1769 réponses à ce sujet

[Collider]

Lightice_av wrote...
I would say that if you count in the straight gamers who like to play the opposite gender for various reasons (in my case preference for Jennifer Hale as a voice actor), you will get a very sizable playerbase interested in the same-sex romance option. Just the gay fanbase not so much.

As most people play as their own gender primarily, there is larger demand for Tali and Garrus to be heterosexual romance options.

I clearly remember that a fair portion of the Tali-supporters would have been interested in a same-sex option as well, and judging by some audio files the devs were planning it as well, but then dropped it for some reason.

I have not really seen this. I've discussed this matter with other Tali supporters, and the consensus seems to be that Tali should remain a heterosexual option only or they don't care as long as male shepards can romance them.

[Collider]

catabuca wrote...
Read my earlier post - we ALL read different things into the behaviours of NPCs in ME1 and 2.

Yes, I'm aware of your opinion. We can interpret things however we want. However, you must know there is a difference between a liberal interpretation and something more blatant.

Tali's behaviour and words in ME2 aren't really indicative of what players saw when they played ME1, since they hadn't written it at that point. It's very easy for the two games and types of behaviours to be conflated after playing ME2 to make sense of what you've just seen. And that's fine, but not everyone saw it.

Like I said, the difference being that Tali provided evidence for her crush personally and directly. She gave reason for her timidness in ME1. Kaidan has not done so.

[Arik7]

Collider wrote...
May I remind you that you are just using your own stereotypes to make yourself think that Kaidan was crushing on male shepard.

Not stereotypes.  Unused VA recordings confirm that Kaidan was planned as M/M romance option.  There is no such recordings for Tali.  Try chosing Kaidan over Ashley on Vilmire.  The conversation afterwards gives me the vibe.  I was shocked it didn't go anywhere.

Collider wrote...
I am not drawing my belief that Tali had a crush solely on Mass Effect 1, as it was evidenced by Tali's own words in Mass Effect 2. I did the romance, and it was pretty clear - as Tali said she was watching Shepard - crushing on him basically - and had never thought he would see beyond her mask for who she really is.

Obviously the writers had to explain Tali's sudden reversal on Shepard as a romantic interest.  The same could be done with any character.   Perhaps in ME3, you'll find out that Grunt has had a secret crush on you all along.  LOL  ;-)

[Collider]

Arik7 wrote...
Not stereotypes.  Unused VA recordings confirm that Kaidan was planned as M/M romance option.

Yep. But they were as you said. Unused. To me, it just seemed like Kaidan and Shepard were being friends as most.

Obviously the writers had to explain Tali's sudden reversal on Shepard as a romantic interest.  The same could be done with any character.   Perhaps in ME3, you'll find out that Grunt has had a secret crush on you all along.  LOL  ;-)

Now that would be interesting.

[catabuca]

Collider wrote...

catabuca wrote...
Read my earlier post - we ALL read different things into the behaviours of NPCs in ME1 and 2.

Yes, I'm aware of your opinion. We can interpret things however we want. However, you must know there is a difference between a liberal interpretation and something more blatant.

Tali's behaviour and words in ME2 aren't really indicative of what players saw when they played ME1, since they hadn't written it at that point. It's very easy for the two games and types of behaviours to be conflated after playing ME2 to make sense of what you've just seen. And that's fine, but not everyone saw it.

Like I said, the difference being that Tali provided evidence for her crush personally and directly. She gave reason for her timidness in ME1. Kaidan has not done so.

What is liberal to you may be blatant to me, and vice versa. We can go around in circles about this: "I saw this and it's far more obvious than what you saw" - pointless. What I saw was obvious to me, what you saw was obvious to you. That's subjectivity, dude.

As for Tali, she said it in ME2, not ME1. My point was that while I was playing ME1 I never got the feeling she had a crush on Shepard. Yes, in ME2 she's very open about it, but she essentially retcons herself, if the implication is that she felt that way in ME1 too. We know she wasn't written that way in ME1, but it's written into the story in ME2 that way. And that's fine. Kaidan can be written in exactly the same way in ME3.

In my game: In ME1 Tali didn't crush on Shepard. Kaidan did crush on Shepard; in ME2 Tali said she'd always crushed on Shepard (my Shep never thought so, but there ya go), Kaidan still crushes on Shepard; in ME3 I'd love it if Shepard has the option to just be big brother to Tali, and romance Kaidan.

In your/other people's games (for example): In ME1 Tali crushed on Shepard, Kaidan did not; in ME2 Tali said she'd always crushed on Shepard (confirming your beliefs from ME1), Kaidan was either dead or still didn't crush on Shepard; in ME3 Kaidan still won't crush on Shepard, can't speak for Tali.

Both of which are okay. Neither of which are wrong. Both of which are right.

