1769 réponses à ce sujet

[Collider]

Lightice_av wrote...

I consider storytelling and writing to the be most important, over filling a romance quota. As it so happens, aside from some female characters, all of the characters in Mass Effect are heterosexual. Sexuality isn't exactly a light switch.

Indeed it's not - it's a sliding scale. It's perfectly possible that some characters are bisexual but closeted. Personally I would think that making an existing male character a M/M option would be economically more feasible than adding in an entirely new character,

I really do not want this to happen. Leave the characters as is, within their respective game. "Make" Kaidan bisexual in ME3 if you must, but leave them as is in ME1. If you think about it, it can make for more dramatic storytelling, if up until now (ME3) Kaidan had been
hiding his feelings or whatever.

as it saves time and money in designing the character, inserting them into the story and writing and acting lines for them.

Assuming the character is created just as an M/M option.

[catabuca]

Collider wrote...

catabuca wrote...

Collider - the thing about time and money on missions/storytelling over romance quotas is all well and good, but the point many of us have been making is that hetero romance options have increased in ME2, and the addition of Tali and Garrus appear to have been at the behest of fans wanting to see that content ...

The demand for Tali and Garrus was larger than the demand for M/M options.

I think what most of us would have preferred to see is a bi/gay option in there in lieu of perhaps 1 of the current romance options. That wouldn't have meant any more writing or money than they already spent to give us what is currently there.

Most of you?
?????
The bisexual and gay community are a minority of the Mass Effect player base.

Most of us on this thread - sorry, I should have been clearer. 

[Jimmy Fury]

Collider wrote...
As it so happens, aside from some female characters, all of the characters in Mass Effect are heterosexual.

I wouldn't say "all" because there are plenty of NPC's who haven't mentioned anything that would indicate a sexuality, which is why I'd prefer one of them to anyone that was previously romancable. The bi argument could also come into play but it's not my favorite idea so I'll leave that to someone else to debate.

Actually...
In the interest of debate and discussion (and to save the nays some time), I personally think Kaidan/Ashley are the least likely and least feasible options for a same-sex romance.
In order to include a s/s romance with either of them, BioWare would have to do 1 of 2 things. Either:
1: Patch ME1 and ME2 to unlock those paths from the beging, thus allowing the same story to flow through all 3 games using the existing dialogue.
-or-
2: Include specific dialogue in 3 that explains why they weren't available as options in 1. Thus conserving story integrity and making them fully fleshed out romance storylines.

The problem then becomes that neither of these are entirely reasonable options for BioWare.
1: Companies don't patch 3 year old games. And that would be if they patched it now. If they waited until 3 it would be 5 or 6 years old. For a game that no longer brings in top sales it's financially unsound to use resrouces (re-recorded dialogue to fix the "ma'am" and "sir" lines, and new animations to fix the steamy-scene) on an older game.
2: Would require twice as much VA work, scripting, and conversation-option-programming.  Dialogue would have to be different for those players who have a romance with them already, so Kaidan's VA, Ash's Va, Meer, and Hale would all have to record dialogue for both paths. 1 set for existing romances and 1 set for new romances.
It would be twice as much work as using a new character and just having Meer and Hale record the same lines.

[Lightice_av]

I really do not want this to happen. Leave the characters as is, within their respective game. "Make" Kaidan bisexual in ME3 if you must, but leave them as is in ME1. If you think about it, it can make for more dramatic storytelling, if up until now (ME3) Kaidan had been

hiding his feelings or whatever.

You think they would remake the games entirely just for the gay romance? I rather doubt it. I'm not speaking for any one character - that's not my cup of tea, so I don't really have the right to say anything for the matter, I'm just defending equal opportunities.

But if there actually came some sort of Director's Cut of the three games, then it would make sense to add in all the content that had to be cut out, which included the same-sex human romances that were recorded but not implemented in the game. But that's a whole different subject matter.

Assuming the character is created just as an M/M option.

