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[Jimmy Fury]

Again Sabul has beaten me to the punch.

That's what I get for being distracted by sad-making clips on youtube (search Jimmy/Coop and I dare you not to get misty eyed...)



Those audio files are pretty much responsible for this thread lol. Nobody quite understands why they were removed so we're trying to make it very clear that there is a market out there in case they removed it because they didn't think there was one.

[Collider]

BrianWilly wrote...
I do agree on this point in theory, though I will point out that making a homosexual romance in the first game and then coquettishly backpeddling from that sort of content in the second game is very suspect,

Uh, how did they backpeddle? Liara still kisses female Shepard. Kelly is still a romance option for female shepard. Morinth is still a romance option for female shepard. Samara is still a romance for female shepard. There is no backpeddling whatsoever.

The exclusion of homosexual content does not necessarily indicate homophobia on Bioware's part, that is very true.  But, but to blunt, it sends a very clear message.  That message might not be "We hate gays," but it can nonetheless be nearly as exclusionary.

Uh, no. Ever consider that the new characters are simply not homosexual or bisexual? There is no quota that Bioware must fulfill, and you are simply reading too much into this if you think that Bioware is making a political statement whatsoever.

"We're not comfortable putting gays in this product."

Bull****. If there are no homosexual characters in Halo, does that mean Bungie falls under any of these ridiculous quotes? NO.

"Gay women are acceptable characters in our game.  Gay guys are not."

Like I said, you are assuming things here. We have 0% indication that gay men are not acceptable. That would run contradictory to Dragon Age, yes, Zevran is bisexual, but the homosexual romance option is there. Gay male romances were never in Mass Effect to begin with.

"Commander Shepard's race, gender, life history, skillset, interests, spirituality, temperment, world views, and choice of nine romantic interests between the two games are all up for you to decide...except that he can't be gay, that's totally pre-defined."

Obviously, there are limits to roleplaying in general, independent of sexuality. You cannot, for example, join Saren. Nor can you express interests in Joker, EDI, or whatever.

And so on and so forth.  Let's me try to be clearer on this point: no game in the world is obligated to do anything at all, much less adding an option to make the protaganist gay.  But when your company has a history of being open to this sort of content, and when your game itself seems flawlessly designed to accomodate that sort of content (with its emphasis on choice and character development and wide range of diverse romantic options) to the point where the exclusion of said content would feel more conspicuous than otherwise, and then you go ahead and specifically exclude that content...well, that sends a message all right, loud and clear.

It sends no message. The very fact that homosexual romances were included in the first place is extraordinary. To insist Bioware is making a political statement - or any of these quotes - by not including it is insulting. You do not work at Bioware, all you are just projecting your own interpretations unto their actions and insisting they are obvious and clear. How narrow-minded.

Modifié par Collider, 14 février 2010 - 08:15 .

[AnathamaDye]

Sabul wrote...

They intended both m/m and  f/f.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Mwiqq-Y5r4

Dialog was recorded, scenes scripted and animated, as well as put into the story. The content is on the game disks finished or near finished. It was disabled near release. However can be reenabled via mods. The romance options for ME2 were supposed to be Thane and Jack as bisexuals.

Gasp!  Why would they disable those?  Is there a chance for them to have these as a DLC or something? 

[Collider]

AnathamaDye wrote...
Gasp!  Why would they disable those?  Is there a chance for them to have these as a DLC or something? 

You can reenable them through modding. As for being DLC, I am doubtful, as well as hopeful to the contrary.

[Jimmy Fury]

Yeah... see for a minute I felt bad that I had misinterpreted that whole "you can't have that opinion but I can have mine" thing. Especially with that "I argue the points not the people" addition later.
I don't anymore.
Now I'm just confused as to why Collider is so hostile to everyone who disagrees with him except Sabul...

-edit-
And before you claim I'm just misunderstanding again, I'll be specific.
"um no." "uh no." and "bull****" "NO" and "How narrow minded" are not condusive to a civil discussion. They are patronizing, some are borderline hostile, and the latter is personal.