[Jimmy Fury]

I don't know why this just dawned on me...



But comparing dialogues between fem.Shep and m.Shep is metagaming and therefore already breaks immersion.

Garrus only expresses an interest in human females if you're playing as fem.shep. No such interest is ever expressed while playing as a male. Ditto for Tali...

So, it could be argued that opening those options doesn't change anything established in the story because the "defining interests" wouldn't exist where the changes are made...



Just a thought.

[catabuca]

Jimmy Fury wrote...

I don't know why this just dawned on me...

But comparing dialogues between fem.Shep and m.Shep is metagaming and therefore already breaks immersion.
Garrus only expresses an interest in human females if you're playing as fem.shep. No such interest is ever expressed while playing as a male. Ditto for Tali...
So, it could be argued that opening those options doesn't change anything established in the story because the "defining interests" wouldn't exist where the changes are made...

Just a thought.

Perhaps I'm just being overly dim, but you've totally lost me

[Collider]

catabuca wrote...
Both of which are okay. Neither of which are wrong. Both of which are right.

There was nothing retconning about Tali. Specifically, retconing is going back and changing history. I am not arguing with you in that Tali gave no indication in ME1. You're right, she absolutely gave 0 indication she had a crush on Shepard, in ME1.The only reason I believe that she did is because she actually says in ME2. I agree that a lot of it has to do with interpretation, but in this case, Tali, her admittance was pretty blatant. It's rather a moot point however, so the discussion is probably best left finished.

[Collider]

Jimmy Fury wrote...
Garrus only expresses an interest in human females if you're playing as fem.shep.

The conversations with squad mates seems to be cut short if you're the wrong gender or did not pursue romance with them, so it's not like Garrus is the only example. At least Garrus expresses some interest in females before the romance subplot begins.

So, it could be argued that opening those options doesn't change anything established in the story because the "defining interests" wouldn't exist where the changes are made...

Just a thought.

As male and female shepard can act in virtually the exact same way, it would be retconning to go and patch ME1 and ME2 to allow for homosexual romances for existing characters. Suddenly, these characters are bisexual, when they weren't to begin with in the finalized product.

[Lightice_av]

As most people play as their own gender primarily, there is larger demand for Tali and Garrus to be heterosexual romance options.

Most people also aren't xenophilic; people who are interested in Garrus and Tali are also minorities.

I have not really seen this. I've discussed this matter with other Tali supporters, and the consensus seems to be that Tali should remain a heterosexual option only or they don't care as long as male shepards can romance them.

It was prevalent when it wasn't even clear that Tali would be a romance option.

[Jimmy Fury]

Collider wrote...
The conversations with squad mates seems to be cut short if you're the wrong gender or did not pursue romance with them, so it's not like Garrus is the only example. At least Garrus expresses some interest in females before the romance subplot begins.

Do you have an example of that? Not trying to challange the statement, I just don't recall Garrus saying anything about females (of any sort) on either of my playthroughs.

As male and female shepard can act in virtually the exact same way, it would be retconning to go and patch ME1 and ME2 to allow for homosexual romances for existing characters. Suddenly, these characters are bisexual, when they weren't to begin with in the finalized product.

I'm focusing on 2 which is still early enough in it's release that many things can be patched in. I assume the Hammerhead will be usable through the entire game once it comes out. Same with Kasumi. Technically they would both be retconning for anyone who has already finished 1 playthrough.

catabuca wrote...
Perhaps I'm just being overly dim, but you've totally lost me [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/wondering.png[/smilie]

lol I thought i might have been rambling let me try to clarify.
Collider's argument is that patching 2 would be retconning because the characters express interest in the opposite sex.
For Garrus and Tali this is only true if you're playing as the opposite sex.
Garrus only expresses interest in Fem.Shep if you're playing as Fem.Shep. He (again, to my recollection, correct me if I'm wrong) says nothing about females if you play as male.Shep.
So adding in new options only changes these expressed interests if you metagame and compare it to what was expressed in another version of the story (one where Shep was the opposite sex).
Plus, now that I've brought up DLC, it only changes future playthroughs. None of the conversations held with Tali or Garrus in previous playthroughs would be any different because you've already finished the conversations...

but again, these are just thoughts. Personally I have no interest in romancing Garrus or Tali.

[Collider]

Jimmy Fury wrote...
Do you have an example of that? Not trying to challange the statement, I just don't recall Garrus saying anything about females (of any sort) on either of my playthroughs.

It's when he starts talking about sparring on Turian spacecraft. He implies "sparring" in the bedroom with a female turian.

[Collider]

Jimmy Fury wrote...
Collider's argument is that patching 2 would be retconning because the characters express interest in the opposite sex.
For Garrus and Tali this is only true if you're playing as the opposite sex.