Indeed. I don't see that happening - as you say, the gay fanbase is the minority. It's simpler and cheaper just make an existing character (either from the first two games or just ME3) bi.

[Collider]

Jimmy Fury wrote...

Collider wrote...
As it so happens, aside from some female characters, all of the characters in Mass Effect are heterosexual.

I wouldn't say "all" because there are plenty of NPC's who haven't mentioned anything that would indicate a sexuality, which is why I'd prefer one of them to anyone that was previously romancable. The bi argument could also come into play but it's not my favorite idea so I'll leave that to someone else to debate.

That's true. But for those who have expressed some sort of sexual interest, they've all been heterosexual with the exception of some female characters.

using a new character and just having Meer and Hale record the same lines.

Sounds good to me.

[catabuca]

Collider wrote...

I really do not want this to happen. Leave the characters as is, within their respective game. "Make" Kaidan bisexual in ME3 if you must, but leave them as is in ME1. If you think about it, it can make for more dramatic storytelling, if up until now (ME3) Kaidan had been hiding his feelings or whatever.

I know from my standpoint this is what I've wanted all along, for Kaidan to be a bi option in ME3.

I agree that it is not only unfeasible from a patching/money etc standpoint but also incredibly and weirdly immersion-breaking to go back and 'flip a switch' that unlocks some previously hidden dialogue and animations in the first ME.

In my case, having Kaidan admit his feelings for manShep in ME3 would fit perfectly into the backstory I've created for them throughout ME1 and 2 anyway. I imagine most (people who kept manShep single because he was gay - not most people in the world ever) probably did a similar thing, if they liked Kaidan at least.

[Collider]

Lightice_av wrote...
You think they would remake the games entirely just for the gay romance? I rather doubt it. I'm not speaking for any one character - that's not my cup of tea, so I don't really have the right to say anything for the matter, I'm just defending equal opportunities.
But if there actually came some sort of Director's Cut of the three games, then it would make sense to add in all the content that had to be cut out, which included the same-sex human romances that were recorded but not implemented in the game. But that's a whole different subject matter.

No, I don't think it would happen. Kaidan was just an example, I have the same opinion about them patching ME2 for gay romances - don't do it. Leave the characters as is, I'd hate for them to retcon. If the writers are so inclined, have ME1 and ME2 characters to be bisexual romances in ME3, or better yet create new characters that happen to be gay or bisexual.

Indeed. I don't see that happening - as you say, the gay fanbase is the minority. It's simpler and cheaper just make an existing character (either from the first two games or just ME3) bi.

It's not necessarily cheaper. For one thing, you need to able to
a) Create patches.
Deliver them (DLC)

Both of which would cost time and money. ultimately, it may be better just to create a character that happens to be gay and bisexual. Thereby, you've both a new character with a new background and a new role, but at the same time providing something for gay or bisexual players.

[catabuca]

Collider, I think when Lightice_av says 'either from the first two games or just ME3' I don't think they mean go back to retcon, just allow that existing ME1/2 character to be bi in ME3, which is what you're saying too. I could be wrong though. I think this is where half the confusion is coming from - a misunderstanding.

[Arik7]

catabuca wrote...
I agree that it is not only unfeasible from a patching/money etc standpoint but also incredibly and weirdly immersion-breaking to go back and 'flip a switch' that unlocks some previously hidden dialogue and animations in the first ME.

There is precident for this.  Garrus and Tail were not romanceable at all in ME1, and showed ZERO signs of attraction to Shepard, yet they are in love with Shepard in ME2, because that's what the fans have been asking for.

In fact, BioWare "turned" KOTOR's Juhani from bisexual to lesbian with a patch...

Modifié par Arik7, 14 février 2010 - 08:37 .

[Collider]

No kidding. A lot of times I've responded to people in this thread, we were just misinterpretation each other. I've been suspected to be less than accepting of homosexuality for instance, which is hardly the case.

