1769 réponses à ce sujet

[DaeJi]

JamesMoriarty123 wrote...


Colliders argument aside, although its a good argument, just look at the backstories for christs sake. Kaiden, in love with a GIRL on Jump Zero. Thane, married with kids, Garrus, already up for it with FemShep.
So yeah, changing them does affect their backstory.

Sky in Jade Empire was once married to a woman with a child. He was a love interest for males. A character's past only provides a base for their current personality, not where their character goes. And since I'm for altering the sexual orientations in Mass Effect 2, the Garrus example doesn't fit.

[JamesMoriarty123]

Creature 1 wrote...

JamesMoriarty123 wrote...
Yet everyone is quick to forget that Ninja Mage brought the flame first, and wasn't called out at all.

This video seems apropos. 

Lol, nice video man. I actually laughed. Out Loud.

[Erode_The_Soul]

JamesMoriarty123 wrote...

 Woudn't want a gay guy watching my ass in a firefight.

Come
on now, James; you're better than this. You know full well that, in the
context of a firefight, the only reason the "gay guy" (one reason I'm
hoping to see Bioware create a homosexual character is to move beyond
that lable) would be "watching your ass" is to make sure it doesn't
die. Engage in debate, don't stoop to this level.

EDIT:

JamesMoriarty123 wrote...





Colliders argument aside,
although its a good argument, just look at the backstories for christs
sake. Kaiden, in love with a GIRL on Jump Zero. Thane, married with
kids, Garrus, already up for it with FemShep.

So yeah, changing them does affect their backstory.

But he's not up for it because she's FEMshep. He's up
for it because she's Commander Shepard. I've mentioned before that their relationship is built upon a foundation of strong
friendship, respect and trust. These are attributes that are easliy transferrable to a M/M romance. Though I would prefer they create a new character instead of cheaply taking on a bisexual switch, Garrus seems to be the more likely candidate for it.

Modifié par Erode_The_Soul, 12 février 2010 - 11:57 .

[Collider]

biddypocket wrote...
sweety, I don't think you get it. "Practical sense?" "Solid Indication?" Where? Show me. I, for one, thought Ashley was a total butch lez (no offense to mah lady-lovahs) when I played through ME1. I didn't even bother trying to romance her.

Funny how YOU are applying stereotypes to sexualities. Don't be condescending to me.

Let's look at the definition of practical.

1. Based on practice or action rather than theory or hypothesis

You can do the action of romancing Asley as a male character. You CANNOT do the action of romancing Ashley as a female character.
You can HYPOTHESIZE or THEORIZE (or fantasize in you're into it) that Ashley might be bisexual, but in practise, she is heterosexual.

The only reason you see something as "practical" or having a "solid indiation" is because you, yourself, are heterosexual.

Are you going to start calling me a breeder now? I would be arguing the EXACT same thing if instead you wanted Kelly to be 100% heterosexual or 100% homosexual. I would be saying the exact same thing = don't change the character, keep her bisexual.

You interpret the world as you see it, and through your own experience....and I'm not blaming you for it!

This is true of you as well, yet you are the one projecting your stereotypes of sexuality unto these characters. Ashley being a butch lesbian, for example.

But you're under the impression that because someone acts heterosexual, they are. What about Joker? He seems straight to me. Nothing to necessarily indiate that he's not. But could he be gay? Well, why the hell not? I'm not disagreeing with you that many of the characters are probably straight....but you can't, under any circumstances, be 100% certain otherwise. So, you're argument is a moot point.

There is no "acting" heterosexual. You are either attracted to the opposite sex or you aren't. Joker has no romance whatsoever, so yet again your comparison is not good. And we are not talking about him. I haven't said a word about Joker's sexuality nor do I care to.

It is strange that you seem more bigoted than I. Don't assume things about me, please.


(P.S. - C. Wright Mills, "The Socioogical Imagination" - give it a read!)

