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[Jimmy Fury]

Grilled Trout wrote...

This is funny. If anyone comes in here, making his/her opinion that gay romance is not preferred and not wanted in Mass Effect universe, he/she is automatically labeled a troll, just for having a difference of opinion. Then, when someone like me starts a thread to express my protest against this idea, some of the participants immediately jump into that thread and start making offensive and unnecessary insults. And then, the thread creator gets called a troll. On top of that, any thread started in the interest of contempt for such idea gets closed down by the moderators, which kicks everyone back to this thread.

So basically, most of the people who have been beating the dead horse for about 300 pages total feel that anyone who has difference of opinion should just be quiet and not post, because this is the only thread that can exist regarding this issue (since the moderators keep closing down any other threads) and that anyone with a differing opinion is automatically a troll?

You guys keep accusing people of being hypocrite and ignorant, but it is this kind of behavior that I feel is hypocrite and ignorant. If you are going to accuse someone of being whatever, then you might as well look into a mirror and reflect on your own words and behaviors.

Why don't people read my posts...
I try so hard to welcome everyone who wants to discuss the topic and I listen and I understand and I even agree sometimes.  All for naught.

sigh
The other threads gets closed down because they were:
1: Spam. This thread is here for everyone to discuss the topic and making a new thread while this is open is the definition of Spam according to the TOS we all agreed to when we made our forum accounts
2: Hostility. Every other thread started by the opposition has been titled in a way that denotes hostility. Name calling, rage, general contempt, whatever the wording is, it's inflamitory and immature.
3: Flame wars and name calling. Most of the threads started by our side have been closed for fighting too. It isn't just the ones started by the other side. The last one was closed because The Great and Powerful Woo (not sarcasm, he really is  a:wizard:!) wanted us to start fresh since we had become all nice and civil with each other. Clean Slate thread if you will.

Anyway, I don't think everyone with a differing opinion is a troll. I welcome differing opinions because I really want to find a middle-ground solution that will satisfy all parties involved.
It's the people who come in "Shepard can't be a *** he has a gun!" that are trolls. And ReD. Who I only labeled a troll after he refused to participate in reasonable discussion with me.

[Sabul]

I thought I have been pretty welcoming as well. I really enjoyed having Collider around I hope he returns. :c

[Jimmy Fury]

see! We post saying we welcome all opinions presented in a reasonable manner and the guy who accuses us of being intolerant hypocrites says nothing in return.

[Grilled Trout]

sw33ts,



I have never used the word "disgusting" to describe what you all are asking for in Mass Effect universe. Don't jump to conclusion. This has nothing to do with anti-homosexual social thinking or bias or prejudice towards a certain group. This is purely a gaming issue.



If the first two games in the trilogy have been released with a male Shepard that has clearly not been gay, why are you guys trying to change that? It is already established as is. And don't talk to me about how the male Shepard was gay in development but did not make it out to release. Things get cut or changed in development all the time. What counts is what makes it out to release. Besides that, where is the clear proof that this was the case? Someone show me a reliable and credible source and I will believe that.



As a gamer, I have my own individual preference when it comes to gaming. I look for certain things because they are enjoyable, and I stay away from things that are not enjoyable. Having even a remote possibility that I might stumble upon engaging in a homosexual activity is not desirable and not enjoyable for me.



You talk about how it can all be "optional" but it really isn't. If I were to be talking to a male character, at some point, I will still be given the dialogue option of homosexual nature and I will be seeing that on screen, which is bothersome for me. And what makes it even more disturbing is that so far, all of the romance sequences upto this point from the very beginning have been triggered by the AI characters, not Shepard. The AI characters start hinting something about their romantic interest in my Shepard, and then I am asked to respond accordingly. Are you asking me to be forced to listen to such dialogue in a homosexual nature? Once you put this mechanic into the game, everyone will have to be exposed to it, some way or the other.



Someone in the previous thread talked about how homosexual romance option can be turned on or off in the options screen, and although that is an admirable solution, I highly doubt it is going to happen, or make much of a sense. As a developer, you either put homosexual relationship element in the game or you don't. I haven't heard anything about any option to turn this function on or off in Dragon Age: Origins. And that game is also made by Bioware.



You don't have to agree with me because you are entitled to your opinion as much as I am entitled to mine. My problem isn't that you are talking about supporting something that I don't want to support. My problem is with certain people who sure seem to have double standard. If the moderators want everyone to stick to just THIS thread to talk about gay romance in Mass Effect universe, then obviously people like me that are in disagreement will have to talk about it here. Any attempts like my previous attempt to try not to disturb the pro-gay group by starting another thread was met with hostile remarks that were hypocrite and ignorant. And then the mods close the thread, asking to participate in this thread.



