1769 réponses à ce sujet

[ScotGaymer]

I think what a lot of people are misunderstanding with this thread and many of the pro gay shepard posts is that they think we are demanding he MUST be made gay and that all the men characters must be gay too.

Which is patently ridiculous.

All we want is a bit of consistency and fairness.

I wouldnt mind if Shepard were universally straight and Bioware was saying "well you dont have the option because Shepards straight. He was written as a straight man."
Id accept it. And if i REALLY wanted to romance Kaidan/Jacob/Thane/Garrus then id play as FemShep to do so.

The problem is that Shepard ISNT a universally straight man. You can be a FemShep, that can be bisexual or an outright lesbian. And Biowares reply to the question smacks of hypocracy and homophobia; and made me wonder why Ray Muzukya was allowed to open his mouth.
I would like to take this opportunity to point out that you dont have to be outright hateful and aggressive to be homophobic. Ignorance can be homophobic. Such things like "oh gays dont go into the military cos clearly they are too weak and girly". In this example I shall point you once again to Rock Hudson - butchest sexiest actor of his generation and utterly irrevesibly gay.

To the person who said that there are likely to be more lesbians than gays in the military because lesbians are more manly. And lets be honest thats what you said; you may have put it "nicer" but thats exactly what you said. That is utterly ignorant and offensive.
Recent studies show that (at least in the West) the Military is viewed as a very homoerotic profession; that the percentage of gays (and lesbians) in the military is higher than it has ever been and that the percentage is actually more than the percentage of gays (and lesbians) in the general population.

So it is just as likely for ManShep to be homosexual (or bisexual) as it is for FemShep.

And thats what we want. If you are going to include the choice for one; you can include the choice for the other. You can do it like the Sky romance was done in Jade Empire. Most people didnt know you could romance him as a bloke because it was done in a really realistic way for the setting (as apposed to the Dragon Age gay romance which was far too easy to accidentally fall into; but then thats true of ALL the romances not just the gay one).

Its about fairness and equality. And Bioware's "official" response to the question IS homophobic. Ray Muzukya should never be allowed to talk to the press again.

Modifié par FitScotGaymer, 15 février 2010 - 02:06 .

[Sporothrix]

KAT4N4 wrote...
Females being Bisexual is far more common than males being gay (and studies show men being bisexual is bullsh*t).

You mean Bailey's studies - that's a guy who was trying to argue that women don't have sexual orientation and that MTF transsexuals are gay men (if they like men) or deviant straight men (if they like women), so sex change should be forbidden.

Modifié par misoretu9, 15 février 2010 - 03:06 .

[catabuca]

misoretu9 wrote...

KAT4N4 wrote...
Females being Bisexual is far more common than males being gay (and studies show men being bisexual is bullsh*t).

You mean Bailey's studies - that's a guy who was trying to argue that women don't have sexual orientation and that MTF transsexuals are gay men (if they like men) or deviant straight men (if they like women), so sex change should be forbidden.

I hadn't heard of that study. Women don't have sexual orientation? Somebody better tell my libido that. Hot for men, not for women. Or maybe it's all a lie and I'm not real.

[KAT4N4]

misoretu9 wrote...

KAT4N4 wrote...
Females being Bisexual is far more common than males being gay (and studies show men being bisexual is bullsh*t).

You mean Bailey's studies - that's a guy who was trying to argue that women don't have sexual orientation and that MTF transsexuals are gay men (if they like men) or deviant straight men (if they like women), so sex change should be forbidden.

I was trolling about men not being bisexual. It is just less common because it is less socially acceptable.

[comicfan22]

KAT4N4 wrote...


I was trolling about men not being bisexual. It is just less common because it is less socially acceptable.

Why troll at all?

[KAT4N4]

Beregar wrote...

KAT4N4 wrote...

comicfan22 wrote...

It already is a statistical anomaly. You have Kelly, Morinth, Samara and Liara as romance options for female shep but NO romance for a male shep.

Morinth, Samara and Liara are all Asari and I would hardly call Samara a "romance option".

Females being Bisexual is far more common than males being gay (and studies show men being bisexual is bullsh*t). Also factor in that the military would attract far more lesbians than gay men (percentage wise) simply due to the increase of a testosterone mentality. 

It would also be stupid if Shepard suddenly could be gay in ME3 after being straight in the previous two games.

Asari are created to appeal those who like human women. They look much like female of the human species, sound like them and exhibit traits that can be easily identified as feminine. There's very little alien to them - they are comparable to fantasy elves in that regard. Would you be romancing one if "she" sounded like man and looked like one? Even if "she" claimed to be woman.

Also congratulations, yours is the first post so far that made me groan out loud (and not in a good way, mind you). What exactly has "testosterone mentality" to do with lesbians? "Butch" lesbian is a stereotype, so is "effeminate" gays. I'd say most gays are still guys, meaning we look like guys and act* like guys - we just happen to like other men. Similarly I'd say most lesbians look like women and act* like women. Besides you are more likely to have *more* gay men in army than lesbians because men follow military careers more often (and in some countries it's not even possible for women to serve). Doesn't mean they are openly gay, especially in countries where gays can't serve in the army even if women can.