It's because Shepard can act the same way Male or Female, but Garrus or Tali STILL can't be romanced if you are the same gender as them. So obviously, the gender that Shepard is plays a role in the attraction.

[Jimmy Fury]

Collider wrote...
It's when he starts talking about sparring on Turian spacecraft. He implies "sparring" in the bedroom with a female turian.

hmmm.... my mistake then. I guess I need to talk to Garrus more because I missed that part entirely lol

[Arik7]

Collider wrote...

Jimmy Fury wrote...
Collider's argument is that patching 2 would be retconning because the characters express interest in the opposite sex.
For Garrus and Tali this is only true if you're playing as the opposite sex.

It's because Shepard can act the same way Male or Female, but Garrus or Tali STILL can't be romanced if you are the same gender as them. So obviously, the gender that Shepard is plays a role in the attraction.

Again, neither Tali nor Garrus showed any signs of attraction to Shepard in ME1, until the writers made it happen, re-writing some of the story in the process.

Modifié par Arik7, 14 février 2010 - 09:55 .

[Collider]

Arik7 wrote...
Again, neither Tali nor Garrus showed any signs of attraction to Shepard in ME1, until the writers made it happened, re-writing some of the story in the process.

That's not rewriting. You seriously don't think that people HAVE to tell the object of their crush that they're interested in them? Not to mention, people can develop interest over time, it does not need to be immediate. So there is no retconning involved, I'm afraid.

[Arik7]

Collider wrote...

Arik7 wrote...
Again, neither Tali nor Garrus showed any signs of attraction to Shepard in ME1, until the writers made it happened, re-writing some of the story in the process.

That's not rewriting. You seriously don't think that people HAVE to tell the object of their crush that they're interested in them? Not to mention, people can develop interest over time, it does not need to be immediate. So there is no retconning involved, I'm afraid.

That's an excellent argument...... for writing-in same-sex romances for Garrus, Tali, or Kaidan...

[Collider]

Arik7 wrote...
That's an excellent argument...... for writing-in same-sex romances for Garrus, Tali, or Kaidan...

For the next game, maybe. Not for retconning by patching it into ME1 or ME2. And you have the fact that these characters just might be...heterosexual.

Modifié par Collider, 14 février 2010 - 09:59 .

[Arik7]

Collider wrote...

Arik7 wrote...
That's an excellent argument...... for writing-in same-sex romances for Garrus, Tali, or Kaidan...

Yea, for the next game. Not for retconning by patching it into ME1 or ME2.

BioWAre did it with KOTOR when a patch turned Juhani into a lesbian.  It could still be done.

[Jimmy Fury]

I think part of the retconning vs. adding debate comes down to personal interpretation of what constistutes an "established story".

My brain has been preprogrammed by comics to acknowledge multiple realities. For me every playthrough is a different version of Shepard's story. My first playthrough Shepard didn't meet Zaeed until halfway through his mission because that's when I got around to DLing him. In my second playthrough he was the first person who got recruited because he was waiting for me on Omega. I don't see this as a change to the story of my first playthrough, I see it as a different version of the story. I intend to do a number of things differently this time around, to me that changes nothing about how it was done the first time. That story will always be that story, anything new will be another story entirely.

[Ninja Mage]

Collider wrote...

Jimmy Fury wrote...
Collider's argument is that patching 2 would be retconning because the characters express interest in the opposite sex.
For Garrus and Tali this is only true if you're playing as the opposite sex.

It's because Shepard can act the same way Male or Female, but Garrus or Tali STILL can't be romanced if you are the same gender as them. So obviously, the gender that Shepard is plays a role in the attraction.

Only because they specifically removed the option to romance them as the same gender, it has nothing to do with Tali or Garrus liking the same sex or not. This is evidenced by the fact that Tali has FemShep voice files in the game for a romance.

[Collider]

Ninja Mage wrote...
Only because they specifically removed the option to romance them as the same gender, it has nothing to do with Tali or Garrus liking the same sex or not.

Uh, yes it does. If it isn't in the game, then in a practical sense, they are not attracted to the same gender. Developers remove or edit original concepts all the time. CP30 of Star Wars, for example, was originally intended as a used car salesman kind of character. Doesn't mean CP30 IS a used car salesman kind of character. Good writing is achieved through revision.

[Lightice_av]

This is evidenced by the fact that Tali has FemShep voice files in the game for a romance.

She still sounds very flustered in that "sharing the suits"-part, and FemShep sounds positively flirty. There could still be development in that direction, if the writers are so inclined.

[Lopake]

Im not saying this is true but maybe they all have this vision of who the male shepard is and they dont want videos all over youtube of Thane on his lap that is actualy gameplay. It is such a iffy topic.

[Lopake]

Im not saying this is true but maybe they all have this vision of who the male shepard is and they dont want videos all over youtube of Thane on his lap that is actualy gameplay. It is such a iffy topic.