I have a few homosexual friends, male and female. I have no prejudice or bias against them, and see them as human beings all the same. As long as they don't try to force me into an awkward homosexual situations, we are all good. Obviously, the game introducing this very concept would mean that I will be exposed to it one way or the other, and that's where I have my concern. Call me any names you want, but this was one of the many reasons I didn't play Dragon Age: Origins. You certainly don't see me walking into Dragon Age forums and start talking offensive remarks about a certain group of people though, do you?

[PyroFreak301]

Grilled Trout wrote...
If the first two games in the trilogy have been released with a male Shepard that has clearly not been gay, why are you guys trying to change that? It is already established as is. And don't talk to me about how the male Shepard was gay in development but did not make it out to release. Things get cut or changed in development all the time. What counts is what makes it out to release. Besides that, where is the clear proof that this was the case? Someone show me a reliable and credible source and I will believe that.

Only a small part, but it's proof the voices were recorded.

Modifié par PyroFreak301, 13 février 2010 - 03:17 .

[Sabul]

You beat me to it Pyro. :c

[KumoriOokami]

Grilled Trout wrote...

I have a few homosexual friends, male and female. I have no prejudice or bias against them, and see them as human beings all the same. As long as they don't try to force me into an awkward homosexual situations, we are all good. Obviously, the game introducing this very concept would mean that I will be exposed to it one way or the other, and that's where I have my concern. Call me any names you want, but this was one of the many reasons I didn't play Dragon Age: Origins. You certainly don't see me walking into Dragon Age forums and start talking offensive remarks about a certain group of people though, do you?

I know you said it was only one of the reasons you didn't play DA, but I just wanted to say it's really easy to avoid that as the romances in that game are a pretty minor part of it.  As long as you don't bring along your male rogue he won't be making any comments.  ^^; 

[FataliTensei]

ya gotta love youtube

[Sabul]

Grilled Trout: I actually posted a solution for ME3 you would like I think. In ME2 should you not romance any of your squad mates Mordin makes comments thinking you are interested in him. Now what if this scene were needed to have been seen in an imported save in order to unlock m/m romances in ME3? You would have no chance of having your Shepard being hit on while we would still have our option.



There was also another solution of a optional DLC released alongside the launch that would enable m/m and f/f romance options. Would either of these solutions offend you?

[KumoriOokami]

I'd also like to see the 'romance' dialogue options more clearly labeled to avoid my Shepard accidentally saying awkward things to people and confusing everyone. ^^;

[SorenTrigg]

Also, I just want to know, *why* does the option even existing pose such a problem? Just don't pick it. It...is not that big of a deal.

No one is forcing your hand, Trout. You just have to say 'No thanks'. Like you do as a female with Liara.



Females had the same option as in that video, if Liara is interested in you, you can pick "Sorry, I am only interested in men." I imagine if Bioware actually put same-sex relationships into the game again, you would get that option if a character was flirting with you.

[Sabul]

Someone also suggested making the responses that initiate romances with characters green. Would also help me not feel bad for having my Paragon Shepard reject female characters just because I wanted to know their backstories.

[KumoriOokami]

Sabul wrote...

Someone also suggested making the responses that initiate romances with characters green. Would also help me not feel bad for having my Paragon Shepard reject female characters just because I wanted to know their backstories.

This is definitely a great idea.  I hate having to have my Paragon be rude to someone just because I clicked the wrong option.  ^^;

[Jimmy Fury]

Sabul wrote...
There was also another solution of a optional DLC released alongside the launch that would enable m/m and f/f romance options. Would either of these solutions offend you?

Also the option to bring new characters in via expansion between now and ME3.
Introduce 2 new characters via expansion. 1 male and 1 female.
Both can be romancable by either male or female Shepards.
But only 1 of them can be recruited at the end of the mission.
This way everyone gets a new squad member. Everyone gets new LI's. People who want a gay or lesbian option have it. And people who never want to see anything remotely gay, can simply pick the opposite sex squady. If you play male shep, pick the female and you never have to see a guy be even slightly flirtatious.

[Edit]
Also, it seems that this would also be the most logical path for bringing back characters from ME1 as proper members of the team. I don't think any of us want to see another full game devoted to zooming around and finding people then getting an astonishingly short ending battle....
Could easily make 2 expansions though. 1 to bring back Liara and Wrex(if he's alive obviously) and the Other to bring back either Ash or Kaidan.