Modifié par Jimmy Fury, 14 février 2010 - 08:20 .

[Sabul]

AnathamaDye wrote...

Gasp!  Why would they disable those?  Is there a chance for them to have these as a DLC or something? 

That is what this topic is more or less about. Only it is generally considered too late for Mass Effect. Most people just want the option enabled in ME2, new bisexual squad mates, or the option finally available in ME3.

Jimmy Fury: I am so glad to have you back man. Was getting to be too much for me.

[Collider]

Jimmy Fury wrote...

Yeah... see for a minute I felt bad that I had misinterpreted that whole "you can't have that opinion but I can have mine" thing. Especially with that "I argue the points not the people" addition later.
I don't anymore.
Now I'm just confused as to why Collider is so hostile to everyone who disagrees with him except Sabul...

I am not intentionally trying to seem hostile. I have no ill will towards you. I am simply giving reason to my arguments and my opinions.

[Sabul]

Jimmy Fury wrote...

Yeah... see for a minute I felt bad that I had misinterpreted that whole "you can't have that opinion but I can have mine" thing. Especially with that "I argue the points not the people" addition later.
I don't anymore.
Now I'm just confused as to why Collider is so hostile to everyone who disagrees with him except Sabul...

I actually feel bad about this. I just try to not let the debate get in the way of how I view people. We may have different opinions but I still respect him. Collider is at least open to discussion. Unlike some people who post in this topic. His points are well thought out and he is open to gay characters. Just not going in and adding it to a game already released. I can understand his stance.

Modifié par Sabul, 14 février 2010 - 08:23 .

[BrianWilly]

Sabul wrote...

Heh, listening to that conversation tree just once again reinforces how silly the whole "Asari aren't female!!" ****storm is. 

"We Asari are monogendered, Commander. 'Male' and 'female' do not have any real meaning for us. We do, however, have maternal instincts, so perhaps we would fill what you'd consider a female role."

So, she tells you that the Asari don't think of themselves in terms of genders.  That's what most people will reference when they try to claim that Asari aren't women.  Except that, in the very next sentence, she adds that they're probably females by any other species' standards.  So basically, the whole "aren't female" debate stems from people listening to one portion of a converstion and disregarding what she says immediately afterwards.

<_< And I'm not even going to touch the people claiming that they are asexual, which is just even more laughably inaccurate.

[Sabul]

BrianWilly: Haha. I could not agree more.

[AnathamaDye]

Hopefully they somehow re-enable them, without the use of modding (cause you can only do that with the PC version). But if not i'd at least like to see there be other options in the third game.



(Lol, I loved that vid with Shepard and Kaiden. "Kaiden I don't believe i've had the pleasure of you serving under me". Love that line)

[Jimmy Fury]

Collider wrote...
Like I said, you are assuming things here. We have 0% indication that gay men are not acceptable. That would run contradictory to Dragon Age, yes, Zevran is bisexual, but the homosexual romance option is there. Gay male romances were never in Mass Effect to begin with.

And this is where some of the difference comes in.
Some people (not myself, but others) see that there may be an indication that gay men aren't acceptable because the options were explored in development of both games and then ultimately removed while bi-female and lesbian options remained.

As I mentioned before, there are 4 females that fem.Shep can express interest in: Liara, Kelly, Samara, and Morinth. There were 2 men that were explored as romance options for male.Shep: Kaidan and Thane.
While the Ashley option was also removed from 1 along with Kaidan, 3 new f/f interests were brought in with ME2.
I agree that the inclusion of Zevran and the m/m option in Jade Empire show that BioWare, as a company, doesn't have a problem.
But I think it's also reasonable for people to perceive that the ME team is different.
Again, I don't neccesarily agree with that, but it is still a reasonable perception.

[Sabul]

AnathamaDye wrote...

Hopefully they somehow re-enable them, without the use of modding (cause you can only do that with the PC version). But if not i'd at least like to see there be other options in the third game.

