1769 réponses à ce sujet

[Collider]

catabuca wrote...

You see, I just don't see why it's so difficult for someone to cope with the fact that each player sees the characters differently based on their own preferences.

James, Kaidan is straight. In your game, and no doubt in an awful lot of other games. In MY game, Kaidan is bi.

That is just player interpretation. That has no bearing on whether characters are ACTUALLY bisexual or whatever. You can hope that someone is heterosexual, bisexual, or homosexual in real life, but that doesn't change their sexuality. I realize you can interpret anything as anything, but it is rather useless to say so.

[DaeJi]

Collider wrote...

DaeJi, you said yourself that the effect of sexuality upon a character's personality is up to the writers. Yet now you are saying they carry little weight. The writers know their characters more intimately than you do.

I am being consistent. My point is that the writiers at BioWare can deteremine what effect sexuality has on the characters, and there is no reason that it has to affect any thing beyond who can romance them.

[JamesMoriarty123]

Sabul wrote...

JamesMoriarty123 wrote...

Have you played that portion of the game? That woman was EVERYTHING to him. Get a grip dood, give up the goat. I'd have more time for you if you just accepted a new gay character. As long as people like you keep lobbying to change what IS, then I will always be erring on the side of the big bad green troll.

I actually played the game twice thus far. Sky from Jade Empire loved his wife too. Hell after his wife and daughter were murdered he spent years searching for their killers. He still fell in love with the male player character. My point was just being married does not make your strictly straight. Just as loving someone does not do so. I am all for a new gay or bisexual character in Mass Effect 2. It just seems like it would be easier for them to reenable all the work they did making previous characters bisexual than creating a whole new one. Either way though I would be happy.

You're referring to an extremely isolated example. The VAST, and I mean VAST amount of men who genuinely love and start a family with a woman are not Bi. As hard as that may be for you to grasp, its the truth.

Like I said, if people stopped trying to screw with the game, and guided the discussion toward a new character inclusion, I would be more open to the debate.

Modifié par JamesMoriarty123, 13 février 2010 - 12:14 .

[tmelange]

Ryzaki wrote...

tmelange wrote...

On another note, since there was a Kelly, I wanted my male Shep to be able to dally with the engineer -- Donnelly? He was cute, and if Shep was going to run around sexing subordinates, assistants and aliens, I didn't think it should be too much to ask to flirt with the cutie on engineer deck. )

He had a lovely accent. <3

Yet Shep is predefined to be straight. <_<

Yes he did! He is a cutie, and I'm sure my male Shep noticed. Plus, he came equipped with his best gal pal/beard.

[Ryzaki]

tmelange wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

tmelange wrote...

On another note, since there was a Kelly, I wanted my male Shep to be able to dally with the engineer -- Donnelly? He was cute, and if Shep was going to run around sexing subordinates, assistants and aliens, I didn't think it should be too much to ask to flirt with the cutie on engineer deck. )

He had a lovely accent. <3

Yet Shep is predefined to be straight. <_<

Yes he did! He is a cutie, and I'm sure my male Shep noticed. Plus, he came equipped with his best gal pal/beard.

I could even imagine him doing a male version of Kelly's dance. And Sheploo being all ":mellow:" like FemShep.

Also: I can't help but lol at the "there's no way they're bisexual!" Like...at the end of the day. Its a video game which means the characters likes and dislikes are totally left to the creator's hands and the player's interpretations Which may or may not depending on fandom mix well together.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 13 février 2010 - 12:15 .

[JamesMoriarty123]

As someone who lives close to the Scottish border, I wouldn't call Donelly's accent convincing...at all.

[SimonTheFrog]

Also, Shepard is always an exception. Everybody wants to sleep with him/her because he/she can kill Threasher Maws and dances like the young John Travolta.

Even heteros would make an exception just for him/her... yeah, its the 23th century. Crazy...

[Beregar]

tmelange wrote...

On another note, since there was a Kelly, I wanted my male Shep to be able to dally with the engineer -- Donnelly? He was cute, and if Shep was going to run around sexing subordinates, assistants and aliens, I didn't think it should be too much to ask to flirt with the cutie on engineer deck. )

True true, I liked him too. Too bad he got turned into protein paste in my game... :/

[SimonTheFrog]

Beregar wrote...

tmelange wrote...

On another note, since there was a Kelly, I wanted my male Shep to be able to dally with the engineer -- Donnelly? He was cute, and if Shep was going to run around sexing subordinates, assistants and aliens, I didn't think it should be too much to ask to flirt with the cutie on engineer deck. )

True true, I liked him too. Too bad he got turned into protein paste in my game... :/

Yeah, that's a turn off... 

[DaeJi]

SimonTheFrog wrote...

Yeah, that's a turn off... 

Only if you let it be.

[Ryzaki]

SimonTheFrog wrote...