[Ninja Mage]

I don't necessarily agree that the ''gay mass effect'' fanbase is smaller than the Tali, and Garrus group. I was one of the supporters for a Garrus romance in the first place, so Collider really has no right to say our group is smaller

[Collider]

Arik7 wrote...
There is precident for this.  Garrus and Tail were nor romanceable at all in ME1, and showed ZERO signs of attraction to Shepard, yet they are in love with Shepard in ME2, because that's what the fans have been asking for.

It's not the same thing as patching Mass Effect 1 or 2. Mass Effect 2 is an entirely new game. Tali has had a crush on male Shepard, but was too timid or was too afraid Shepard wouldn't return affections. I'm sure the dangerousness of intimacy played a part as well. Garrus, have no idea, but romantic relationships can and often are built upon the precedence of friendship, romance doesn't need to be immediate.

[Lightice_av]

No, I don't think it would happen. Kaidan was just an example, I have the same opinion about them patching ME2 for gay romances - don't do it. Leave the characters as is, I'd hate for them to retcon. If the writers are so inclined, have ME1 and ME2 characters to be bisexual romances in ME3, or better yet create new characters that happen to be gay or bisexual.

I don't see patches or DLC coming, if that's what you mean. I'm talking about ME3 alone. My hypothesizing about a Director's Cut is just that; a baseless hypothesis, largely irrelevant to the conversation at hand. But yes, catabuca is right - I'm talking about using a character who isn't specifically created as a gay LI in ME3, since making one from scratch for that sole purpose would probably be considered waste of resources.

[KumoriOokami]

Ninja Mage wrote...



I don't necessarily agree that the ''gay mass effect'' fanbase is smaller than the Tali, and Garrus group. I was one of the supporters for a Garrus romance in the first place, so Collider really has no right to say our group is smaller

I agree there's definite overlap here.  ^^  I was definitely a supporter of both!

[Collider]

Ninja Mage wrote...
I don't necessarily agree that the ''gay mass effect'' fanbase is smaller than the Tali, and Garrus group. I was one of the supporters for a Garrus romance in the first place, so Collider really has no right to say our group is smaller

It's pretty clear. Gays and bisexuals are a minority within the world in the first place. The same is held true within the video game fanbase, and you've narrowed down the results even further since Mass Effect 1 was only one game. Tali and Garrus were most popular for male and female players respectively.

[Ninja Mage]

Collider wrote...

Ninja Mage wrote...
I don't necessarily agree that the ''gay mass effect'' fanbase is smaller than the Tali, and Garrus group. I was one of the supporters for a Garrus romance in the first place, so Collider really has no right to say our group is smaller

It's pretty clear. Gays and bisexuals are a minority within the world in the first place. The same is held true within the video game fanbase, and you've narrowed down the results even further since Mass Effect 1 was only one game. Tali and Garrus were most popular for male and female players respectively.

No, you're just theorizing based on what you think you know. Bisexuals and Gays make up a LARGE part of the mass effect community, and you can't assume our group wasn't for the inclusion of Garrus and Tali as bisexual romance options

[catabuca]

Collider wrote...

Arik7 wrote...
There is precident for this.  Garrus and Tail were nor romanceable at all in ME1, and showed ZERO signs of attraction to Shepard, yet they are in love with Shepard in ME2, because that's what the fans have been asking for.

It's not the same thing as patching Mass Effect 1 or 2. Mass Effect 2 is an entirely new game. Tali has had a crush on male Shepard, but was too timid or was too afraid Shepard wouldn't return affections. I'm sure the dangerousness of intimacy played a part as well. Garrus, have no idea, but romantic relationships can and often are built upon the precedence of friendship, romance doesn't need to be immediate.

You're right, it's not the same as patching the game. Bioware didn't go back and unlock a romancable Tali and Garrus for ME1 Shepards, but allowed the relationships to evolve into romancable in ME2. It's that progression I would love to see open up in ME3 for Kaidan.