I wasn't trying to trivialize your knowledge of sexuality....but if that's the case, why keep using 1% as the "golden number?" Through interviews with over 100,000 men (larger than nearly any qualitative study in psychological history), he councluded that 47% had, at some point, a homosexual feeling or urge. 36% (or 30%, I forget) have had homosexual encounters with other men. Close to 11.6% have lead their lives, at some point, with a definitive, though not necessarily exclusive, attraction to the same sex.

1% is just for argument's sake. I do not pretend to know the exact percentage of ME2 players that want Bioware to change character's sexualities. Dude, male/gay/bisexual population =/= Mass Effect player population. It's not the same. Most people in the world have not played video games, let alone Mass Effect. Most gay/bi people do not play video games, let alone Mass Effect.

Modifié par Collider, 12 février 2010 - 11:51 .

[JamesMoriarty123]

Erode_The_Soul wrote...

JamesMoriarty123 wrote...

 Woudn't want a gay guy watching my ass in a firefight.

Come on now, James; you're better than this. You know full well that, in the context of a firefight, the only reason the "gay guy" (one reason I'm hoping to see Bioware create a homosexual character is to move beyond that lable) would be "watching your ass" is to make sure it doesn't die. Engage in debate, don't stoop to this level.

Lol, **** man, I seriously didn't even realise the connection. My bad.
Lol...man...how'd I miss that?

[comicfan22]

Creature 1 wrote...

JamesMoriarty123 wrote...
Yet everyone is quick to forget that Ninja Mage brought the flame first, and wasn't called out at all.

This video seems apropos. 

Ahhh....and suddenly the anger in the post i was ABOUT to write has been quelled.

[catabuca]

You see, I just don't see why it's so difficult for someone to cope with the fact that each player sees the characters differently based on their own preferences.



James, Kaidan is straight. In your game, and no doubt in an awful lot of other games. In MY game, Kaidan is bi. I've played ME1 numerous times, and when I play as manShep I just always see Kaidan that way. It doesn't offend me that you or other people believe him to be straight, and I really can't understand why it would upset you that some people see him another way. That's what role-playing is: the player creates a story in their mind, fills in the blanks, expands on what is known, what is supposed, and lives their own universe. I haven't gone out of my way to desperately find gay where there is none, it's just how I envisage the characters as being. I sometimes pursue F/F relationships too, but I don't view Ashley as gay, nor do I see Miranda or even Jack as gay.



Not one person wants Bioware to foist gay content on you, to make you sit through a cutscene with Kaidan telling your manShep he's always loved you from afar. What people on this thread want is the option to fulfil the roles THEIR Shepard, and THEIR supporting cast have in THEIR game universe. Option.

[SimonTheFrog]

Adding bi-sexuality to existing characters wouldn't alter them. It would just add another facet. It's like when you hear about that Garrus is actually very good in close combat during a talk with him. Sofar he was always good with the sniper. No one would have suspected that. But "Bam", there is another side to him.



And just because Garrus sofar only fell for FemShep doesnt mean he might be interested in MaleShep too... they just omitted the fitting dialogs sofar. I can find no evidence anywhere that he doesn't secretly crave for MaleShep... can you?

[Collider]

DaeJi wrote...
I think fiction overcomes this. Because these characters are fictional, and thus their personalities up the whim of the writers, the effect their sexuality has on the rest of their personality is up to them.

I agree 100%. But it is changing their character if their sexuality is changed, because sexuality is part of their character. If I am foreseeing a possible part of your reply, no, hair color is not an aspect of their character.

Sexuality in a fiction character carries little weight in a game like this, where all it determines is whether or not a character of a certain gender can romance them. Beyond that, nothing is changed. Hence why I have no problem with them altering it.

DaeJi, you said yourself that the effect of sexuality upon a character's personality is up to the writers. Yet now you are saying they carry little weight. The writers know their characters more intimately than you do.

[Sabul]

JamesMoriarty123 wrote...