Also my Shepard has never been straight in any of the ME games. He has never had the opportunity to show his gay side. It is a sad thing that the default in future seems to be the DADT policy of Americans. Poor lonely Shepard.


*behaviour stereotypes applied here...

I was trolling that men can't be bisexuals (I believe sexuality is a spectrum).

You talk about a male who likes Asari is straight and a female that likes an Asari is a lesbian/bi. I would argue being sexually attracted to Garrus, Thane and maybe Tali is its own orientation as well. Garrus is too far from human to be considered normal for wanting to sex him up.

Effeminate gays and butch lesbians are stereotypes based on huge truths. Scientifically speaking gay men have more estrogen and lesbians have more testosterone. There are plenty of manly gays and feminine lesbians, but don't pretend that a ton of gay gays are "fabulous" with lisps and that tons of lesbians have short butch hair and wear man clothes. A ton lesbian couples I have met or seen have one feminine lesbian and one extremely butch lesbian.

In regards to the military thing, I said percentage wise. What I meant was per capita (there would be a higher percentage of gay women than in gay men). Think of it like athletics. There are way more men who play sports than women, but there are more lesbians than gay men who play sports per capita. 

[KAT4N4]

comicfan22 wrote...

KAT4N4 wrote...


I was trolling about men not being bisexual. It is just less common because it is less socially acceptable.

Why troll at all?

To spice up the thread. I mean is this really an issue with ME that deserves this much attention? No gay Shepard is not a big deal. Thousands of RPGs have no gay characters and that is fine. I am not opposed to gay characters, I just don't really care if they don't make into a game. It is the developer's artistic option to put it in the game.

I would rather they focus on issues like respeccing squad mates, helmet toggle, more universal content, less tedious minigames (more challenging, less time) etc...

[Snarlinghamster]

As a straight guy I fully support this post. Gay and lesbian relationships are about love, not politics or morality choices. You are born gay or lesbian, it isn't a choice so Bioware should grow a pair and not buckle for fear of a backlash from people who have not yet evolved. I have loved every minute (except planet scanning, yeesh!) of this tremendous adventure Bioware have created for us, it's just a shame that I can't progress my realtionship with some crewmates because of the developers world view. Can't..get...acheivement!

[Jimmy Fury]

KAT4N4 you're back! yay!
I think you may have missed my response last night so I'll sum it up for you:

1: I never said the article was bull****. Someone else did, not me.
2: if you want to bring porn statistics into this, the gay porn industry is dominated by gay-for-pay stars.
3: you claimed there were more bisexual women than men. I provided numbers from a source you cited as evidence that the claim is incorrect.
4: -addition!- "socially acceptable" and "aesthetically pleasing" are subjective. Not to mention variable over time (what is "sexy" now was "starving and poor" a century ago) so it's fairly irrelivant.

[catabuca]

KAT4N4 wrote...



To spice up the thread. I mean is this really an issue with ME that deserves this much attention? No gay Shepard is not a big deal. Thousands of RPGs have no gay characters and that is fine. I am not opposed to gay characters, I just don't really care if they don't make into a game. It is the developer's artistic option to put it in the game.

I would rather they focus on issues like respeccing squad mates, helmet toggle, more universal content, less tedious minigames (more challenging, less time) etc...

As others have said earlier on, it's the fact that Bioware wrote that content, recorded some of it, animated some of it, and then cut it before release, along with Bioware's excellent record on gender and sexuality equality in the past, that means this has garnered so much attention.

People are inquiring why there has been the apparent back-peddle, and are asking that it be reviewed for the future.

[catabuca]

I've spent far too much time on here over the past few days. I'm off to play some Mass Effect



(I'm not giving up the fight though, good people ... I'll be back.)

[Yeled]

catabuca wrote...

As others have said earlier on, it's the fact that Bioware wrote that content, recorded some of it, animated some of it, and then cut it before release, along with Bioware's excellent record on gender and sexuality equality in the past, that means this has garnered so much attention.

People are inquiring why there has been the apparent back-peddle, and are asking that it be reviewed for the future.

Exactly.  Bioware set the bar high in previous games and went so far as to generate content for ME1 and ME2.  The content is conspicous by its absence.

[Lightice_av]

You can choose if your Shepard is into same-sex relations. Thats the player's choice. Instead of complaining about it , why don't you just play the damn game.

The thread exist because the option doesn't. Since the option was there, there wouldn't be a thread. Same-sex option exists only for female Shepard, and it's more shallow than any other option in this game. The thread seeks equal treatment, since Bioware wents its way to confirm that female Shepard can be bisexual or lesbian, and both male and female Shepards can be xenophiles. The one absent option has become rather conspicuous as a result.

[ScotGaymer]

Wolfdemon6666 wrote...

This thread serves no purpose. You can choose if your Shepard is into same-sex relations. Thats the player's choice. Instead of complaining about it , why don't you just play the damn game.

I dont normally respond to posts like this but you sir are clearly an ignoramous.

Yes you can "choose" for ManShep to be gay but you cant romance anyone in the game to express that orientation. Which as I said ordinarily would be "fine".