Also, Shepard is always an exception. Everybody wants to sleep with him/her because he/she can kill Threasher Maws and dances like the young John Travolta.
Even heteros would make an exception just for him/her... yeah, its the 23th century. Crazy...

Is it just me or did Shep's dancing get WORSE? 

Like honestly I can't help but cringe.

[Sabul]

JamesMoriarty123 wrote...

You're referring to an extremely isolated example. The VAST, and I mean VAST amount of men who genuinely love a woman are not Bi. As hard as that may be for you to grasp, its the truth.

Like I said, if people stopped trying to screw with the game, and guided the discussion toward a new character inclusion, I would be more open to the debate.

Actually as I said it made up most of our gay population up until the 1970's. I never said all married men are bisexual. Good god that would suck. I simply said being married did not automatically make you heterosexual.  Considering Thane was one of the characters who is said to have had his bisexuality cut it is not much of a stretch to assume that is how it could have been in his case.

I am not trying to screw with the game. I adore it in fact. It was vastly superior to the first in many ways. In others not so much. That is not up for debate however. You really must understand though. A character is not defined by their sexuality. Making them an option for a gay male Shepard as intended would not change them in any way.

Modifié par Sabul, 13 février 2010 - 12:20 .

[DaeJi]

Ryzaki wrote...

Is it just me or did Shep's dancing get WORSE? 

Like honestly I can't help but cringe.

It got worse. A lot worse.

Hmmm, maybe Shepard really isn't gay.

[Collider]

Beregar wrote...
I don't understand this. Are you tying behaviour to sexuality?

No, not really. I am completley in favor of the view that there is no "heterosexual" or "homosexual" behavior if it is not coupled with genuine heterosexual or homosexual sexual desire respectively. IE. A man with a lisp is not necessarily homosexual, despite the fact that speaking with a lisp is often stereotyped as a characteristic of gay men.

I'm sure I'm misunderstanding but to me it looks like you are saying that "if man acts masculine and protective towards woman he can't be gay - or at least not attracted to other masculine guys". There are plenty of masculine, straight-acting and tough gay guys who prefer other guys with exactly same traits - and even more men who are hiding these feelings because of peer pressure.

Nothing in existing character's behaviour so far has defined them 100%
hetero. In fact for example Kaidan has been stereotypically very
"unmanly" by talking about his emotions and lives - not about recent
galactic events or games or what not. I actually like Kaidan, Jacob,
and even Garrus because they show masculine sides. Especially Kaidan's
dialogue and behavior gives a sort of bisexual vibe without being all
emo boy.

You are misunderstanding, I'm afraid. I'm not saying this at all. I hate to say this, but in light of you saying that Kaidan seems to be bisexual, you are being a bit of a hypocrite.

I feel it had a lot bearing to this conversation because your writing seemed to indicate that if someone acts straight they can't be in fact gay or bisexual. What I was after with my "friends" question is that this is exactly what might have happened with Kaidan and the rest. There are plenty of gay men who hide their homosexuality because they fear peer reaction - especially if the other party is straight acting masculine man. Sadly it's often easier to hide than risk losing a friend. Harder too if the other guy is very straight acting. Even more so if you are unsure about yourself. Peer pressure and emotions don't often mix well (I should know).

No, you are misintepretating me, like I said. I have nothing against Bioware having Kaidan admit being bisexual in ME3. What I WOULD have a problem with is Bioware going back to ME1 and making him bisexual/bisexual romance option, therefore changing his character. Get it? If he was always bisexual, they are changing his character in that he was originally
a) Not attracted to male shepard at the time
or
Did not want to reveal his bisexuality at the time.

I fail to see how they are rewriting character's sexuality if it was never revealed. It is also curious that all present male characters have lost their former girlfriends or wives. Essentially they are single. I mean Tali grew attracted to Shepard, why can't it happen with, say, Kaidan? Especially since he doesn't seem to have any romances after his childhood crush.

It is rewriting the character, because male and female shepard can act exactly the same. Yet, people are wanting Bioware to go back and suddenly make these characters interested in the same sex. I have no problem with Kaidan getting it on with male shepard in ME3. But what I have a problem with is Bioware retconning - meaning going back to ME1 and ME2 and changing his character - to appease the small minority of people who want it

Modifié par Collider, 13 février 2010 - 12:20 .

[Beregar]

Collider wrote...
Yes, because voluntarily sleeping and enjoying sex with a member of the opposite sex is no indication that someone might be heterosexual. MAKES PERFECT SENSE!!!11

People do crazy things. Especially if they are young. I'm quite sure many gay men have had sex with women if they were in the "confused about sexuality" stage. That or they are bisexuals and swing both ways. None of the npc characters in ME or ME2 had ongoing relationships to my knowledge so it's hard to say if they are heterosexual.

[Ryzaki]

DaeJi wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Is it just me or did Shep's dancing get WORSE? 

Like honestly I can't help but cringe.

It got worse. A lot worse.

Hmmm, maybe Shepard really isn't gay.