Colliders argument aside, although its a good argument, just look at the backstories for christs sake. Kaiden, in love with a GIRL on Jump Zero. Thane, married with kids, Garrus, already up for it with FemShep.
So yeah, changing them does affect their backstory.

It was the norm for gay men in our own society to marry and have children up until only recently. It really fell out of favour when gay men started to be more open with their sexuality in the 70's. Who is to say Thane having a kid with a woman was not him bowing to the pressures of his society rather than a declaration of his own sexuality? Being attracted to a woman with undisclosed feelings for men does not make you straight. Garrus fell for Shepard not out of sexual attraction but mutual respect and friendship. That is something that transcends sexuality and him not being attracted to humans to begin with could be applied to the male Shepard as well.

[Ryzaki]

comicfan22 wrote...

Creature 1 wrote...

JamesMoriarty123 wrote...
Yet everyone is quick to forget that Ninja Mage brought the flame first, and wasn't called out at all.

This video seems apropos. 

Ahhh....and suddenly the anger in the post i was ABOUT to write has been quelled.

Ditto that vid made all the arguing worth it.

Also: Garrus not being a bi option was strange to me considering he goes out of his way to say he's not physically attracted to Shepard and is a case of "if its you its okay." why this would transcend the species barrier and not the gender one baffles me.

Ditto with Tali now that I think about it.

I don't think Thane would have overly cared about gender either...nor Jack. 

Or Kaidan.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 13 février 2010 - 12:03 .

[JamesMoriarty123]

catabuca wrote...

You see, I just don't see why it's so difficult for someone to cope with the fact that each player sees the characters differently based on their own preferences.

James, Kaidan is straight. In your game, and no doubt in an awful lot of other games. In MY game, Kaidan is bi. I've played ME1 numerous times, and when I play as manShep I just always see Kaidan that way. It doesn't offend me that you or other people believe him to be straight, and I really can't understand why it would upset you that some people see him another way. That's what role-playing is: the player creates a story in their mind, fills in the blanks, expands on what is known, what is supposed, and lives their own universe. I haven't gone out of my way to desperately find gay where there is none, it's just how I envisage the characters as being. I sometimes pursue F/F relationships too, but I don't view Ashley as gay, nor do I see Miranda or even Jack as gay.

Not one person wants Bioware to foist gay content on you, to make you sit through a cutscene with Kaidan telling your manShep he's always loved you from afar. What people on this thread want is the option to fulfil the roles THEIR Shepard, and THEIR supporting cast have in THEIR game universe. Option.

You make a good argument, no doubt about it.  I'm not against the option, I'm just against changing the existing characters.
I get that people view them differently, but in all fairness I think it's unfair to change them at this point given that so much can be inferred from their backstories. It's just such a cop-out if BW suddenly went "Oh yeah they weren't available in the first and 2nd games but now they're Bi and into you..." I mean come on.
Whats the difficulty for yourself and others in just accepting a new character? Why must you continue to press for a change?

[Sabul]

I have said it before and I will say it again. Collider is my favourite.

[JamesMoriarty123]

Sabul wrote...

 Who is to say Thane having a kid with a woman was not him bowing to the pressures of his society rather than a declaration of his own sexuality?

Have you played that portion of the game? That woman was EVERYTHING to him. Get a grip dood, give up the goat. I'd have more time for you if you just accepted a new gay character. As long as people like you keep lobbying to change what IS, then I will always be erring on the side of the big bad green troll.

[JamesMoriarty123]

Double Post.

Modifié par JamesMoriarty123, 13 février 2010 - 12:02 .

[JamesMoriarty123]

My bad, treble post. PC going crazy.

Modifié par JamesMoriarty123, 13 février 2010 - 12:04 .

[Collider]

Jimmy Fury wrote...
Except that changing them to be attracted to humans is exactly the same thing.

uh, NO. They never "changed" them to be attracted to humans. You may as well say that if a person has any sexuality at all, they will jump on next person of the gender they like immediately.

Garrus even states, clearly, that he doesn't have a human fetish.