Modifié par Jimmy Fury, 13 février 2010 - 03:35 .

[Sabul]

KumoriOokami wrote...

This is definitely a great idea.  I hate having to have my Paragon be rude to someone just because I clicked the wrong option.  ^^;

I am much the same. I play games as myself. That is I pick the options that me myself would feel comfortable with. I am the person who always plays Paragon because renegade makes him feel uncomfortable. I tried to get through a dark side playthrough in KOTOR. Did not happen. I felt horrible after my first murder. I reloaded the save prior and did a Grey Jedi playthrough instead. I have replayed that game so many times but never managed the dark side. It is just not me. So having myself just being nice always cause character to fall for me is troublesome.

Modifié par Sabul, 13 février 2010 - 03:35 .

[PyroFreak301]

Grilled Trout wrote...
As a gamer, I have my own individual preference when it comes to gaming. I look for certain things because they are enjoyable, and I stay away from things that are not enjoyable. Having even a remote possibility that I might stumble upon engaging in a homosexual activity is not desirable and not enjoyable for me.

You talk about how it can all be "optional" but it really isn't. If I were to be talking to a male character, at some point, I will still be given the dialogue option of homosexual nature and I will be seeing that on screen, which is bothersome for me. And what makes it even more disturbing is that so far, all of the romance sequences upto this point from the very beginning have been triggered by the AI characters, not Shepard. The AI characters start hinting something about their romantic interest in my Shepard, and then I am asked to respond accordingly. Are you asking me to be forced to listen to such dialogue in a homosexual nature? Once you put this mechanic into the game, everyone will have to be exposed to it, some way or the other.

I didn't particularly like the way romance was forced in this game. Playing as femShep and trying to talk to Jacob when your conversation options are 'Aggresive Flirt', 'Neutral Flirt', and '****ty Flirt' was pretty off putting for me. We're in agreement that Shepard should take the full initiative as far as romance is concerned, especially in the case of same sex where it does have the potential to put people off.

That being said, I believe it could be done more than tastefully enough to not feel you have to avoid characters else be faced with the situation. If you made the conversation starter fairly hidden, like a subtree of conversation, any player that wanted a romance could do a bit of digging and find the dialoge option , while other people could just breeze past it without the NPC showing the slightest bit of romantic interest. Would something like this put your mind at ease more?

Someone in the previous thread talked about how homosexual romance option can be turned on or off in the options screen, and although that is an admirable solution, I highly doubt it is going to happen, or make much of a sense. As a developer, you either put homosexual relationship element in the game or you don't. I haven't heard anything about any option to turn this function on or off in Dragon Age: Origins. And that game is also made by Bioware.

A toggle button would probably be seen as more offensive than just throwing it in game. Being able to turn gay on/off is somewhat comparable to turning a certain race on/off.

A better idea that's been mentioned a couple of times is optional DLC called "Extended Romance" or something to that effect, and that would simply unlock all the M/M and F/F romance options. All the advantages of a toggle switch without being offensive.

You don't have to agree with me because you are entitled to your opinion as much as I am entitled to mine. My problem isn't that you are talking about supporting something that I don't want to support. My problem is with certain people who sure seem to have double standard. If the moderators want everyone to stick to just THIS thread to talk about gay romance in Mass Effect universe, then obviously people like me that are in disagreement will have to talk about it here. Any attempts like my previous attempt to try not to disturb the pro-gay group by starting another thread was met with hostile remarks that were hypocrite and ignorant. And then the mods close the thread, asking to participate in this thread.

I have a few homosexual friends, male and female. I have no prejudice or bias against them, and see them as human beings all the same. As long as they don't try to force me into an awkward homosexual situations, we are all good. Obviously, the game introducing this very concept would mean that I will be exposed to it one way or the other, and that's where I have my concern. Call me any names you want, but this was one of the many reasons I didn't play Dragon Age: Origins. You certainly don't see me walking into Dragon Age forums and start talking offensive remarks about a certain group of people though, do you?

No-one is contesting that you're allowed to have an opinion, we simply oppose your opinion. The difference between you and some others that frequent this thread is that you have given well writen reasons as to why you're against it, and I respect that.

Also, I would highly recommend playing DA:O despite Zevran. An avoidable 20 second convo pales in significance to the scale of an 80 hour game. Not to mention the game itself is pretty awesome.

Modifié par PyroFreak301, 13 février 2010 - 03:47 .