It's interesting you say Tali has had a crush on Shepard ... I'd say that's a great example of how each player will interpret behaviour in different ways. In my ME1 playthroughs Tali didn't have a crush on Shepard but they had a very honest friendship (apart from the playthrough where he wouldn't let her have the Geth tech - that went sour fast lol). Yeah, in ME2 it's pretty obvious she is crushing on him even if you don't want to initiate a relationship with her, and I actually wish this wasn't so because I see their relationship as big brother/little sister.

Along the same lines, even though the majority of people didn't see this, in my ME1 playthroughs I imagine Kaidan attracted to Shepard, and it's pretty convincing. Perhaps that's because he was originally written to be bi, so most of his heart-to-hearts with Shepard would have lead to the flirtatious options femShep had.

[Arik7]

Collider wrote...

Arik7 wrote...
There is precident for this.  Garrus and Tail were nor romanceable at all in ME1, and showed ZERO signs of attraction to Shepard, yet they are in love with Shepard in ME2, because that's what the fans have been asking for.

It's not the same thing as patching Mass Effect 1 or 2. Mass Effect 2 is an entirely new game. Tali has had a crush on male Shepard, but was too timid or was too afraid Shepard wouldn't return affections. I'm sure the dangerousness of intimacy played a part as well. Garrus, have no idea, but romantic relationships can and often are built upon the precedence of friendship, romance doesn't need to be immediate.

In ME1, Tali had more of a crush on the Normandy than Shepard.  There were more signs of Kaidan having a crush on the Male Shepard.   And that is not surprising considering that Kaidan was originally planned as a bisexual option, while Tali was not intended to be a romanceable characted in the first place.  I bet the devs were surprised people wanted to romance Tali and made the changes happen.

[Collider]

Ninja Mage wrote...
No, you're just theorizing based on what you think you know. Bisexuals and Gays make up a LARGE part of the mass effect community, and you can't assume our group wasn't for the inclusion of Garrus and Tali as bisexual romance options

Hold on. You're criticizing me for assuming that the Tali and Garrus fans were larger than the gay/bi mass effect community, yet you are ASSUMING that the bisexual and gays make a large part of the mass effect community?
????

Also, most people wanting Tali and Garrus for male and female respectively, and were most interested in heterosexual romances with them.

[Collider]

Arik7 wrote...

In ME1, Tali had more of a crush on the Normandy than Shepard.  There were more signs of Kaidan having a crush on the Male Shepard.

That's truly wishful thinking there, buddy. If Tali did not show any signs, then neither did Kaidan. May I remind you that you are just using your own stereotypes to make yourself think that Kaidan was crushing on male shepard. I am not drawing my belief that Tali had a crush solely on Mass Effect 1, as it was evidenced by Tali's own words in Mass Effect 2. I did the romance, and it was pretty clear - as Tali said she was watching Shepard - crushing on him basically - and had never thought he would see beyond her mask for who she really is.

I bet the devs were surprised people wanted to romance Tali and made the changes happen.

This is what actually happened. They didn't expect people to like Tali, but when they showed that they did, they made her a romance option in ME2.

[Lightice_av]

Hold on. You're criticizing me for assuming that the Tali and Garrus fans were larger than the gay/bi mass effect community, yet you are ASSUMING that the bisexual and gays make a large part of the mass effect community?

I would say that if you count in the straight gamers who like to play the opposite gender for various reasons (in my case preference for Jennifer Hale as a voice actor), you will get a very sizable playerbase interested in the same-sex romance option. Just the gay fanbase not so much.



I clearly remember that a fair portion of the Tali-supporters would have been interested in a same-sex option as well, and judging by some audio files the devs were planning it as well, but then dropped it for some reason.

[catabuca]

I can't comment on which group is bigger ... and I think it's a pretty pointless train of argument. It doesn't really matter. Either way, the amount of people who wanted Tali/Garrus to be romancable and espoused those preferences on here make up a pretty small proportion of the people who bought the game in the first place. I think the key is that the majority of Mass Effect players don't post online, and in addition the majority of Mass Effect players don't really mind either way what happens as long as they get a great gaming experience out of it.



Everyone on these forums is a vocal minority. And long may we all be allowed to be vocal.