Because you have to have a fetish to be attracted.

Tali is a quarian and physically can't be intimate with a human without having a suicidal streak.

Terrible example. I guess Shakespeare was "changing" Romeo and Juliet's characters just because they went through great bounds - family feuds among them - for their love. Come on, you don't think people do crazy stuff for love and sex?

These are massively out of character in accordance with how those characters were established. Yet they were done anyway.

Yet again, no. Garrus has absolutely 0% reference to his sexuality in ME1, let alone saying his thoughts on interspecies love/sex with humans. Tali has as well gives 0% indication on her views upon sexuality.

I mean if you want to go with "the only thing we know for certain" then:
-Thane shouldn't be a romance option because the only thing we know for sure is that he is attracted to Drell.
-Jack should be romancable by both sexes because she admits to being bisexual.
-Garrus shouldn't be romancable because he is attracted to Turian females.
-Tali shouldn't be romancable because it could kill her.

Thane, Garrus, Jack, and Tali romances are in only 1 game, dude. /facepalm

This whole "it's out of character based on what we know" argument fails under the weight of its own logical flaws.

This is ironic that you say this. You yourself are saying that Garrus being attracted to female shepard is inconsistent based upon what you "know." Hypocrite much?

Modifié par Collider, 13 février 2010 - 12:04 .

[Erode_The_Soul]

JamesMoriarty123 wrote...
Whats the difficulty for yourself and others in just accepting a new character? Why must you continue to press for a change?

Many of us would welcome that with open arms. I, for one, would much rather Bioware create a bi/homosexual character from the ground up, as they did with their others, because it only seems fair. Bioware are capable of creating fantastic characters, and tacking on a bisexual switch seems cheap to me.

That said, there are some characters within the game already that seem to fit the bill for bisexuality. I'm not personally wanting that, but I CAN see where some of the remarks are coming from.

[biddypocket]

Collider wrote...

DaeJi wrote...
I think fiction overcomes this. Because these characters are fictional, and thus their personalities up the whim of the writers, the effect their sexuality has on the rest of their personality is up to them.

I agree 100%. But it is changing their character if their sexuality is changed, because sexuality is part of their character. If I am foreseeing a possible part of your reply, no, hair color is not an aspect of their character.

Sexuality in a fiction character carries little weight in a game like this, where all it determines is whether or not a character of a certain gender can romance them. Beyond that, nothing is changed. Hence why I have no problem with them altering it.

DaeJi, you said yourself that the effect of sexuality upon a character's personality is up to the writers. Yet now you are saying they carry little weight. The writers know their characters more intimately than you do.

Errr....as stated before, this is a tad moot because you don't really have any proof whatsoever of what their sexual orientation actually is. Moot. MOOT. MOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOT

[tmelange]

On another note, since there was a Kelly, I wanted my male Shep to be able to dally with the engineer -- Donnelly? He was cute, and if Shep was going to run around sexing subordinates, assistants and aliens, I didn't think it should be too much to ask to flirt with the cutie on engineer deck. )

Modifié par tmelange, 13 février 2010 - 12:07 .

[Collider]

biddypocket wrote...
Errr....as stated before, this is a tad moot because you don't really have any proof whatsoever of what their sexual orientation actually is. Moot. MOOT. MOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOT

Yes, because voluntarily sleeping and enjoying sex with a member of the opposite sex is no indication that someone might be heterosexual. MAKES PERFECT SENSE!!!11

[Sabul]

JamesMoriarty123 wrote...

Have you played that portion of the game? That woman was EVERYTHING to him. Get a grip dood, give up the goat. I'd have more time for you if you just accepted a new gay character. As long as people like you keep lobbying to change what IS, then I will always be erring on the side of the big bad green troll.