Truth. That dancing was atrocious. I couldn't help but go. ":mellow:" When I first saw it. Of course I burst out laughing 2 seconds later but still. *shakes head*

[JamesMoriarty123]

DaeJi wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Is it just me or did Shep's dancing get WORSE? 

Like honestly I can't help but cringe.

It got worse. A lot worse.

Hmmm, maybe Shepard really isn't gay.

QTF. Straight guys can't dance to save their lives. Sheperd is as straight as they come with that dance.

[biddypocket]

DaeJi wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Is it just me or did Shep's dancing get WORSE? 

Like honestly I can't help but cringe.

It got worse. A lot worse.

Hmmm, maybe Shepard really isn't gay.

haha

[Collider]

Beregar wrote...

Collider wrote...
Yes, because voluntarily sleeping and enjoying sex with a member of the opposite sex is no indication that someone might be heterosexual. MAKES PERFECT SENSE!!!11

People do crazy things. Especially if they are young. I'm quite sure many gay men have had sex with women if they were in the "confused about sexuality" stage. That or they are bisexuals and swing both ways. None of the npc characters in ME or ME2 had ongoing relationships to my knowledge so it's hard to say if they are heterosexual.

Beregar, notice that I said enjoying. People experiment with their sexualities, yes. The important thing is whether they enjoyed it, and were sexually attracted to the gender of the person they were having sex with. In the case you presented, these gay men did not enjoy the sex with the women, or at the very least did not find themselves sexually attracted to these women.

[Ryzaki]

JamesMoriarty123 wrote...

DaeJi wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Is it just me or did Shep's dancing get WORSE? 

Like honestly I can't help but cringe.

It got worse. A lot worse.

Hmmm, maybe Shepard really isn't gay.

QTF. Straight guys can't dance to save their lives. Sheperd is as straight as they come with that dance.

...Tis a joke right? 

Its hard to tell.

[JamesMoriarty123]

Well, I really am out this time. Spent waaay too much time arguing the toss in this thread over the last week.

From this point on, dead horse and all that. Everything that can be said, has been said. All the problems, arguments, counter arguments, trolling, flaming, etc.

To repeat yourself ad infinitum is just daft.

[Jimmy Fury]

Collider wrote...
Because you have to have a fetish to be attracted.

"I don't have a human fetish or anything" means he does not find human sexually attractive and his interest in Shep is based purely on Shep as a person. Pay attention now.

Terrible example. I guess Shakespeare was "changing" Romeo and Juliet's characters just because they went through great bounds - family feuds among them - for their love. Come on, you don't think people do crazy stuff for love and sex?

Wow. Pot meet kettle. Romeo+Juliet have nothing to do with Tali... I mean if you went to get all into it i could argue that they're 1: idiot teenagers and 2: symbolism but I won't. I could also get into how shakespear wrote them to be emotionally tempestuous and apt to do insane things at the drop of a hat (again, the whole symbolism thing... they're not real people they're representations of the insanity of young love and how it can go so incredibly wrong...)
But all of that is irrelivant. You were saying that any changes to the established personalities of the characters would break the game. Tali stated, on multiple occasions, that she can't take off her mask without suffering an extreme allergic reaction that would very likely end in her death.

Yet again, no. Garrus has absolutely 0% reference to his sexuality in ME1, let alone saying his thoughts on interspecies love/sex with humans. Tali has as well gives 0% indication on her views upon sexuality.

Yet again... not attracted to humans... in his own words...

Thane, Garrus, Jack, and Tali romances are in only 1 game, dude. /facepalm

Yes. And by your reasoning they should not be. Thane had a wife, a drell wife, by your reasoning that showing attraction to a specific individual defines ones sexuality then Thane can't be xenophilic because he can only be attracted to Drell.

This is ironic that you say this. You yourself are saying that Garrus being attracted to female shepard is inconsistent based upon what you "know." Hypocrite much?

The irony was the point. i was using your reasoning to show how your argument doesn't work.

Modifié par Jimmy Fury, 13 février 2010 - 12:23 .

[Ryzaki]

JamesMoriarty123 wrote...

Well, I really am out this time. Spent waaay too much time arguing the toss in this thread over the last week.
From this point on, dead horse and all that. Everything that can be said, has been said. All the problems, arguments, counter arguments, trolling, flaming, etc.
To repeat yourself ad infinitum is just daft.

That's...rather ironic.

[DaeJi]

JamesMoriarty123 wrote...

Well, I really am out this time. Spent waaay too much time arguing the toss in this thread over the last week.
From this point on, dead horse and all that. Everything that can be said, has been said. All the problems, arguments, counter arguments, trolling, flaming, etc.
To repeat yourself ad infinitum is just daft.

K.

[Sabul]

Seriously is there a ribbon or something we can give to Collider? Hands down the best person to argue with this topic has produced. He is open minded yet up for a well thought out debate. If only there were more detractors like him.