(Lol, I loved that vid with Shepard and Kaiden. "Kaiden I don't believe i've had the pleasure of you serving under me". Love that line)

I would love them doing so. However I am not going to hold my breath for a patch. A gay or bisexual character or just ME3 seem far more likely. Still it would be wonderful if they would permit those who wanted the option to download an optional patch. I would download it and replay the games just to see how a m/m would carry over.

I adore that quote as well. Amused me very much.

Modifié par Sabul, 14 février 2010 - 08:42 .

[Sabul]

I am sorry Jimmy Fury. :c

[Jimmy Fury]

I still think an expansion would be a good option for bringing in a new Char.
That's just personal preference though. I'd like to see him fleshed out with a proper personality and involved prior to the events of 3.
Quickie DLC wouldn't have much personality (zaeed...) and introducing in 3 might feel rushed. Expansion is the middle ground between them though!

Sabul wrote...
I am sorry Jimmy Fury. :c

Wha?

Modifié par Jimmy Fury, 14 février 2010 - 08:54 .

[BrianWilly]

Collider wrote...

Uh, no. Ever consider that the new characters are simply not homosexual or bisexual? There is no quota that Bioware must fulfill, and you are simply reading too much into this if you think that Bioware is making a political statement whatsoever.

Why, exactly, are all of the new characters "simply not homosexual or bisexual"?  You act like these are real-life people or something, but these are game characters designed from the ground up.  The reason none of them are gay male options is because someone specifically decided otherwise.

There are six new romantic storyline options, with a diverse range of personalities, races, even species.  Not a one of them is a m/m romantic option.  Hell, that's the textbook dictionary definition of excluding something.

The option was intentionally unimplemented, twice in a row now.  And that sends a message, intentionally or not.  Or do you think that they can only come across as specifically exclusionary towards a demongraphic if they really mean it?  Of course I don't think that Bioware is run by a hoard of rednecked bigots lounging around trying to find ways to be homophobic.  That does not mean that their actions can't come across a certain way.

Collider wrote...

Bull****. If there are no homosexual characters in Halo, does that mean Bungie falls under any of these ridiculous quotes? NO.

I have already, specifically highlighted reasons why people are targeting Bioware instead of Bungie, but if you want other reasons: Halo does not offer character customization.  Halo is not a role-playing game in terms of storyline choices and development.  Halo does not feature romantic subplots where you pick between multiple options.  The game design of Mass Effect 1 and 2 is such that it would accomadate a gay option very well, without seeming out of place, whereas the game design of games like Halo does not lend itself nearly as well to that sort of content.

Bioware has already shown itself willing to be supportive of gay content in their RPGs.  But the fact that they were supportive in the past and yet not in this instance makes this instance all the more notable and noticeable.

Collider wrote...

Like I said, you are assuming things here. We have 0% indication that gay men are not acceptable. That would run contradictory to Dragon Age, yes, Zevran is bisexual, but the homosexual romance option is there. Gay male romances were never in Mass Effect to begin with.

The fact that they were never in Mass Effect, and continues not to be in Mass Effect 2, sends the message that gay women are acceptable, yet gay men aren't.  That's the entire point, the fact that they have been excluded.  And, again, the fact that you can be gay in Dragon Age and not in the Mass Effect games makes the exclusion more conspicuous, not less!

Collider wrote...

Obviously, there are limits to roleplaying in general, independent of sexuality. You cannot, for example, join Saren. Nor can you express interests in Joker, EDI, or whatever.

Why is this specific limit limited specifically to gay male romances?  How come this so-called roleplaying limit doesn't apply to Dragon Age or Jade Empire?  There is no limit beyond what the developers themselves implement.  In this case they implemented nine romantic subplots across two games that you can choose from, without any gay male option.  That.  Sends.  A.  Message.

Modifié par BrianWilly, 14 février 2010 - 09:00 .

[Sabul]

Jimmy Fury: That is a wonderful idea! Another reason we need to make that list of suggestions. That really is a very good idea.

I felt guilty that Collider and myself do not seem to fight as much as others.

Modifié par Sabul, 14 février 2010 - 09:04 .