If i wanted to play gay I could simply have him back off from all the str8s in the crew. And leave it at that.

Its the fact that LesbianFemShep can get it on with Liara, and with Kelly. And GayManShep is left all on his lonesome after the Man-Man romance with Kaidan was cut!

Its entirely unfair. Its pandering to the childish "str8" shooter console crowd who wanna see "MOAR B00BIES!" and given the finger to the more mature of us who would like a bit more fairness and equality in the game. No one would force these people to play a GayManShep just like no one forces the str8 girls to play LesbianFemShep. You can CHOOSE not to pursue romances with Liara and Kelly (if Liara counts as Lesbianism which is grant debatable). Hell you dont even have to be Str8FemShep either. But fact that the option is there for one side of the Gay Community and not for the other. Its entirely unfair.
Ray Muzukya has shown himself up as an ignorant homophobe re his statements about "Shepard is straight" and he should never be allowed to speak in public again.

If "Shepard" was "straight" then why can she be a Lesbian?

Like I said its not about the fact that Shepard is straight. If He/She was straight that would be fine. If there were no romance options that would be fine. Its the fact that according to Ray Muzukya Bioware DELIBERATELY excluded a portion of the population from the game waving us off as irrelevant is an offense.
He may as well have said "the discovery of element zero allowed scientists to research a cure to homosexuality. so the debate is a moot point now." Its just that offensive and ignorant.

As a gay gamer I am actually outraged at Ray Muzukya's comments (not at Bioware tho cos I do understand theres a difference there). And no before anyone assumes; I am not a gung-ho anti-straight gay. I rather enjoyed romancing Ashley in the first game; and absolutely squeeed at the chance to romance Tali (Tali is so roxxors man! lol). And none of the male characters in ME2 jump out at me as gay or bi; or as particularily interesting romance options for ManShep (except possibly Thane).
I was gutted I couldnt get into Kaidans pants; even more so when I realised that you COULD get into his pants and then they CUT it because ManShep couldnt possibly be into blokes cos blokes who arent into blokes clearly cant be manly, butch, or in the military (at least according to Ray Muzukya and some other ignoramouses on here).

Modifié par FitScotGaymer, 15 février 2010 - 06:46 .

[biddypocket]

KAT4N4 wrote...

comicfan22 wrote...

KAT4N4 wrote...


I was trolling about men not being bisexual. It is just less common because it is less socially acceptable.

Why troll at all?

To spice up the thread. I mean is this really an issue with ME that deserves this much attention? No gay Shepard is not a big deal. Thousands of RPGs have no gay characters and that is fine. I am not opposed to gay characters, I just don't really care if they don't make into a game. It is the developer's artistic option to put it in the game.

I would rather they focus on issues like respeccing squad mates, helmet toggle, more universal content, less tedious minigames (more challenging, less time) etc...

Well, I would argue that there are thousands (yes, thousands) who wished they had a same sex romance. That's why we're here, posting our feelings, defending our view from people who are homophobic, and trying to have our voices heard. With that said, why are you posting here? To simply join in with the oppression? If you don't care, then don't argue with us (especially since most of your arguments are completely irrelevant, inaccurate and based in logical fallacy). Just let us have our voice heard.

Modifié par biddypocket, 15 février 2010 - 06:45 .

[Ryzaki]

Here something hilarious and utterly appropriate to whenever this is brought up.

[HaloKT]

Well, you can't really "get it on" with Kelly either. She's just a little fling without any strings attached. You still keep your Liara romance. You don't get the romance achievement. And speaking of Liara - that "romance" is limited to a single kiss when meeting her. Of course, she's the ME1 romance option, so it doesn't really count for ME2. And no achievement to be got here either, soo... no?



I don't even demand equal treatment. That'd be unrealistic anyway. All I ask for is one single, genuine romance option. Just one. And it could even be hidden away so deep within the conversation options that no one would ever risk accidentally choosing it (you know, contrary to my Shep's always trying to get into Jacob's pants even if I don't want to?).



And the reason people ask for this is that it has somehow become a sort of tradition in BioWare games. And why not? It's not going to take away anything from a straight person's game. Quite the contrary even, as many straight people do in fact like to look at a same-sex couple of the opposite gender. The only problem is if you start romancing an NPC automatically after being nice to him/her. But apart from that, I don't really see the issue with it...

[Jimmy Fury]

Don't forget Samara and Morinth. Sure one goes nowhere and one ends terribly but they're still females that fem.Shep can show interest in.

So for those of us keeping score...

Het.M.Shep: 8 persons of interest

Het.F.Shep: 4 persons of interest

Les.F.Shep: 4 persons of interest

Gay.M.Shep: 0 persons of interest

[Stanley Woo]

The last five pages (at least) are full of bickering, personal attacks, and politics. This topic gets a brief moratorium until people can learn to a) debate like civil, mature individuals, and not feed the trolls.



As always, I'm available for questions and concerns, but come on, people. You seemed to have a great community and discussion going on in here, supporting each other, bringing up some good points. And you let one person with an opposing view destroy the thread? Take a breather, then let me know when y'all think you can start a new thread without the hate against haters. Thank you.



End of line.