after the "big revelation". If you turn them down they follow the straight path. These aren't even real people so their actions are even more limited!

It does change the character. Suddenly, they are attracted to the male or female form. Sexuality isn't the most important aspect of a person, but it is important. A lot of it has to do with society's gender roles. Genitalia is not the only thing that often characterizes gender. There are plenty of things associated with masculinity and feminity, while they are not the rule, they are often the case.
The latter I can definitely see as being attractive for a female, at least in the biological sense. Men for example, are often more aggressive and protective, and their bodies often represent the ability for both (muscles, etc). A woman can like the archetypal "knight in shining armor."

Now, suddenly these characters are going to be attracted to the same sex? Yes, it is changing them.

I mean do you pick your friends based on their sexual orientation?

My god. This has exactly no bearing on the conversation. Random, much? To answer your question, no, I don't pick my friends based upon sexual orientation. Their sexual orientation, unless they allow it to be blatantly and obviously define their actions, has no bearing on whether I could and would consider them a friend.

If someone tells you they are bi or gay after you have thought them to be straight does knowing it somehow change them?

This is different, dude. They were either always bisexual or gay, or due to experiences, their sexuality moves towards homosexuality or bisexuality. We're not talking about real life, we are talking about going back to ME2 and rewriting the character's sexuality, thereby changing him. That is not the same as my friend realizing he is gay or bisexual 2 years after I first met him.

It shouldn't. They have most likely been that person for a very long time so why would they suddenly change what they are and start behaving differently? Unless you decide to go all homophobic on them in which case there's bound to be some sort of backlash.

Uh, I agree. Like I said, ME2 =/= real life. It's a bad example.

I hope you are not under the impression that I am in any way prejudices against homosexuality or bisexuality. I do not stereotype homosexuals or bisexuals either. I do not think that gay guys will invariably hit on me just because they are gay.

Modifié par Collider, 12 février 2010 - 11:41 .

[biddypocket]

sw33ts wrote...

JamesMoriarty123 wrote...

On a different note, the Kinsey survey has been debunked on a number of occasions.

I've never heard of it being debunked, but I'd gladly read about it if you linked me.  I have however heard that it's too simplistic in today's age...with all the random people who are inbetween the inbetweens.

As I suggested in another post, "Sexual Behavior of the Human Male" is a GREAT read! It talks all about this. Uber interesting. He was a lot more progressive and developed in his thinking than to think sexuality was set in stone

[JamesMoriarty123]

catabuca wrote...

JamesMoriarty123 wrote...

Ashton808 wrote...

I do not support it.

disgusting.

Lol. Bang on fella.

I love the way you say your position has always been that you do not disagree with m/m romance as long as it doesn't impact your game AND say it's disgusting and you don't support it all on the same page. You do your credibility no favours. But then I don't suppose you care.

Do you think you're going to change our minds? Do you think you're going to stop us wanting same-sex relationships? Do you think we'll go away? What are you trying to achieve. I'm honestly interested.

I said I'd prefer it not to be in, and I hardly support it, and I do personally find it digusting.
That doesn't invalidate my previous post where I said I wouldnt be out to stop it as long as existing characters weren't messed with.
I know I won't change your minds, no question about that. And I'm fairly positive you won't go away, yet anyway, after a few months I can't imagine this being a big issue.

What am I trying to achiev? That is a tough cookie tbh, I suppose I simply want people to realise that it just isn't going to happen. Every time someone tells me "We know it wont, but we can still talk about it." I come 1 step closer to leaving the thread alone, but then some clown always chimes in with a "homophobe" this or a "close minded this!" or even worse, a "I WANT KAIDEN TO BE GAY WHAA WHAA" and that just drags me right back in.

[Ryzaki]

Kaidan is totally gay for my M!Shep <3

Edit: Yup they totally are going to go on that vacation together after saving the galaxy. And then most likely have to save the galaxy again.

Provided Shep doesn't die of course.

Edit: Alot of you guys seem to be forgetting this is primarily a GAME. Its supposed to be fun and make a reasonable amount of sense. Which means while everyone might not be gay/bisexual having one character decide that "if its Shepard its okay." isn't completely out of the realm of possibliity. (Unless of course said character has a reason to utterly loathe every fiber of Shep's being).

Way too much serious business in this thread.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 12 février 2010 - 11:47 .

[JamesMoriarty123]

And I'm back in the room.