[Jimmy Fury]

Oh, forgot to mention the other reason Expansion is still on the top of my list lol:

They're apparently already planning DLC to tie ME: Redemption's story back into the game. Seems likely that something like this would be big enough to warrant an expansion instead of just a 15 minute DLC pack (i'm looking at you Ostagar... grrrrr)
So... if they're already doing it...

(don't feel bad about that! I just find it peculiar that the overall tone is so different. Having thought more about it I realized JamesMoriarty and I are like that too.)

-edit-
GAH 4 am. Must sleep...

Modifié par Jimmy Fury, 14 février 2010 - 09:07 .

[AnathamaDye]

Jimmy Fury wrote...
They're apparently already planning DLC to tie ME: Redemption's story back into the game.

Really!  Looking forward to that...

But yeah I'd like to see a huge expansion like what they are doing with DragonAge.

[Sabul]

I am looking forward to the tie in DLC. It is another wonderful idea on your part as well. An expansion would indeed be perfect.

Oh, yes. JamesMoriarty is one fellow who is not very fond of me. Thank you though.

Sleep well.

Modifié par Sabul, 14 février 2010 - 09:14 .

[Homebound]

I support the Same-Sex romance option. As long as it's going to be well-executed and isn't something that just gets slapped on.

[Sabul]

Haha. I would love a well executed character. I just had a odd thought. It would have been amusing if they gave you the option to select your assistant. Either picking a male version of Kelly or the female version of her. Obviously they would have different names and personalities. Both would have similar views of sexuality however that is being bisexual. Consider it a very minor side quest of interviewing potential assistants at the bar on Omega. Just talking to them and seeing who you like more for your crew. Not a very complex character but it would be easy I imagine. Still ME2 does not like times without action.

Modifié par Sabul, 14 février 2010 - 09:28 .

[Fade9wayz]

That could be a thought for ME3.

I did see Kelly melt in my first playthrough and am quite reluctant to change that. I find that having some casualties in my crew make the game more realistic and immersive, even if it was uite distressing to watch. I doubt she'll be part of ME3 since Bioware needs to cover such contingencies.



Besides, I always thought she was just a Cerberus spy who wouldn't hesitate stabbing my Shepy in the back if she strayed too far from cerberus interests...

[AnathamaDye]

Fade9wayz wrote...

That could be a thought for ME3.
I did see Kelly melt in my first playthrough and am quite reluctant to change that. I find that having some casualties in my crew make the game more realistic and immersive, even if it was uite distressing to watch. I doubt she'll be part of ME3 since Bioware needs to cover such contingencies.

Besides, I always thought she was just a Cerberus spy who wouldn't hesitate stabbing my Shepy in the back if she strayed too far from cerberus interests...

I couldn't stand Kelly, but it was nice to have an assistant inform you of things.

[Beregar]

Collider wrote...
I am not intentionally trying to seem hostile. I have no ill will towards you. I am simply giving reason to my arguments and my opinions.

Judging by the posts you seem pretty hostile as of late. Can you remind me again why you are opposing the gay romance option if you don't have any ill will towards gay community or those interested in having bi/homosexual romance option? What exactly is your problem with gay romances?

I mean I'm the first one to admit I'm a bit weirded out if a woman tries to hit on me, it's sort of uncomfortable situation since I've no interest in them so I suppose I can relate to that somewhat. Yet I've no problems with Bioware including hetero romances in the game as I can always ignore them - even if I have to admit I'd prefer they spent their resources on things that cater to my interests (i.e. gay romance).

If the argument is backed with resource issue (which I hope it is not) it has been pointed out multiple times that they have spent at least some resources on gay romances already but for some reason didn't release the game with one. That's worse than not developing one at all, right?

I think in the end it has a lot to do with some people just not wanting a gay romance because of some personal values/issues. I can't really relate to those issues too much since I've hard time seeing bi- or homosexuals as anything out of ordinary - I mean that's like admitting there's something wrong with me and I don't think that's the case, but hey, I think there's something wrong with people who have problem with homosexual relationships so perhaps I'm a hypocrite?