I actually played the game twice thus far. Sky from Jade Empire loved his wife too. Hell after his wife and daughter were murdered he spent years searching for their killers. He still fell in love with the male player character. My point was just being married does not make your strictly straight. Just as loving someone does not do so. I am all for a new gay or bisexual character in Mass Effect 2 or 3. It just seems like it would be easier for them to reenable all the work they did making previous characters bisexual than creating a whole new one. Either way though I would be happy.

Modifié par Sabul, 13 février 2010 - 12:07 .

[Ryzaki]

tmelange wrote...

On another note, since there was a Kelly, I wanted my male Shep to be able to dally with the engineer -- Donnelly? He was cute, and if Shep was going to run around sexing subordinates, assistants and aliens, I didn't think it should be too much to ask to flirt with the cutie on engineer deck. )

He had a lovely accent. <3

Yet Shep is predefined to be straight. <_<

Modifié par Ryzaki, 13 février 2010 - 12:08 .

[biddypocket]

Collider wrote...

biddypocket wrote...
Errr....as stated before, this is a tad moot because you don't really have any proof whatsoever of what their sexual orientation actually is. Moot. MOOT. MOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOT

Yes, because voluntarily sleeping and enjoying sex with a member of the opposite sex is no indication that someone might be heterosexual. MAKES PERFECT SENSE!!!11

*shrug* what about bisexuality?

OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOHHHHHHHhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.

<3

[Beregar]

Collider wrote...
It does change the character. Suddenly, they are attracted to the male or female form. Sexuality isn't the most important aspect of a person, but it is important. A lot of it has to do with society's gender roles. Genitalia is not the only thing that often characterizes gender. There are plenty of things associated with masculinity and feminity, while they are not the rule, they are often the case.
The latter I can definitely see as being attractive for a female, at least in the biological sense. Men for example, are often more aggressive and protective, and their bodies often represent the ability for both (muscles, etc). A woman can like the archetypal "knight in shining armor."

Now, suddenly these characters are going to be attracted to the same sex? Yes, it is changing them.

I don't understand this. Are you tying behaviour to sexuality? I'm sure I'm misunderstanding but to me it looks like you are saying that "if man acts masculine and protective towards woman he can't be gay - or at least not attracted to other masculine guys". There are plenty of masculine, straight-acting and tough gay guys who prefer other guys with exactly same traits - and even more men who are hiding these feelings because of peer pressure.

Nothing in existing character's behaviour so far has defined them 100% hetero. In fact for example Kaidan has been stereotypically very "unmanly" by talking about his emotions and lives - not about recent galactic events or games or what not. I actually like Kaidan, Jacob, and even Garrus because they show masculine sides. Especially Kaidan's dialogue and behavior gives a sort of bisexual vibe without being all emo boy.

My god. This has exactly no bearing on the conversation. Random,
much? To answer your question, no, I don't pick my friends based upon
sexual orientation. Their sexual orientation, unless they allow it to
be blatantly and obviously define their actions, has no bearing on
whether I could and would consider them a friend.

I feel it had a lot bearing to this conversation because your writing seemed to indicate that if someone acts straight they can't be in fact gay or bisexual. What I was after with my "friends" question is that this is exactly what might have happened with Kaidan and the rest. There are plenty of gay men who hide their homosexuality because they fear peer reaction - especially if the other party is straight acting masculine man. Sadly it's often easier to hide than risk losing a friend. Harder too if the other guy is very straight acting. Even more so if you are unsure about yourself. Peer pressure and emotions don't often mix well (I should know).

This is different, dude. They were either always bisexual or gay, or due to experiences, their sexuality moves towards homosexuality or bisexuality. We're not talking about real life, we are talking about going back to ME2 and rewriting the character's sexuality, thereby changing him. That is not the same as my friend realizing he is gay or bisexual 2 years after I first met him.

I fail to see how they are rewriting character's sexuality if it was never revealed. It is also curious that all present male characters have lost their former girlfriends or wives. Essentially they are single. I mean Tali grew attracted to Shepard, why can't it happen with, say, Kaidan? Especially since he doesn't seem to have any romances after his childhood crush.