[FataliTensei]

i wish wanting to get to know someone didn't count as flirting

[KumoriOokami]

FataliTensei wrote...

i wish wanting to get to know someone didn't count as flirting

I know!  Actually my favorite DA relationship/friendship was the female Warden/Morrigan one, so much so that if I was so technically inclined I would have liked to have that option for my male Warden playthrough.  The whole 'meaningful female friendship' option is not around enough imho.

[Sabul]

You can have a meaningful friendship with Morrigan as a male Warden. However you do need to reject her to do so. :c

Modifié par Sabul, 13 février 2010 - 03:47 .

[sw33ts]

Grilled Trout wrote...

sw33ts,

I have never used the word "disgusting" to describe what you all are asking for in Mass Effect universe. Don't jump to conclusion. This has nothing to do with anti-homosexual social thinking or bias or prejudice towards a certain group. This is purely a gaming issue.

First, I'd like to say thank you for responding to me and then I'd like to say, that I was not speaking to you in the disgusting bit.  If you read it again I say the random TROLLS say this.  I don't consider you a troll, unless you consider yourself a troll.

Grilled Trout wrote...
If the first two games in the trilogy have been released with a
male Shepard that has clearly not been gay, why are you guys trying to
change that? It is already established as is. And don't talk to me
about how the male Shepard was gay in development but did not make it
out to release. Things get cut or changed in development all the time.
What counts is what makes it out to release. Besides that, where is the
clear proof that this was the case? Someone show me a reliable and
credible source and I will believe that.

In the first two games, YOUR Shepard has not been clearly gay.  In the 2nd game, because it's fresh on my mind, maleShep can tease Mordin about hitting on him.  Hinting that that it's possible for YOUR shepard to be gay if he'd like him to be.  Yes things do get cut out in the game all the time, but would it bother you so much if we were given just a bit of that cut dialogue?

Grilled Trout wrote...
As a gamer, I have my own individual preference when it comes to
gaming. I look for certain things because they are enjoyable, and I
stay away from things that are not enjoyable. Having even a remote
possibility that I might stumble upon engaging in a homosexual activity
is not desirable and not enjoyable for me.

We all have certain things we find enjoyable.  I enjoy shooting things in the head and then watching their heads explode via Fallout 3...oh how i love thee.  Why is it not desireable to you?  You can always turn down the advances.  I was none too pleased when my FemShep was all over Jacob JUST when she started talking to him.  >.>

My Paragon Shepard has the ability to punch people in the face but because she's my paragon Shep based off of me.  I choose to to not punch people in the face.  If the gay romances are put in the game.  You also would be able to ignore the advances or completely shut it down.  It's not like Jack starts dry humping you after you help her, why would a gay character be any different?  Just because it's one of the options doesn't mean you have to choose it.   It doesn't make YOUR Shepard any less straight, because after all he is YOURShepard and if YOUR shepard doesn't feel that way about whomever he doesnt' have to say he does.

Grilled Trout wrote...
You talk about how it can all be "optional" but it really isn't. If I
were to be talking to a male character, at some point, I will still be
given the dialogue option of homosexual nature and I will be seeing
that on screen, which is bothersome for me. And what makes it even more
disturbing is that so far, all of the romance sequences upto this point
from the very beginning have been triggered by the AI characters, not
Shepard. The AI characters start hinting something about their romantic
interest in my Shepard, and then I am asked to respond accordingly. Are
you asking me to be forced to listen to such dialogue in a homosexual
nature? Once you put this mechanic into the game, everyone will have to
be exposed to it, some way or the other.

But it IS optional, yes it will be on your screen but your mouse doesn't suddenly take over and forces you to the DARK SIDE dun dun dun...
The only person I can think of that's like I WANT U BAD is Miranda with her little lingering touch.  I mentioned this in an earlier gay topic and maybe u'd like this option.  The option is basically if you already have an LI then in the beginning screen, you know like when you import a chracter and it has LI, there will be a new section called crush of which you can choose varous other people.  Personally I'd leave Liara for Tali in a heartbeat so even though Liara is my LI I could now have Tali hit on me.  You however can choose no one as your Crush and then no one of the same sex will hit on you.  Yay?  Nay? Olay?...kay i'll stop now.

Grilled Trout wrote...
Someone in the previous thread talked about how homosexual romance
option can be turned on or off in the options screen, and although that
is an admirable solution, I highly doubt it is going to happen, or make
much of a sense. As a developer, you either put homosexual relationship
element in the game or you don't. I haven't heard anything about any
option to turn this function on or off in Dragon Age: Origins. And that
game is also made by Bioware.

I don't however agree with turn on turn off screen it's like it'd be some sort of VILE thing.  I don't think my sexual preference is vile...