Kaiden is straight as a broadrule and my brother in arms. Wouldn't want a gay guy watching my ass in a firefight.

Modifié par JamesMoriarty123, 12 février 2010 - 11:44 .

[biddypocket]

JamesMoriarty123 wrote...

catabuca wrote...

JamesMoriarty123 wrote...

Ashton808 wrote...

I do not support it.

disgusting.

Lol. Bang on fella.

I love the way you say your position has always been that you do not disagree with m/m romance as long as it doesn't impact your game AND say it's disgusting and you don't support it all on the same page. You do your credibility no favours. But then I don't suppose you care.

Do you think you're going to change our minds? Do you think you're going to stop us wanting same-sex relationships? Do you think we'll go away? What are you trying to achieve. I'm honestly interested.

I said I'd prefer it not to be in, and I hardly support it, and I do personally find it digusting.
That doesn't invalidate my previous post where I said I wouldnt be out to stop it as long as existing characters weren't messed with.
I know I won't change your minds, no question about that. And I'm fairly positive you won't go away, yet anyway, after a few months I can't imagine this being a big issue.

What am I trying to achiev? That is a tough cookie tbh, I suppose I simply want people to realise that it just isn't going to happen. Every time someone tells me "We know it wont, but we can still talk about it." I come 1 step closer to leaving the thread alone, but then some clown always chimes in with a "homophobe" this or a "close minded this!" or even worse, a "I WANT KAIDEN TO BE GAY WHAA WHAA" and that just drags me right back in.

Aw, Jamesey. That's okay *huggles*. I think vaginas are ICKY! 

And, I believe the previous poster was referring to your comment "Bang on fella" - what, exactly, did you mean by that?

[DaeJi]

Collider wrote...
It does change the character. Suddenly, they are attracted to the male or female form. Sexuality isn't the most important aspect of a person, but it is important. A lot of it has to do with society's gender roles. Genitalia is not the only thing that often characterizes gender. There are plenty of things associated with masculinity and feminity, while they are not the rule, they are often the case.
The latter I can definitely see as being attractive for a female, at least in the biological sense. Men for example, are often more aggressive and protective, and their bodies often represent the ability for both (muscles, etc). A woman can like the archetypal "knight in shining armor."

Now, suddenly these characters are going to be attracted to the same sex? Yes, it is changing them.

I think fiction overcomes this. Because these characters are fictional, and thus their personalities up the whim of the writers, the effect their sexuality has on the rest of their personality is up to them. Sexuality in a fiction character carries little weight in a game like this, where all it determines is whether or not a character of a certain gender can romance them. Beyond that, nothing is changed. Hence why I have no problem with them altering it.

[JamesMoriarty123]

DaeJi wrote...

Collider wrote...
It does change the character. Suddenly, they are attracted to the male or female form. Sexuality isn't the most important aspect of a person, but it is important. A lot of it has to do with society's gender roles. Genitalia is not the only thing that often characterizes gender. There are plenty of things associated with masculinity and feminity, while they are not the rule, they are often the case.
The latter I can definitely see as being attractive for a female, at least in the biological sense. Men for example, are often more aggressive and protective, and their bodies often represent the ability for both (muscles, etc). A woman can like the archetypal "knight in shining armor."

Now, suddenly these characters are going to be attracted to the same sex? Yes, it is changing them.

I think fiction overcomes this. Because these characters are fictional, and thus their personalities up the whim of the writers, the effect their sexuality has on the rest of their personality is up to them. Sexuality in a fiction character carries little weight in a game like this, where all it determines is whether or not a character of a certain gender can romance them. Beyond that, nothing is changed. Hence why I have no problem with them altering it.

Colliders argument aside, although its a good argument, just look at the backstories for christs sake. Kaiden, in love with a GIRL on Jump Zero. Thane, married with kids, Garrus, already up for it with FemShep.
So yeah, changing them does affect their backstory.

[Creature 1]

JamesMoriarty123 wrote...
Yet everyone is quick to forget that Ninja Mage brought the flame first, and wasn't called out at all.

This video seems apropos. 

[biddypocket]

JamesMoriarty123 wrote...

Colliders argument aside, although its a good argument, just look at the backstories for christs sake. Kaiden, in love with a GIRL on Jump Zero. Thane, married with kids, Garrus, already up for it with FemShep.
So yeah, changing them does affect their backstory.

Errr....just as a fun fact, Elton John was married to a woman. Married.

TEE HEE!