[Collider]

catabuca wrote...
It's interesting you say Tali has had a crush on Shepard ... I'd say that's a great example of how each player will interpret behaviour in different ways. In my ME1 playthroughs Tali didn't have a crush on Shepard but they had a very honest friendship (apart from the playthrough where he wouldn't let her have the Geth tech - that went sour fast lol). Yeah, in ME2 it's pretty obvious she is crushing on him even if you don't want to initiate a relationship with her, and I actually wish this wasn't so because I see their relationship as big brother/little sister.

Tali pretty clearly tells she had a long standing crush with him, if you romance her. She tells about how she watched Shepard from afar, admiring him as he saved the galaxy. She never gave indication of her crush because she was afraid that Shepard wouldn't be able to see past her suit. It would have been better if there was some subtle awkwardness or signs on Tali's part around male shepard in ME1, but the developers did not foresee Tali's popularity.

Along the same lines, even though the majority of people didn't see this, in my ME1 playthroughs I imagine Kaidan attracted to Shepard, and it's pretty convincing. Perhaps that's because he was originally written to be bi, so most of his heart-to-hearts with Shepard would have lead to the flirtatious options femShep had.

The difference being that you've undeniable evidence about Tali, whereas Kaidan is much more of interpretation, fueled by personal wish or stereotype. Personally, I never saw an ounce of bisexuality within Kaidan. Being sensitive is not an indication of being bisexual or liking the same gender, that is just a stereotype.

[catabuca]

Collider wrote...

Arik7 wrote...

In ME1, Tali had more of a crush on the Normandy than Shepard.  There were more signs of Kaidan having a crush on the Male Shepard.

That's truly wishful thinking there, buddy. If Tali did not show any signs, then neither did Kaidan. May I remind you that you are just using your own stereotypes to make yourself think that Kaidan was crushing on male shepard. I am not drawing my belief that Tali had a crush solely on Mass Effect 1, as it was evidenced by Tali's own words in Mass Effect 2. I did the romance, and it was pretty clear - as Tali said she was watching Shepard - crushing on him basically - and had never thought he would see beyond her mask for who she really is.

I bet the devs were surprised people wanted to romance Tali and made the changes happen.

This is what actually happened. They didn't expect people to like Tali, but when they showed that they did, they made her a romance option in ME2.

Read my earlier post - we ALL read different things into the behaviours of NPCs in ME1 and 2. If you didn't see Kaidan crushing that's fine, but others did, and you can't tell people what they did or didn't see or feel, just as I can't tell you that you must have seen Kaidan crushing. We see what we want to see. All I'd say is what I said in my ealier post - the fact Kaidan was originally written to be bi means it isn't out of the realms of possibility that some people would read his behaviour in that way. If you didn't, that's okay too.

Tali's behaviour and words in ME2 aren't really indicative of what players saw when they played ME1, since they hadn't written it at that point. It's very easy for the two games and types of behaviours to be conflated after playing ME2 to make sense of what you've just seen. And that's fine, but not everyone saw it.

[Jimmy Fury]

Collider wrote...
It's pretty clear. Gays and bisexuals are a minority within the world in the first place. The same is held true within the video game fanbase, and you've narrowed down the results even further since Mass Effect 1 was only one game. Tali and Garrus were most popular for male and female players respectively.

I mentioned before, either on this thread or the old one, that debating percentages is ineffective since we have no actual numbers in terms of the ME fanbase.
When you narrow down the portion of a population being viewed, you also alter the percentages of the demographics within that population. The majority of the overall world population is not neccesarily still the majority when looking at a small portion, in this case ME fans.
In fact, 60 of the world's population resides in Asia. Even though the majority of human beings are therefore Asian, Asians are not the majority in Europe, Africa, Australia, or the Americas. The percentages change when you remove India and China from the population you're viewing since they are the two most highly populated countries on earth.

Similarly one can not apply world population statistics to the ME fanbase. We don't have any statistics on the ME fanbase, so any debate there is just speculation on everyone's part.