Grilled Trout wrote...
You don't have to agree with me because you are entitled to your
opinion as much as I am entitled to mine. My problem isn't that you are
talking about supporting something that I don't want to support. My
problem is with certain people who sure seem to have double standard.
If the moderators want everyone to stick to just THIS thread to talk
about gay romance in Mass Effect universe, then obviously people like
me that are in disagreement will have to talk about it here. Any
attempts like my previous attempt to try not to disturb the pro-gay
group by starting another thread was met with hostile remarks that were
hypocrite and ignorant. And then the mods close the thread, asking to
participate in this thread.

I admire you for coming in here and speaking your mind on the subject.  I don't however admire people who troll, yes on both sides of the fence...so yes I suppose we can agree on that, but you have to understand most of us put up with annoying people who try our patiences all the time so we can never tell if Billy is trying to start a decent conversation or fire us up.  So we're a bit tense.  It's fine to disagree.  It is.  It is however not fine to come in here say "ew" and leave or come back in here saying things like GAYS ARE NASTY or SHEPARD HAS A GUN SO HE CAN'T BE GAY.  That's silly.  That'd be like me saying MEN ARE MEN THEY CAN'T HAVE FEELINGS.  Streotypes aren't fun and I'm sure you realize that since I'm sure you've been stereotyped unfairly.  In this topic, or topics like this maybe?

Grilled Trout wrote...
I have a few homosexual friends, male and female. I have no prejudice
or bias against them, and see them as human beings all the same. As
long as they don't try to force me into an awkward homosexual
situations, we are all good. Obviously, the game introducing this very
concept would mean that I will be exposed to it one way or the other,
and that's where I have my concern. Call me any names you want, but
this was one of the many reasons I didn't play Dragon Age: Origins. You
certainly don't see me walking into Dragon Age forums and start talking
offensive remarks about a certain group of people though, do you?

See, now I understand where you're coming from, someone forcing themselves on you.  Earlier in this post I stated that we could do a Crush option similar to the import screen.  Would you be up for that?  Do you have any other kind of input as to how BW could implement it if they wished to?  By the way as the guy before me stated you should SO PLAY DRAGON AGE.  BEHEADINGS.  I sound really crazy don't I?  lol...beheadings...blowing heads to pieces...okay I digress.  But yeah I too was uncomfortable when Zevaran was all OHOHO I'm gay and I sleep with people, but he is who he is and it FIT with his character.  He even explains why he is how he is in the game. Frankly he wasn't my cup of tea, but it doesn't ruin the good game.  All you have to do is be nice to him and let him down easy.  I mean I'm sure weird ppl come up to you and flirt with you all the time.  Are you offended?  Me, no so much.  I just lie and say I'm seeing someone or I'm gay/straight depending on the person.  Yeah, yeah...I know that's not good...but hey it's better than going ew your nasty.  How dare you approach me?  Go away.

Modifié par sw33ts, 13 février 2010 - 03:57 .

[KumoriOokami]

Sabul wrote...

You can have a meaningful friendship with Morrigan as a male Warden. However you do need to reject her to do so. :c

Well as long as there's an option to reject her in a kind way I guess that's alright.  ^^  Usually the options are pretty extreme one way or the other though.  

[Sabul]

KumoriOokami wrote...

Well as long as there's an option to reject her in a kind way I guess that's alright.  ^^  Usually the options are pretty extreme one way or the other though.  

Yeah iirc you need to be in a relationship with another character to do so though. You tell her that you are in love with so and so and she is let down pretty easily. All the other options are really rude.

[LOST SPARTANJLC]

Exactly , Grilled Trout I mean you shouldn't even have to explain yourself.And even when you do , it's never good enough for some.You , I and others on here who are in the male/female group voice our opinion's and suddenly it's a call to arms.



Against someone who offered a fair opinion on the thread that differed from someone's opinion in the male/male or female/female.Then you get called crap or someone tries to pull apart everything said as an opinion.



Now certainly not all who are in the same sex group act this way.Just like you can have idiots in the male/female group , you've got idiots in the same sex group.

[Sabul]

LOST SPARTANJLC: I am fairly certain none of us called him any names.

[KumoriOokami]

Sabul wrote...

KumoriOokami wrote...

Well as long as there's an option to reject her in a kind way I guess that's alright.  ^^  Usually the options are pretty extreme one way or the other though.  

Yeah iirc you need to be in a relationship with another character to do so though. You tell her that you are in love with so and so and she is let down pretty easily. All the other options are really rude.

Cool thanks :innocent: I will give this a go on my next playthrough.